The Instigator
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
JackSpades64
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points

Is the Christian God from the Bible real?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/25/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,218 times Debate No: 11844
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (4)

 

Mr_Jack_Nixon

Con

So this is a generic topic, I know, but nevertheless it is always an interesting one. Generally the Neg would present why it is impossible a God exists, but I find that it is not correct for someone to go against this particular subject by having to prove a negative before a positive is shown. So I ask that whoever accepts be punctual and dedicated to this. Logical attacks, evidential attacks, those type of attacks are great, but don't just assert that something is true, back it up with something. GO!
JackSpades64

Pro

Mr_Jack_Nixon, I would like to thank you for giving me my first debate. I will let you begin the debate next round. For my main bible, I will use the King James Version, for I am most familiar with this one.
However I want to say one thing before you begin. The con will either think or attempt to say that the Christian God is hypocritical and breaks his own rules.

It is not that he breaks his own rules, but he has superior knowledge and can work through miracles for the greater good. God put these commandments on us, for he has deemed that we are not or were not wise enough to kill for the greater good (which is shown throughout history, even today as in situations with Iraq, John Lennon, and many more).
According to the Exodus 11:4-6 (King James Version)

4And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

5And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

6And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

This shows that God would not be limited to his own commandments. He is omniscient, he knows all, thus he has the wisdom to act for the greater good.

I will end my introduction here.
Debate Round No. 1
Mr_Jack_Nixon

Con

I thank you for accepting the debate, and I'll now refute your arguments for God and add my own against.

*God is not a hypocrite*

So my opponent states that God is not bound by his own commandments that he imposed on man. If God was real this would make logical sense, as the commandments WERE imposed on men and not God himself. But it is not him disobeying the commandments that makes him hypocritical, it is when he talks about how something is MORALLY wrong, and then goes on to do it anyway. For example, in the Bible it states that the spirit of God is one of murdering and killing. (sometimes). (EZ 9:5-7) GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Notice that this first completely changes the nature of God altogether. If this really is an almighty God, then he is surely a hypocrite, always telling us what not to do and doing it anyway. Even if there is some way that it is a divine right this does not take away from the fact that he is a hypocrite. If God is a hypocrite then why worship him? And how is he perfect if he is a hypocrite? Maybe perfect in his own eyes but not man's, so this makes him a hypocrite AND a narcissist.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST GOD

*The Beginning*

It states in the Bible that God created the universe and everything else, and before it there was nothing but Him. Any person of math or science should be able to see the inherent flaw in this. I'll explain: It is mathematically and scientifically accepted that the dimensions length, width, height, and time are all quite infinite. In other words, there is no point in space where you will simply stop and be able to go no further. It is only logical that there is always a further away, hence, the infinity of space. Time is also a dimension. On a time line, it extends infinitely in both directions. There is always an earlier, and a later. Just as in the space scenario, one cannot imagine a point where that time line would just stop, and nothing else was further. In Christianity, though, it says that time and space were created and were not infinite. This goes directly against logic and science, and is proof that God is not real.

*The Infinity Clause*

1. God is infinite.
2. Nothing is equal to God.
3. Space is infinite.
4. Something infinite is equal to something else infinite.
5. Space is equal to God.
6. God can't be real.

*A Form of Occam's Razor*

1. Everything must have a cause except for one entity that explains why things exist.
2. Christians use God as the entity to explain everything's existence.
3. God has virtually no proof, and is not present in this universe.
4. The universe has total proof, and exists all around us.
5. It is only logical that the most entitle entity be the one that is the special entity.
6. The universe being this infinite entity can perfectly explain everything without the need for a God.
7. God is not real.

I will post more attacks if necessary. Until then, au revoir
JackSpades64

Pro

I need to use some definitions

From Infoplease.com
Hypocrisy-a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
God- the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
Narcissism-inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.

God is not a hypocrite. He is omniscient and knows all the basis of my introduction. Humans have a limited knowledge. We will never know everything. We won't know if we are going to heaven or not. We don't know when the Earth will end, there will always be so histories lost forever. God knows all these things.

God is vastly more intelligent than humans can set rules for humans and these rules he doesn't need to follow. When you set rules for children that you do not need to follow, for example, a bedtime or not letting them play with things that are dangerous for them, are you being a hypocrite? No. You have more intelligence than the child, and you have to set rules for them to follow. The child will face repercussions for disobeying these laws. God gave us the 10 commandments:
1- You shall have no other gods before me.
2- You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the Earth.
3- You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5- Honor your father and your mother.
6- You shall not murder.
7- You shall not commit adultery.
8- You shall not steal.
9- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10- You shall not covet your neighbor's house
These are from http://www.allabouttruth.org...

Some of these commandments such as not murdering are to protect other humans. These commandments were placed at a time when humans were barbaric and we were far less intelligent than we are today (we thought the world was flat and the center of the universe. God doesn't send us to heaven because of morals, he sends us to Heaven for a) obeying him b) loving him. He is omnipresent and knows what he deserves, he created us, and he is "The Supreme Being." That shows that narcissism is logical in his view, he is supreme. He asked for one day of the week to set aside and then placed a few rules; he has been around since the "beginning of time."

The CON said that according to the Bible, "The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" yet God is known for killing. He IS a god of love, joy, peace, and kindness (as well as the other things listed), but he knows everything and knows when patience is not the right thing for the time. He is definitely faithful, for he wants everyone to pray to him. He is a god of joy and love, but you can be a god of joy and love and at the same time protect the ones you love. He kills to protect HIS people. A mother will still be joyous and loving if she protects her child, yet if she kills someone else, does she still not love?

Next I will disprove the Infinity Clause (see previous argument for reference). God is infinite. Nothing is equal to God. Space is infinite. Space is nothing. Nothing is equal to God. You see, space is not material, it is a term used to describe the absence of material, an idea. Numbers are used to describe amounts, they are infinite, and however they are nothing more than ideas used to count. Numbers are also nothing. As for time, it is unable to be judged with god. Time is highly debated in philosophy. Some philosophies believe time to be unreal; others believe it to be infinite. In Christianity, time is linear, it began with God creating the universe and it will end with the Second Coming. What time is would take too much time, and would take a whole debate, so I will not venture further into it.

*A Form of Occam's Razor*

1. Everything must have a cause except for one entity that explains why things exist.
2. Christians use God as the entity to explain everything's existence.
3. God has virtually no proof, and is not present in this universe.
4. The universe has total proof, and exists all around us.
5. It is only logical that the most entitle entity be the one that is the special entity.
6. The universe being this infinite entity can perfectly explain everything without the need for a God.
7. God is not real.

This is atheism, we can this is solely based on the false pretense that God is not real, however the Bible is solely based that God does exist. We cannot base an argument solely on either, we must use the brain that God gave us, and in fact it is flawed. We cannot explain everything in the universe; many atheists believe that we cannot explain how the universe started so why bother? In fact, the big bang theory believes that the universe started from nothing, and something cannot come from nothing. According to http://www.big-bang-theory.com...
According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang. Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space. According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy. This shows that they ARE NOT INFINITE. If time and space were since time and space are not infinite.
God is supernatural, the Big Bang Theory does not disprove God, and so it is possible that God created the Earth against scientific means.
Debate Round No. 2
Mr_Jack_Nixon

Con

I will now refute my opponent's attacks. The debate has been fun thus far and I hope it continues to be so.

'God is omniscient'

How did this refute anything? It does not take Godly knowledge to refute God, simply logic and reason.

'God is more intelligent'

So you state that a child needs a bedtime while an adult doesn't. While it is true we must enforce a bedtime on children, adults still need to follow a bedtime as well. It is not a matter of intelligence, but responsibility. If an adult never goes to bed, then he/she will surely die. The same goes with dangerous objects, an adult can hurt himself on one just as a child can, but the adult is hopefully responsible enough to be able to without getting hurt. Now there are some things that you simply cannot call responsible. For instance, a mass murder of every living being on the planet is not responsible. Even a 'mere human' can tell that is irresponsible, and there is no way intelligence can make such an act just. God, though, speaks of how one should not murder all of the time, but also wipes out almost every living things with a massive flood. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

'some of these were meant to protect humans'

So the 'do not kill' commandment was made to protect humans yet God goes and destroys humans and breaks his commandment? This is double hypocrisy, it seems. You say we humans were barbaric, but we were no different than we are today. Sure, science was nowhere near today's standard but we were still quite civilized. And when you say we were barbaric, do you mean to say ignorant barbarians wrote the Bible? That the supposed Jesus was a barbarian? If so, why would we even worship him? And you can say he is the 'Supreme Being' all day long, but why don't you go a step further and present some logic/evidence as to how/why this is the case. And also, you said narcissism is O.K.? So everyone, to be Godly, must be narcissistic? Doesn't God say to help others? How can we help others AND be narcissitic? Just another contradiction.

So if I have a child then that means I have the right to kill him? I brought him into this world, can't I take him out? I am more intelligent AND powerful... so does this give me the right? Of course not. He is a sentient being and despite the fact I have complete responsibility for his existence he still has basic rights that I can't break.

'time, space, and God'

Space is infinite. Whether material is there or not, the realm is very real. The fact that one has the potential to be at a point in space shows it's validity as a tangible, infinite realm. This would make it equal to god, hence god not real. About time, this would take a whole debate, but it is necessary in this debate. Time, however you want to look at it, is a very real measurement today. And a beginning or end cannot be imagined in time. While time may hold different ideals in different people minds, the concept of its idea is unwavering, and is also infinite. It is illogical to think else, and saying God is above logic does not prove anything, other than the fact that you are further separating God from any form of reality.

'Occam's Razor'

Where did I say I held the big bang theory as true. Regardless if it is, that is not the point of this argument. You claim that God is a being unaffected by cause and affect, and you use that to explain your universe. God is just an unnecessary medium in explaining the occurrence. It is much more logical to believe the universe has always been. About Hawking's theory, this was based on relativity, and in the 1970's. Now we have the quantum theory [http://en.wikipedia.org...] in which the beginning of the universe is unnecessary. Why is the Christian suddenly trying to use the science he so easily earlier denounced? It seems a Christian will use any means necessary to try to justify God in his own right. Even if this means being a hypocrite. So this argument still stands as my opponent has not shown WHY God should be that extra medium, even though God cannot be explained, while the universe can. Here is a more in depth analysis of this argument.

This seems to be the first thing Christians flock to when someone challenges them with proving God. This is their argument.

It is only logical that everything must have a cause. So how did the universe get here? Did it just expand from nothing? What created that nothing, or the energy needed to make the expansion? The only answer is God, an entity outside the realm of cause and effect that made the entire universe come into being.

This is the point when I would ask, "So why is God so special to be outside of this cause and effect you speak of?"

Well, God is the only being that can explain the existence of the universe, so he must be real, and this is why he is so special.

So the argument stands that the only entity capable of explaining our universe's existence is a God that stands outside of C&A. To make this clear, I will point out some attributes of God, from a very logical view that no one could doubt.

1) God can't be perceived with any of the five senses or any scientific instrument.
2) God's only ‘proof' is in the Bible.
3) According to all scientific observation, he has not affected our universe.

These are just a few attributes of ‘God'. Now let's look at some ones about the universe.
1) The universe is all around us, it can be perceived with all of the senses.
2) No sane person can deny it, as the universe is all around us.
3) The universe affects everything that happens by its laws and properties.

So now we can see that the universe seems to be much more ‘present' than God is. So let's now remember that God is the one ‘entity' unaffected by cause and effect. Why is it so unreasonable that the universe was this entity not affect by C&A? Why is God so special he deserves to be that special entity, when he has virtually no presence here? If we are going to have that special entity, it is much more likely to be the universe. Ever present, and it needs to have no cause. This means it needs to have no beginning, and can completely explained in itself. While I have not proven much, I use the same logic that the Christians do to explain a much more likely event.
JackSpades64

Pro

JackSpades64 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by JackSpades64 7 years ago
JackSpades64
No problem, Ugh, finals this week are going to KILL me.
Posted by Mr_Jack_Nixon 7 years ago
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Sorry. I felt I won, and I had to get rid of the random jdizzle spam vote. It's quite ok though.
Posted by JackSpades64 7 years ago
JackSpades64
I would like to apologize for missing my final argument round. I had to work a lot, attend school, write 2 papers and finish a book report in the last three days. Mr. Jack Nixon, you deserved better, and thank you for the debate. :)
Posted by InsertNameHere 7 years ago
InsertNameHere
lol. Yea, Islam is peaceful. We just get pissed when you attack us first, lol.
Posted by GeoLaureate8 7 years ago
GeoLaureate8
Oh, yeah! You can't decide which bomb to use! haha! j/k

Honestly Islam is peaceful, unless we're talking self-defense.
Posted by InsertNameHere 7 years ago
InsertNameHere
"For my main bible, I will use the King James Version, for I am most familiar with this one."

You know Christianity is flawed when they can't even decide which Bible to use. lulz. Ok, I'll stop being an a$shole...
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Yes, yours are of such high quality ...
Posted by frenchmoose 7 years ago
frenchmoose
This topic becomes uninteresting after being the 110th person to make it.. (oh yes i do know there are more.... oh so more)
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Vote Placed by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
Mr_Jack_NixonJackSpades64Tied
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Vote Placed by Mr_Jack_Nixon 7 years ago
Mr_Jack_Nixon
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jdizzle
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C.Artificavitch
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