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Is the Christian God real?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/8/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 911 times Debate No: 71350
Debate Rounds (4)
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To start of, please know I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic theist. I do not make the claim that no God exists, I actually think there very well may be a God that exists. However, not the Christian God. I have several points to make so I will try to keep this as organized as possible.

1. Christians lack of evidence plus disproval of the bible
When asked what evidence Christians have to prove Gods existence, they turn to the bible. A book full of stories, some good and some bad, but stories that haven't been proven but have actually been disproven. They have no scientific evidence to back up their claim.

We have disproven many parts of Genesis.
Creation of the earth and universe
Adam and Eve
Noah's Ark
Flooding of the Earth

Now for the record, I know Christian all talk he bible differently. Some take certain parts literally, others take it metaphorically. So if my opponent takes genesis metaphorically, this part is not for you.

Creation of the Earth
We know how planets are made. We know how stars are made.
The bible says:
"in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw the light and that it was good: and God divided the light from darkness."

The bible CLEARLY states that earth was created BEFORE the sun. The problem is, you don't have planets without a history of stars.

Adam and Eve
We have disproven this story through genetics, and evolution. Simple as that.

No where does God say that his creatures would evolve over time.

(Please do not get the theory of evolution, mixed with the fact of evolution.
Theory of evolution deals with the mechanisms such as natural selection.
The fact of evolution is that actual evolving. We have fossil evidence and evolution is observed everyday by evolutionary scientists. Evolution is a fact.)

We has have dated dinosaur bones being around millions of years before humans. We also have Pangea to back this up. Continental drift, Rock layers, etc. This all did not happen in a course of a few thousand years.

Noah's Ark
This is just common sense. An ark built by an unskilled man and his family, could not have held 2 of each animal of each species on an ark, plus feces, and plus food. The Ark would not have held and a man and his family would not have been able to control all of the animals.

Flooding of the Earth
Once again, common sense. We have the water cycle, and even if there was no water cycle and the earth was flooded, the water levels would only rise 25-50 ft. The entire earth would not have been flooded.

Now onto a different argument, there is no evidence. There is nothing that we can test or observe to prove his existence, and observation is what is needed in order to prove something exists.

2. Evil and hypocrisy in the bible
The bible is flawed, this makes it an unreliable source.
Again, we have disproven parts. The bible is also full of hypocrisy and at time, God seems more evil than loving.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 Timothy 2:12 " "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she is to keep quiet."

2 Kings 22:23-25 - "Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria."

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 - "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

The list goes on. I would like my opponent and those who look into this debate to take time to understand and/or realize that the bible is filled with rape, genocide, sexism, slavery, etc.

Christians will argue that the Old Testament is now longer followed. The New Testament is what matters now. But there is evil in that book as well!

Mathew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Mathew 2:22-2:23 "So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Mathew 15:4-7 Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21)

The bible is immoral and full of much hate and hypocrisy. But that stuff gets overlooked. Christians will take all the evil in the bible and anything that's disproven and say that those are metaphors. Anything that hasn't been disproven, and is good, they say is literal.

3. Morality
Christians will argue, if the bible isn't true then there is no objective morality. Nothing matters there is no good and evil, torturing baby's is okay.
No, that's not how it works.
I want everyone to understand this. There is no objective morality. We have subjective morality.
When I say something is wrong, I say it because I personally think its wrong. (Subjective)
When a Christian says something is wrong, they say it because God says its wrong. (Objective)

Objective morality: the idea that a certain system of ethics or set of moral judgments is not just true according to a person's subjective opinion, but factually true.

Nothing, is factually wrong. We all have different opinions.

War in Iraq/Afghanistan

These are all controversial topics. They are controversial because we all have different moral opinions.
If there was objective morality, we would all agree on what is right and wrong. We would all agree on what is good and what is evil. But there is no good and evil. There is no factual right or wrong. It is all a matter of opinion.

4. Where did God come from?
God has always been around. He exists outside of time. He's always been around.

Much is wrong with that statement. If someone exists, outside of existence, then they don't exist at all.
If a designer created everything, something or someone must've created the designer, otherwise there is no explanation at all.

Scientists will conclude that the energy, and matter has always been around. But Christians will argue, and say "no, God created that".
Why go one step further? Why do you agree that a deity has always been around, but it is impossible for the matter and energy to have always been around?

5. Some early refutations
Next I want to quickly refute 4 common Christian arguments.

1. Pascals Wager. You should believe in God because if you don't, to take the risk of going to Hell.
There are 3 flaws.
1. What if you believe in the wrong God?
2. Wouldn't God know who believes out of faith and who believes out of fear of Hell and are "believing" just to keep away, not because they love God?
3. Argument appeals to emotion

2. God of the Gaps. I don't know, therefor God.
This gets a debate nowhere. It also answers nothing. Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean God did it.

3. Russell's teapot. I don't have to prove God, you have to disprove him.
The one who makes the claim, as a Christian claims that God exists, has to provide the evidence to prove his/her claim. Otherwise there is no discussion.

4. Ontological argument. God is perfect and maximal, therefor he must exist.
Utopia is perfect, but doesn't exist.
You could also use this argument for a maximal and perfect car, or anything.
This argument does not prove anything.

Lastly, I want to refute one last thing Christians will say to try to prove God.

The universe and earth seems perfect for us to live in, that shows intelligent design and must be God.
If this seems like such a perfect place, please explain
World hunger
Over 90% of the earths water is dirty and undrinkable
Black holes
The sun will eventually die and go super nova and kill everyone
Mental illness
Mental disabilities
Earth is vulnerable to meteors and asteroids
Our food and air go down the same tube which is a choking hazard
Earth is mostly water, but we can't breath in it or live in it

Is this all your idea of intelligent design?

I know I have made a lot of points, 5 total, but point number 5 was just to avoid bad arguments that I often hear, so that point can be ignored unless my opponent chooses to defend any of those arguments.

I look forward to what my opponent will have to say and bring to the debate. I do not expect him/her to rebuttal all of my statements and give his/her own opening statements, so feel free to begin with just an opening statement, and we can start our rebuttals in round 2. :)

But with all the facts and evidence, I think it is safe to say that the Christian God does not exist.


I thank my opponent for raising such an important issue.

I respect non-believers. I respect non-believers more than the vast majority of religious believers, because they have the ability to use logic and evidence. They are also more ethical and genuine than religious people (in my view), as many of the least religious countries are the highest on the Human Development Index.

For example, in my country, Australia, we have the least religious youth in the world. We have also recently rated second highest on the HDI. This does not mean that non-religiosity causes human development to rise, however, as China is an officially atheist state (or at least, is led by a strongly atheist party), and yet it has a comparitively low HDI compared to countries with Judeo-Christian cultural influences.

My opponent has presented some good arguments. However, he/she may not have an informed understanding of Christianity as it originated. Assuming that he/she lives in the USA, he/she may have witnessed the stereotypical Texan, guitar-tooting, judgemental, white, fundamentalist Christian in action.

Let me explain the Christian narrative as it was told in the first-century.

The kingdom of heaven is currently breaking out into the world through God's anointed King, Jesus. He is the royal Son begotten of the Father, and no one can know the Father except if the Son reveals him.

As a result, peoples' sins are forgiven, they are healed and demons are cast out of them. The Son of Man, Jesus, is the second Adam, and he has all authority in heaven and on earth. He steps on creeping things, just as Adam could not.

Yet the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. He bought us back from our sins by dying on the Tree. As he hung suspended between heaven and earth, he absorbed all of God's wrath. He suffered hell as punishment for our sins, as the Father poured out the full measure of his anger against him.

He who knew no sin, became sin for us, so that the body of sin may be brought to nothing.

Then, on the third day, God raised Jesus from the dead. He came back alive, heart beating, and taught his brothers for two months. He then ascended into heaven, from which he will come to judge the living and the dead.

"Hold on", you might say, "but what do I get from this?" Everything.

You don't have to stack up any good deeds to get eternal life. Jesus won eternal life for you when he died on the cross and absorbed your sin. All of the flaming wrath that God should have poured out on humankind was instead inflicted on the only innocent person, the Lord Jesus.

Which means, that we are completely free. Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life. There are no strings attached. All authority in heaven and on earth is given to us. We become a child of God. It doesn't matter what we have done. We are given the power to preach the good news, to heal the sick, to raise the dead and to command the creation. All of our prayers are answered. All of my prayers are answered.

We are given a community of brothers and sisters to live with and to love in authentic relationship with God and each other, as his Spirit works through us to produce all kinds of righteous fruits.

All because I realised that it's not about what we do, it's about what Jesus has done. That's biblical Christianity.

But all of the religious hypocrites, all of the self-righteous, judgemental people, all of the people who act holier than thou, they will be judged most severely. You see, Jesus loved thieves and prostitutes and drunks. But he hated the religious hypocrites. Jesus loved to feast and to drink wine and beer with sinners. In fact, his opponents' biggest criticism was that he was a "glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners", by their standards.

In this story, you may have guessed who God is. It's Jesus. This is the Christianity you never knew, but you may discover it if you pick up your Bible and read through slowly. You may discover it if you see a Christian worker on the street, serving the poor and healing their disabilities.

But I'll tell you where you won't find Jesus working: in a church hall with stained glass windows, as rich white men try to keep up a religious appearance, judging others and pretending that they haven't cheated on their wife twice in the past week. A preacher stands up and begins to give you a nice, packaged speech. Nothing is genuine, and there is certainly no power or goodness, certainly no evidence that a god exists.

Now, is there any evidence that the thing's I've affirmed so far are true? Well, let me ask a few questions.

How do you explain the mindboggling links between the New Covenant and the Old? Is it possible for their to be an explanation in which they were fabricated (with some genius I might add) by humankind?

What do you think about the moral, "deep-cutting" observations and expositions in the Scriptures?

Does the Christian message, as I have described it, run contrary to human psychology, or is it in line with the way humans normally think?

Have you seen a believer perform any miraculous works? Do you have any sicknesses which I can heal in the name of Jesus?

Why do you think that people frequently confess religious or ethical beliefs, but deliberately go against their own religion or morals? Why don't most Christians, for example, genuinely believe the Bible? Why don't most of them read it, if it is supposedly "the word of God" to them?

What is your understanding of the Law and the Prophets?


I state that I think that the Christian god, as many worship him, is not necessarily real, but the God described in the Protestant Bible is certainly real, and we can know him intimately through King Jesus.

Since there's nothing that we could possibly do to deserve eternal life, this God gives it to us as a free gift. This gift-giving is made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus, who has established the kingdom of heaven on earth, which is currently breaking out through the preaching of this message, through mighty works of God and through genuine love.

If you would like to understand how the kingdom of heaven was foreshadowed before Jesus came, before there was light in the world, so to speak, then I cannot recommend more highly a book than Jesus: A Theography by bestselling author Frank Viola.

Again, I thank my opponent for opening this debate. I'm sorry if he/she was looking for arguments that cite scientific studies. I can do that if he/she likes, but I find it far more gripping to tell the story of the biblical faith, rather than to rant on about delayed-choice quantum eraser experiments and what-not.

I insist that whatever you get from this debate, remember that Jesus offers you forgiveness of your sins, physical healing and resurrection on the Last Day AT NO COST. There's nothing that you have to do, in terms of good deeds or religious activities. Regardless of what bigoted Christians who don't know their Bible tell you.

Debate Round No. 1


I thank my opponent to for accepting this debate. This is very well going I be a fun debate.

To start, I have been reading he bible, cover to cover.
American Atheist President David Silverman, one if my favorite people to watch debate, always asks everyone to pick up the bible, and read it cover to cover. Old Testament to New Testament. And learn.

Why would an atheist ask people to read the bible? Isn't he encouraging Christianity?
No. Many people come to the conclusion of atheism through reading the bible. I believe more atheists have read the bible than Christians.
Christians often go by what they hear in church. They don't read the bible cover to cover. They read the good parts of the bible and ignore the bad stuff.

I see that you focus mostly in the New Testament. Which I understand. Jesus changed everything with his crucifixion. However, Jesus himself is not as great as you lead him to be.

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

What kind of all loving person is that? A person who kills children, and sends people to burn in an everlasting lake of fire for eternity, just for not believing?
Doubting and believing only what is proven to the individual, is an involuntary action.
You can it force yourself to believe in something that is not proven to you. And because you have doubts and don't believe, you burn for eternity. For an involuntary action you burn for eternity.
How is that all loving?

Now to answer your questions.
How do we explain the covenants? We do believe Christianity is one of the greatest lies ever told. It has a large following and has survived for ages. However, atheism is rising. People are over time turning away from religion. Simply because of evidence, logic, reason, and facts.

What do I think about the observations in scriptures?
None of the scriptures have been proven true, therefore I don't think anything about them.

Have I seen a believer perform any miraculous works?
No. If you mean something like turning water into wine, walking on water, or making a blind man see again, I have not seen any of that.
Well Chris Angel walked on water, but they showed how he did it.

Do I have any sicknesses which you can heal in the name of Jesus?
I have poor eyesight. I have to wear glasses. Wanna fix that for me?
I also have depression. Can you heal that in the name of Jesus?
As far as I'm concerned the only thing that has helped these is science. Not religion or faith. Well science doesn't go into depression. That's psychiatric work. But a friend wrote a bible verse for me. "Anxiety is a mans greatest weakness (depression) but a good word cheers it up" I think was the verse. I don't remember it exactly, if you wish I will name the verse and all that next time I look at the paper.

Why do I think that people frequently confess religious or ethical beliefs, but deliberately go against their own religion or morals?
Doubt. Simple. People doubt their religion, they don't truly believe in it.

Why don't most Christians, for example, genuinely believe the Bible?
Because we are not given logical, scientific evidence to prove anything in the bible is true. As far as we are concerned, it is just a book of stories. Therefore they doubt and don't truly believe as much as they lead on.

Why don't most of them read it, if it is supposedly "the word of God" to them?
I don't really know. I can give a guess but I can't speak for all Christians.
My guess is for several reasons.
They don't want to read the entire book, since it's a big book.
They don't want to have doubt, those who try to force the belief in them.
They don't feel a need to since they hear about the bible in youth groups and in church.
They don't read the bible itself, but read books about the bible instead.

Reading books about the bible I would not recommend, because of course, the bad stuff is often ignored and they focus on the good, tricking everyone into thinking the bible is all loving and that God and Jesus are all loving and forgiving. I've looked as some of the books my family has read that are about the bible, and nowhere was there anything bad. But in the bible, there are lots of bad things in it that Jesus has done.

If I have misunderstood any of your questions, please say and I will correct myself and give you an answer to what the real question is.

If you wish to go into science we can talk science. You debate how you wish. Debate how you believe you can prove God is real. I am here to have fun and to learn. As I said I am not an atheist, I'm an agnostic theist. So I am very much open to learning. However Christianity does not have enough evidence plus their is too much hypocrisy, evil, and flaws/faults in the bible itself.

I again thank you for accepting this debate.
I look forward for your response. :)


Good thoughts. Now, I will summarise my opponent's last arguments into four points.

(1) The Bible is unjustifiable.

(2) Jesus is unloving since he condemns people to "hell", as you call it.

(3) I mostly focus on the New Testament, according to my opponent.

(4) Kyle, heal me of my depression.

I'll now address them.

(4) Is it something you're getting good treatment for? If it is, I don't think I can heal it. Or, is it something that is causing you a lot of unnecessary costs? You might call it debilitating? I think Jesus would heal that.

(3) I don't focus on the New Testament. Rather, I share the concise message of the New Testament when I'm summarising the Christian message to someone. I have spent most of this year in the Old Testament. However, there is no contradictory conflict between the Old and the New.

(2) You take into account that Jesus said that unrighteous people will be thrown into Gehenna (Greek word translated "hell". It refers to a place where the Jews burned trash in the first-century). Therefore, Jesus is supposedly unloving. Well yes, in that sense he is unloving. God is unloving to people who do wrong.

However, you need to take into account all the loving things God has done. He gave us being, and a world containing things to enjoy. He became a man and suffered excruciating punishment, both physical and spiritual, for our sins. That's pretty loving.

So, God is loving in some ways, and unloving in others. But when he is unloving, I think you could say it's out of love for something else e.g. justice.

(1) The Bible is justifiable for one reason in my opinion. It's justifiable because Jesus' life was foreshadowed thousands of times over before he was even born. Not just in prophecies, but in most images in the Old Testament. Check out the story of the Bronze Serpent, for example, in the Book of Numbers.

My opponent makes a lot of assumptions about me as his/her opponent because I am religious, and fall under the definition of Christian. However, some Christians don't doubt Jesus, and I'm one of them.

I thank God that he allowed me to understand all of those images in the OT pertaining to Jesus.

Hell is a lot more complicated in the Bible than preachers will say. There is a degree of doubt as to whether it is eternal for everyone. It is described as "death", "deep darkness", "fire" (darkness and fire don't mix), a dead army, and a whole bunch of other negative things.

We are told that hell is part of the coming wrath of God: a wrath which Jesus felt on the cross when he died to give us his free gift of forgiveness.

He offers this free gift of heaven and relationship with God, no matter what you have done. The kingdom of heaven has come near through him. If you look at the cross and believe in him (nothing to do with attending religious services, doing rituals or charitable deeds), then God has saved you and has given you a new spirit.

Debate Round No. 2


(1). So you're saying that the flood, killing millions, was justified?
Children being mauled by bears? Children!
Homosexuals being stoned, for loving life as they see fit?
I would never say that these things could be justified.

(2). You have admitted that in some cases Jesus is not loving. But isn't God supposed to be perfect? I would think a perfect God would be all loving to his creation. I don't think a God would design a creation, and then nearly destroy it and hurt it, having complete foreknowledge his creation would reject him and damn themselves into torment and suffering. This goes back to the first point of, "how is this justifiable".

(3). I have nothing to say here. You were just saying what you do with the bible.

(4). Aha I don't want this to turn into a therapy session thing haha. I have hard things happening. I turned to God in the past and he did nothing.
I did get treatment and that did not work at all. It only made me more depressed.

Yes, Jesus has done some good things. But are you saying that the good things justify the bad? That because he does good, we should ignore the bad?

What are your thoughts on people being damned to torment and suffering? Is it because God offers a chance that you say it's justified? Is it wrong for people to choose logic, facts, reason, and evidence, over faith? Are atheists going to Hell? Muslims? Buddhists? Are they going to be suffering for eternity just for thinking the wrong way?

Jesus has said that most people will go to Hell. Mathew 7:13-14

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8

Doubt, and only believing what is proven through logic, reason, facts, and evidence, is an involuntary action, that God is going to send is to hell for?
Sending someone to torture for eternity, for an involuntary action?
That is not love. There is no love in that. There is no mercy or forgiveness in that. That is true evil. In no way can that be justified.

If the Christian God is real, he is evil.

You also say he's good for giving us life and giving things to enjoy, yet still there's my point on how we have
World hunger
Over 90% of the earths water is dirty and undrinkable
Black holes
The sun will eventually die and go super nova and kill everyone
Mental illness
Mental disabilities
Earth is vulnerable to meteors and asteroids
Our food and air go down the same tube which is a choking hazard
Earth is mostly water, but we can't breath in it or live in it

Is this all your idea of good and things to enjoy?

My points still stand from my opening statement. However since we are not talking about morality, we can ignore that unless you do believe there is objective morality.
1. Christians lack evidence and there are parts of the bible disproven.
2. Evil and hypocrisy in the bible
3. Morality (which we can ignore unless you disagree)
4. Where did God come from?


Thanks for the feedback. You have correctly stated that the Lord is not perfect, that is, by our human understanding of perfection. To many of us, God is like a consuming fire which we want to keep away from. For some, they come close enough to enjoy a bit more of his warmth than their peers, but are not committed.

In fact, God deliberately "closes peoples' eyes" so that they cannot appreciate his beauty. This is according to both the Old and New Testaments (I'm getting a bit sick of talking about religious texts to be honest. Can I have something real and authentic in my life please?)

Jesus goes so far as to say that humanity as a whole calls good evil, and evil good. For example, an employer might call it good to dismiss his underperforming payee, instead of taking pity on him and giving him more workplace training.

The same applies to God. We call him "evil" because our definition of "evil" often just means "actions that people do that I don't like, because it causes damage to something." We have lost the sense that, if you create something, you may do what you wish with it. Actually no we haven't, we just apply it to God, because we're biased like that.


Hell is not torture. It is separation from the favourable presence of God. Since we think that God is evil, we derive our concept of goodness from other things. However, we don't realise that God is our source of being and delight. The punishment is "eternal destruction AWAY from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might." Hell is the "outer darkness". The darkness, away from God, that people believe is good, until they experience it.

So yes, God is not perfect, by our definition of perfection. But our definition is not his. I'm a changed person now. I've changed to think that his definition is the right one. And you will see the product of that belief in the way I treat others.

I want to heal your depression in the name of Jesus, but to be honest I'm not confident. I'm confident on the street, but I'm not confident over an Internet debate, especially when you're opposing our message instead of being neutral or interested. Well, I'm a child of God, so, be healed in the name of the King. Tell me in the comments about how things work out with your health. I'll be praying for you, if I remember.

How do you feel that salvation is a free gift to you from God? How do you feel about experiencing the risen Jesus through his followers (you won't find him in any great depth in a church service, I'll tell you that much)? Have you had a look at christophanies/images in the Law and the Prophets?

Debate Round No. 3


Okay, so God is not perfect. We got that clear.
But not by our understanding of perfect. Hm...
What would Gods idea of perfect be? Remember his creation was perfect until he destroyed it.
How did God destroy his creation?
Well Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
That was their choice wasn't it?
No. God knew that they would eat the fruit and defy him. God placed the tree of knowledge in Eden. God had foreknowledge that they'd eat the fruit and cause sin to enter the world and cause destruction, pain, suffering, and death. They did not truly have a choice.

If God wants his creation to believe in him, why would he close himself off to them? Why not give us evidence of his existence? It's like he wants us to not believe in him.

Your statements on evil just showed that we agree on morality I think. That there is no objective morality. So I have nothing to say here. If you do believe there is objective morality. Then we'll have to save that discussion for another debate since this is the last round.

You seem to be ignoring about how the bible says that Hell is torture with a lake of fire that we are damned too if we don't believe in him.
Then you seem to be using the bible to contradict the bible on Hell.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." Mathew 25:41

And Jesus said that most of his creation will be in this place of torment and suffering. Mathew 7:13-14

Is this love? Is this mercy? Is this forgiveness?
Do we even have a real choice when we are being sent to this place for an involuntary action? I don't see how we do.

I am opposing Christianity because I was once interested and I once believed in God and I would pray but never did I hear from him or did my prayers ever get answered. I then started hearing the scientific side of things, started seeing the hypocrisy in the bible, the flaws in the bible, and then came to the conclusion that the Christian God is not real. I go by what evidence is given to me, and I go by facts. Not faith over what a book says, especially since there are many others like it. I appreciate the prayers, but I am unsure of it working.
I want to make a reminder that I am not an atheist, I am an agnostic theist.

Now to answer your questions
How do I feel that salvation is a free gift to me from God?
Well since the only way I can achieve salvation, by what te bible says, is too believe in God, I don't have much to think on it accept one thing. Why not let everyone into heaven instead of only letting those who believe in? Why must I believe in order to get I to heaven? There are so many people out there that are so kind and selfless that wouldn't do any harmful acts however they do not believe in God and because of they are going to burn. I don't see justification in that.

How do I feel about experiencing the risen Jesus through his followers?
I don't really experience Jesus at all. I just hear people telling me his story from the bible, and sometimes even telling it wrong. I see his followers as brainwashed and I think they need to look at the facts and evidence and open their eyes to the facts, logic, reason, and evidence. Look at other religions and past religions and see that Christianity isn't much different from them. I also think they need to read the bible cover to cover and learn about the evil acts of God and the hypocrisy of him.
God is a "do as I say" kind of guy, not a "do as I do" of guy.

Have I had a look at christophanies/images in the Law and the Prophets?
A few looks. Doesn't really catch my attention.

To conclude this debate, I want to thank my opponent for accepting. This was a fun discussion and I did enjoy reading what my opponent had to say.
My points still still stand and have not been refuted.
(1) Christians lack evidence and parts disproven of the bible
My opponent did not bring up any evidence for God, but just used the bible to teach about him. He said nothing about the parts of the bible disproven, so I do not know if he just avoided the subject, or doesn't take those literal, thus I then agree with ignoring the disproval parts.
(2) Hypocrisy and evil in the bible.
He agreed with me when it came to hypocrisy, by admitting that God has done many unloving acts, this making him not all loving, which brings that God is a hypocrite by tell all of us to love but then doing horrible acts murdering children, committing genocide, allowing slavery, sexism, etc.
(3) Morality
My opponent seems to agree there is no objective morality. That is what the bible gives us however life does not truly have it and we seem to agree on that so there is not much to be said here.
(4) Where did God come from?
My opponent failed to answer this question.

With my points still standing, no facts, evidence, and reason being brought to the table on the Christian side of the debate, I think we can conclude that the Christian God is not real. Not saying there is no God, just saying there is no Christian God.

Thank you for viewing this debate, and thank you to my opponent for debating me.


Thanks again for another insightful response.

My opponent has brilliant arguments, but doesn't understand the Bible critically. I think that they are quite a reasonable person, and they do have good reasons, from their perspective, for rejecting Christianity. However, from what I have studied, I could never change my mind on Christianity even if I really wanted to.

It seems to me that my version of Christianity is justified by logic, even though science and quantitative evidence don't have much to say about it.

Let me explain how my opponent is logical, yet mistaken.

The quote from Revelation about the "lake of fire" is, of course, a genuine quote from the Christian scriptures. However, it is VERY unclear, from a literary point of view, as to whether hell is actually fire, or a metaphor for something worse. I think that the fire could be a m ...

I cut off my argument here because I wrote heaps, then the webpage spazzed out an went back to an autosave.

Good debate mate.

I'll conclude by saying that I have only one evidence for my version of Christianity being true.

Jesus, as a person, manifested through people and through the Scriptures. It's not just that he's amazing, it's that there are so many textual links and inexplicable spiritual ties, that I must conclude that it is true.

I would be fine with Christianity not being true. It would be disappointing, but I would accept that and just get on with enjoying my life in this awesome world. I'm a hedonist at heart.

However, having studied this in intense detail, I'm telling you: it's true. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind. I never have to pretend to believe: I do. Not because of wishful thinking, or childhood indoctrination, or because it benefits me in some ways, or because I have strong feelings, or anything like that.

Jesus is, in fact, God's anointed King.

Thanks heaps.
Debate Round No. 4
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kjohn104 1 year ago
@Blazzered I don't know if you're trying to find misconceptions in me. I already understood that evolution is a fact. However, it is also a theory that best explains the data. I am studying science at an Australian university. We are one of the least religious countries in the world. We understand these things.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
@kjohn104 That's another misconception. Evolution isn't a theory, it is a fact.
The theory of evolution deals with the mechanisms such as Natural Selection, but evolution is a fact. We know this from fossils and observation.
Posted by kjohn104 1 year ago
@Blazzered you're right, a lot of creationists could stand to read up on that information. I accept evolution as the best theory, since it explains so much of that data especially human behaviour and the fossil evidence that we have found
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
@kjohn104 the thing that creationists/theists often get the wrong idea of, is micro and macro evolution. They end up thinking that they are two different types of evolution, which really they're both the same evolution, but micro is evolution is a short time span, observing small changes and macro evolution is evolution in a long time span, large changes.
The Big Bang isn't related to evolution, they're two separate topics. Evolution is the origins of species, the Big Bang is the origins of the universe.
Posted by kjohn104 1 year ago
@Blazzered no they aren't different types of evolution, but in the minds of some people there are. They consider physical models such as the Big Bang to be part of some anti-God evolutionary narrative. Well, with the multiverse theory, maybe so. But yeah, you're right. Biological evolution is the only type of evolution that is recognised in the scientific community.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
@really12 you have posted the same comment on almost all of my debates aha. I can't keep re-replying to them. Then we'd just be repeating ourselves. I'll just simplify it down.
None of those religions are based off Christianity nor do they need Christianity to exist since they're all separate beliefs.

Evolution and the Big Bang are two separate topics.
Evolution is a fact, the Big Bang is a scientific theory.

@kjohn104 what do you mean by "depends what kind of evolution you're talking about"?
Are you saying there are different kinds of evolution?
Posted by kjohn104 1 year ago
@really12 it really depends what kind of evolution you're talking about. I think that evolution by natural selection is a perfect explanation for why animals behave the way they do. It also explains a lot of human behaviour.

Why, for example, do we want to marry someone who is attractive? Because attractiveness is a sign of health, reproducing with a healthy person produces healthy offspring who survive and reproduce, therefore the people that exist today have inherited the genes of people who wanted to marry attractive people.

Why not, if you want to prove the Jesus is alive, share the good news with the poor or perform miracles? There's no need to get into the evolution topic, friend. It can sometimes distract us from Jesus, who is our one great Source. "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Do you not believe that I am in my Father and my Father is in me?" (Jesus, to Philip)
Posted by really12 1 year ago
If the Christian God doesn't exist, then what does? If God doesn't exist then neither does Allah because Jesus is also one the Muslim prophets, also, Buddhism wouldn't exist either because they are open to other religious doctrines.

Are you insinuating that evolution is real? If so, what preceded the big bang?
Posted by kjohn104 1 year ago
You're right Blazzered. I've never thought about that much before. The Flood is a scientific scandal on all sides. It's dogwallopy of the highest degree. However, due to the textual links in the Scriptures relating to the Messiah, I would have to say that it did happen.

Not only that, but it is also presented in Genesis for a purpose, and not a historical one. Look at the images. The ark, Noah (the "only righteous man") the flood, the violence, God's anger, the dove, the plants regrowing, the Angel of the Lord shutting the door, etc. These images foreshadow the work of the Lord Jesus in saving us from God's wrath.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
We have evidence for the Big Bang, and again Bill Nye went into great detail on how it is impossible and illogical for Noah's flood to have happened. I can also give extra sources if you'd like that also go into great detail of Noah's flood not being true.
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