The Instigator
XDebatorX
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Neonix
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Is the Quran or The Bible the truth?

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Neonix
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/30/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,756 times Debate No: 20777
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

XDebatorX

Pro

This debate will centralize about which religious book is the truth. It can also extend to the religion too (but mostly about books). Voters should vote based on who made more solid arguments. No slandering, name calling, general disrespect etc.

First round acceptance
Neonix

Con

I will accept the debate with terms of clarification. The voter may not believe in God and hence consider neither book to be the truth. So for the purposes of this debate, I would ask the voter to assume that one of these two books IS true and you must judge from the evidence which book it is.
If Pro agrees to the revision, then we may proceed with the debate.
Debate Round No. 1
XDebatorX

Pro

Opening Arguments
Why The Quran is the Truth (some reasons)

Argument #1 The Quran is the best work of Arabic literature which supports the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh who was illiterate

The linguistics of the Quran has shocked and suprised the people of Arabia when it was revealed and was alone enough to bring many to accept Islam. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate until his 40s so it was inconceivable for him to have created it himself and the notion of him compiling it from outside sources without anyone's knowledge and in complete secrecy is a near if impossible task. Where did these words come from? As it says in the Quran, Allah.

This is a strong proof that the Quran is the word of Allah (God Almighty). Also all Arabic grammar and linguistics is derived from the Glorious Quran so it is impossible for it to have any kind of grammatical or structural errors beautiful isn't it?

Also, there was a challenge in the Quran to produce one Surah like it and no one has been able to do this.

Surah Al Baqarah Chapter 2 Verses 23-24
“And if ye are in doubt As to what We have revealed From time to time
to Our Servant, then produce a Soorah Like thereunto; And call your
witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, If your (doubts) are
true. But if ye cannot –And of a surety you cannot. hen fear the Fire
Whose fuel is Men and Stones – Which is prepared for those Who reject
Faith.”


Literature before the Quran and Its major Impacts, also references and further evidences:
http://website.lineone.net...
http://www.al-islam.org...


Argument # 2 Indisputable Scientific Evidences in the Quran

Most people today, however wouldn't accept the Quran based on its eloquence and linguistic exellence because this is not the age of literature and poetry but the age of science and technology. The Quran is not a book of science but a book of signs and more than a thousand deal with science (I will say a few). I will list and explain some which no one can refute, thus proving the divine origin of the Quran.

Groundwater in the Quran:


Surah Al Mulk Chapter 67 Verse 30

“ “See you?----If your stream be some morning lost (in the underground earth), who then can supply you with clearflowing water?” "


Surah Az-Zumar Chapter 39 Verse 21

“See you not Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding”


It wasn't known 1400 years ago about how groundwater came to form but the quran explains in the second verse how rain seeps underground through the soil. The first verse also speaks about where we obtain most of our drinking water which is from groundwater! This is highly evident today for the U.S, my first reference validates my example of the U.S

About groundwater:
http://www.groundwater.org...
http://www.ec.gc.ca...;


Chest Constriction/Pressure reductions due to high altitudes in the Quran:


Surah Al An am Chapter 6 Verse 125

:Those whom Allah wills to guide, he opens their breast to Islam; those whom He wills to leave straying; He make their breast closed and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus do Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe”

Everyone knows as one moves higher and higher into the atmosphere that pressure decreases and there are low oxygen levels, effectively making it harder to breathe/compressed,constricted chest. The Quran not only explains this in a scientific sense but also in a poetic and linguistic sense, amazing. I wonder who could have done this 1400 years ago?


Chest tightness due to high Altitudes (Altitude sickness) references:

http://health.nytimes.com...

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com...




Astronomy in the Quran:

Surah Luqman Chapter 31 Verse 29

“See you not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun and moon (to His Law), each running its own course for a term appointed; and that Allah is well acquainted with all that you do?”


Surah Az Zumar Chapter 39 Verse 5 (similiar in meaning but says created heavens and earth in true proportions)


Surah Al Anbiya Chapter 21 Verse 33

“It is he who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its own rounded course.


The Quran mentions the orbit of all celestial bodies in the third verse mentioned which is amazing to say the least. This is because it was previously thought that all planets revolved around the earth and then it was thought before that all planets in the solar system revolved around the sun. HOWEVER, it was recently discovered that the sun too in fact orbits around a point in the galaxy of the milky way. The Quran went against what everyone previously believed and is now the truth.

This is the case with many theories which have been revised over and over until they match what is in the Quran. Two examples of this are that of biology (every living thing in pairs which I will explain) and the water cycle.

References about the orbit of the sun (Im pretty sure you know the earth orbits):
http://www.universetoday.com...



Oceanology in the Quran:



Surah Rahman Chapter 55 Verse 19-21

He has let free the two bodies Of

flowing water, Meeting together: Between them is a Barrier Which they

do not transgress.”


Surah Furqan Chapter 55 Verse 53

He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.”


Surah An Nur Chapter 24 Verse 40

Or (the unbelievers state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean,overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above the other: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah gives not light, there is no light!”



In the first verse, the Quran beautifully explains the phenomena which is common in estuaries where fresh and salt water mix. It is commonly referred to as a pycnocline zone which is an area with 2 different densities.

The third verse (darkness in the depths of the ocean not known 1400 years ago) explains internal waves which is something modern science has only discovered recently. Waves are commonly though of as a natural phenomena (billow is another word for wave) but in the Quran it explains how it occurs in the depths of the ocean also.

Some References about these phenomena:

http://www.britannica.com...

http://web.mit.edu...



I will introduce further reasoning and evidences of why the Quran is the truth (outside of science and inside of science) but for now I wanted to open up with something the audience is very familiar with and can relate with and strongly trusts and depends on these days.


Neonix

Con

Refuting the argument:The revered prophet wrote the Islamic Holy text, although he was illiterate.”

The word Quran is literally translated as “recitation” (the spoken word). The words where not written down, but instead
passed down through generations by memorization. When the prophet began his journey, it was the Angel Gabriel that gave him revelation. The revered prophet was told to recite the words (not write them).

He asked his followers to learn the Quran as he had learned it. He showed them to memorize it in their hearts and recite it fully from
memory. After a dozen or more followers had learned to recite the revelation, they where asked to write it down. The written mediums included leather, tree bark and even stone. The act of writing the recited word is called “mushaf”.

Conclusion: The revered prophet did not write the Quran. He insisted his followers learn to recite the word from memory. It was written down by his companions after they had learned to recite it from memory.

Refuting the argument:” The Quran has scientific knowledge that proves it’s divinity”

The first example given, is a quote referring to an aquifer, or spring in the ground. My opponent assumes that 1400 years ago, people did not drill wells for water. That’s incredibly incorrect. Jesus Christ has one of his most famous dialogues at a well
with a Samaritan woman. They obviously knew about ground water before Jesus walked the earth.

Additionally, the book of Genesis shows us that God broke open the “fountains of the deep”, when he flooded the earth. Mankind has known of subterranean water table since the days of Noah, at least.

The second example given, is concerning a lack of oxygen from high altitudes. This is not a miracle unless nobody climbed any mountains until the Quran was written. Since Moses climbed a mountain to meet with God and Noah shipwrecked on a
mountain, I would safely assume that the Quran is not the first to understand that high altitudes cause hypoxia.

The third example given, “It is he who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon: all swim along, each in
its own rounded course
.” We can clearly see from this verse, that the Quran teaches that the Sun moves in a rounded course like the moon. It suggests the sun orbits in a path like the moon. That is a statement of observation from a terrestrial viewpoint, not a statement of science. That is literally a geocentric teaching and just plain wrong. We know this verse is not talking about the Sun orbiting around the center of the milky way galaxy, because the first part of this verse speaks about Day and Night. The author witnessed the motion of the sun and moon through the sky and assumed they where in orbit around the earth.

The fourth example given is about salt and fresh water separation. None of the verses explain a scientific mechanic for separation. They just make an observational statement, that they are indeed separate. A child could see that. It’s more of an amateur journal of observation than a God-breathed revelation.

Conclusion: No evidence for the truth of the Quran was manifested in my opponents argument. Each assumption was based on simple observation and/or it proves to be a scientific fallacy.

My Argument:

Logical proof:

The Bible claims it’s true.

The Quran claims the Bible is true.

The Bible claims no new revelation will occur.

The Quran claims to be new revelation.

So, by reasoning alone, if the Bible is lying about being true, then the Quran is also lying, since it claims the same. That would make
neither true. If the Bible is true, then the promise of no new revelation is also true, making the Quran false. Either way, the Quran is always logically false, and the Bible has at least a 50% possibility of being true.

Witnesses:

Cornelius

Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus and Phlegon,

Mara Bar-Serapion and of course Josephus (born 30 years after Christ died), who

wrote that Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the

Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose

from the dead!

The four Gospels”.

Did Jesus Die on the cross?

The Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered
the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

Josephus wrote: About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.

The Babylonian Talmud- On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged(hung from a cross). For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Did Christ restore the body in 3 days?

Matthew 28:1-8 -When the women came to the tomb, angels told them Jesus had been raised. (Mark 16:5-7; Luke 24:4-7)

A list of the appearances

* Mary Magdalene- John 20:11-18; Mark 16:9-11

* Other women -Matthew 28:9,10 - They saw, touched, and heard Him.

* Two disciples on the road to Emmaus - Luke 24:13-35; Mark 16:12,13 - They saw and heard Him for a prolonged period. Again, the others did not believe them.

* Peter – Luke 24:34 (1 Cor. 15:5)

* All the apostles - He appeared to them on several occasions: Luke 24:36-43 - note that
they saw, heard, and touched Him for prolonged periods; He ate in their presence. Again, they were skeptical and demanded proof. Mark 16:14-18;Matt.28:16,17; John 20:19-23; 21:1-25; Acts 1:3-8; 10:39,41; 1 Cor. 15:5,7

* Thomas with the apostles - John 20:24-29 - He was skeptical till He saw, heard, and touched

Jesus, including the wounds.

* Saul of Tarsus

- Acts 9:1-9; 22:4-15; 26:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:8,9 - He was an enemy and persecutor.

At noon on an open highway, a light brighter than the noon sun appeared.
-Jesus


spoke and identified Himself to be Jesus. Saul saw and heard Jesus to qualify him to be a witness of what he had seen and heard (i.e., an apostle -22:14,15; 26:16). He was struck blind till Ananias came and restored his sight (9:8,9,18; 22:11-13).

* 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 - A summary list that adds James and an appearance to over 500 at one time, most of whom were still alive when Paul wrote.

* Jesus then ascended to heaven in the presence of the apostles - Acts 1:9-11; Luke 24:50-53; Mark 16:19,20.

Then the apostles preached repeatedly that they were eyewitnesses of these events - Acts1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 4:33; 10:39-41; 13:30-32; 22:14,15; 26:16; 1 Cor.15:3-8,15.

All were persecuted and most gave their lives for this testimony, but none ever withdrew it, denied it, or retracted it.

Conclusion:

It is possible the Bible is true.

It is absolute that Jesus existed.

It is possible that he was the Messiah, based on the
eyewitness accounts, secular writings and the possibly accurate Gospels.

While nobody can prove the existence of God or the
authenticity of his word with certainty, we can disprove false claims by simple
reasoning. Either both scriptures are lies, or just the Quran. The Quran cannot
be true, if it claims that God revealed his will to the Christians (people of
the book) through a holy Jesus, since that very Jesus warned against new
prophecy being false. The Quran cannot be true.

To add merit, the science found in the Quran is either false
or rudimentary. It’s not indicative of deity.

Debate Round No. 2
XDebatorX

Pro

Defense of Argument #1


My opponent said:Refuting the argument: The revered prophet wrote the Islamic Holy text, although he was illiterate.”


Most of the information you stated in your rebuttal is valid (much more than a dozen companions memorized the Quran). However, you claim that I said that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) wrote the Quran. In my argument, I said:The linguistics of the Quran has shocked and surprised the people of Arabia when it was revealed and was alone enough to bring many to accept Islam. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate until his 40s so it was inconceivable for him to have created it himself”. I never claimed anywhere in my argument that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) wrote the Quran. What I was saying was the linguistics (meaning of or relating to language) of the Quran which used complex poetic devices such as similes and metaphors was something that would be impossible for an illiterate man (illiterate is also synonymous with uneducated) to do. Also, how could someone write if they are illiterate?


My opponent said (I agree with 100%): “Conclusion: The revered prophet did not write the Quran. He insisted his followers learn to recite the word from memory. It was written down by his companions after they had learned to recite it from memory.


With this statement, we both agree that the Quran was written after they had fully learned to recite it from memory, from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Thus, the Quran (recitation/linguistics) that the Prophet memorized from Angel Gabriel (or you would say some other source) is the Quran (book/literature) that was written (and we have today).


In the title of my first argument, I said “The Quran is the best work of Arabic literature which supports the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) who was illiterate”. This is no different than saying “The Quran is the best work of Arabic recitation/linguistics which supports the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh who was illiterate” because the literature of the Quran is the EXACT SAME as what was recited by the prophet (pbuh). In this case literature=recitation (the literature of the Quran is no different than the recitation). I hope we are clear on this.

Defense of Argument #2

My opponent said : “The first example given, is a quote referring to an aquifer, or spring in the ground. My opponent assumes that 1400 years ago, people did not drill wells for water. That’s incredibly incorrect.


I never assumed that people didn't know about groundwater and how to obtain it, of course they did! What I was arguing was that people didn't know the formation of groundwater 1400 years ago. The Quran states that groundwater is formed by the seepage of rainwater into the soil/earth. This is a scientific fact known today. I specifically said: “It wasn't known 1400 years ago about how groundwater came to form...”. Let me restate the verse which tells how groundwater is formed:

Surah Az-Zumar Chapter 39 Verse 21

See you not Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding”

Another verse of the Glorious Quran which talks about seepage of rainwater into the soil

Surah Al Muminun Chapter 23 Verse 18

And we send down water from the sky according to (due) measure, and We cause it to soak in the soil; and we are certainly able to drain it off (with ease).”

Many different theories that Greek philosophers such as Aristotle and Plato had on the formation of groundwater which were wrong were believed for centuries. The Quran was right all along.

My opponent said: “The second example given, is concerning a lack of oxygen from high altitudes. This is not a miracle unless nobody climbed any mountains until the Quran was written. Since Moses climbed a mountain to meet with God and Noah shipwrecked on a mountain, I would safely assume that the Quran is not the first to understand that high altitudes cause hypoxia.

I agree with my opponent that this scientific fact stated in the Quran isn't a miracle since people would have known about this when they scaled mountains. But this is notable because it is at least one of the first (if not the first) written works (after the Quran was written) to mention hypoxia due to high altitudes.

My opponent said: “The third example given, “It is he who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon: all swim along, each in its own rounded course.” We can clearly see from this verse, that the Quran teaches that the Sun moves in a rounded course like the moon. It suggests the sun orbits in a path like the moon. That is a statement of observation from a terrestrial viewpoint, not a statement of science. That is literally a geocentric teaching and just plain wrong.

Nowhere does the verse my opponent stated say that the sun orbits in a path like the moon, it actually says that they swim along in their own rounded course. From where did my opponent draw the conclusion that their orbits are the same? The verse doesn't say that!

My opponent is also missing a key part of the english verse which explains what all means. The verse I used is from Abdullah Yusuf Ali English Translation of the HOLY QURAN which says:

Surah Al Anbiya Chapter 21 Verse 33

It is he who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its own rounded course.

The verse says all celestial bodies (which includes the earth) move in orbit which is true and was verified scientifically recently. I then went on to explain that even the sun is in orbit which was previously thought to be fixed. This isn't a geocentric teaching/verse because no where in the verse does it say the earth is the center of the universe or that it is fixed and you will never find a verse which says so.

My opponent said: “The fourth example given is about salt and fresh water separation. None of the verses explain a scientific mechanic for separation. They just make an observational statement, that they are indeed separate. A child could see that. It’s more of an amateur journal of observation than a God-breathed revelation.

This isn't something that can be merely observed. If I showed you two bodies of water, you wouldn't be able to simply “observe” which one is salty and which is fresh. To know that they are separate, one would first have to conduct tests at various places where salt and fresh water mix (take water from fresh area near salty area and some from salty area near fresh area). 1400 years ago, people didn't just randomly do this so it wasn't known.

My opponent doesn't give a reply about the verse which talks about internal waves in the depths of the ocean. I will restate this beautiful verse which is both poetic and scientific:


Surah An Nur Chapter 24 Verse 40

Or (the unbelievers state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above the other: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah gives not light, there is no light!”

Billow is another word for wave. Waves are normally known as a phenomena which occurs on the top of the ocean. However it has been discovered by science (first observed by Fridtjof Nansen in the late 17th early 18th century) that there are internal waves in the ocean. My opponent cannot dispute this because the verse is so clear cut about this scientific fact. The scientific facts in the Quran are valid and all of them (except hypoxia due to high altitudes) would not have been known 1400 years ago, proving the miracle and the divine origin of the Glorious Quran.



(not enough room for rebuttal and argument, will introduce later on)


Neonix

Con

Pro said:”Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was illiterate until his 40s so it was inconceivable for him to have
created it himself and the notion of him compiling it from outside sources without anyone's knowledge and in complete secrecy is a near if impossible task.”

Answer: No it was not a near impossible task. Memorizing verses that you created yourself is not difficult at all. Musicians do it all the time. If we asked Eric Clapton to recite any one of his many, many songs, he could do it with pin-point accuracy. You may say: “But Eric Clapton is literate.”

Okay, what about the Beatles, Elton John, Lionel Richie or….(drum roll)….Stevie Wonder? None of them
could read or write sheet music. How did they recite the music? They simply had a talent for the craft. It’s not only possible that he created the Quran, it’s probable.

Not to mention, he didn’t have to memorize it all. He only had to teach it once to his followers, who kept record of it and could regurgitate it on command. It’s a faulty argument.

Pro said: “What I was arguing was that people didn't know the formation of groundwater 1400 years
ago.

Answer: You expect anyone to believe, that the people of the ancient world could build pyramids that aligned with celestial bodies, using advanced algebra, but they were unable to rationalize that rain water soaked
into the dirt? Also, that’s not how aquifers work. They are rivers. They get fed from a source just like any other river. It would take some pretty heavy rainfall in the Arabian Peninsula to feed the aquifers. I propose they are fed from a river or lake. Also, the reason aquifers dried up was because Humans routed the water for irrigation purposes. (See the world wonder, Hanging Garden or Roman aqueducts.)

Pro said:But this is notable because it is at least one of the first (if not the first) written works (after
the Quran was written) to mention hypoxia due to high altitudes.”

Answer: That makes it invalid. If it’s not the first, then it’s not a revelation of new information.
I’m willing to bet, people in Tibet knew about Hypoxia before anyone near Babylon figured it out.

Note: I already argued the point about celestial bodies moving. I find Pro is grasping at straws.

Pro argued that nobody could observe fresh water becoming salt water.

Answer: That’s incorrect unless you want to ignore the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers. Both are salt water
rivers that are fed from fresh water plateaus. The saltiness is attributed to back wash from the Persian gulf. That they happen to be in the Muslim heartlands is not important. (Friendly Sarcasm).

http://www.worldatlas.com...

Pro argued about the Quran predicting internal turbulence of waves under the surface of the water:” like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped
by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above the other: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah gives not light, there is no light!”

Answer: First of, this verse is speaking about a storm. That’s what happens when dark clouds and high winds form over water. It creates many, many waves. One after another….topped by dark clouds. This is an observational
statement. The narrator saw a storm on the sea.

Read the last part of that verse. “If a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it.” That’s talking about weather so bad, that you can’t see you hand in front of your face. This happens during vicious rain storms.
Have you ever been on the interstate during high rain fall? You can’t see the car in front of you.

This verse is about poor visibility during a storm. It’s not about subsurface turbulence. That’s a huge stretch. I wouldn't’t even suggest this without turning red from lying.



More evidence about the Bible:

Description

Quote

The Pilate
Inscription

In 1961 an
Italian archaeologist, discovered an inscription at Casesrea Maritima. The
inscription in Latin contained 4 lines translated as follows:

“Tiberium

Pontius
Pilate

Prefect of
Judea”

The stone was
probably used in a foundation of a Tiberium (temple for the worship of
Tiberius)

The
inscription clarifies the title of Pontius Pilate as “prefect” at least
during a time in his rulership. Tacitus and Josephus later referred to him as
“procurator”. The NT calls him “governor”, a term incorporating both titles.

This
inscription is the only archaeological evidence of both Pilate’s name and
this title.

The James
Ossuary
Researchers
may have uncovered the first archaeological evidence that refers to Jesus as
an actual person and identifies James, the first leader of the Christian
church, as his brother. The 2,000-year-old ossuary—a box that held
bones—bears the inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of
Jesus." Until now, all references to the three men have been found only
in manuscripts. Andre Lemaire, a paleographer at the Sorbonne University in
Paris dates the box, which was empty, to 63 A.D.." Scientists at the
Geological Institute of Israel examined the box, which is made of Jerusalem
limestone, and judged it to be about 2,000 years old. The inscription is
written in Aramaic, in a form that further narrows the possible time frame.
"The script is very important for the date because the Aramaic script
changed over time in ways we could measure," said P. Kyle McCarter, a
paleographer at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. "It's
the most important criterion for dating this object, and the script is
consistent with a date in the middle of the first century A.D.

This gives us
one more piece of evidence outside of the Bible that these are real people,
and that they're important people, and provides a small confirmation for the
claims made about James as the brother of Jesus" What is highly unusual
is the mention of a brother." So far, with all the inscriptions we have,
only one other has mentioned a brother," said Lemaire. "This is a
very important point for the problem of identification. There would need to
be a special reason to mention the brother. It suggests the brother was also
prominent, an important person." Jesus and Joseph were fairly common
names of that era; James, slightly less so. Statistical analysis suggests
that the possibility of these three names occurring in the given
relationships (son of Joseph, brother of Jesus) is very small.

Caiaphas
Ossuary

From the
Caiaphas family tomb in Jerusalem, this ossuary bears the inscription
"Yehosef bar Qafa: (Joseph, son of Caiaphas), and it is dated to the
Second Temple Period. Caiaphas is the name of the High Priest who presided
over the trial of Jesus (Matthew 26:3,57)

The Ossuaries system ceased after 70 AD. The box
contained the bones of 4 children and an adult women and the bones of a man
aged about 60. The ornate decorations mean that he was a significant person.
Archaeologists feel this may be the High priest during the time of Christ.

Josephus
refers to him as “Joseph who was called Caiaphas of the high priest”


I have so much more. Ran out of room. For a full source, see: http://www.truthnet.org...
Debate Round No. 3
XDebatorX

Pro

Defense of argument #1 and #2

If he was to teach it to his followers, of course he would have to memorize the entire Quran.

Only parts of the Quran were recorded because as long as the Prophet was alive, he could have received revelation so no one officially recorded it officially until after he died. Think about it, how could one record the entire Quran, 114 chapters on things like tree bark, stones and animal skins?


Why it isn't plausible Muhammad (pbuh) created the Quran:

1. Muhammad would have had to think up the entire Quran and memorize the entire Quran all from his brain without writing anything down, not even once. How is it humanly possible to think up 114 chapters and then memorize it all?! The answer is it isn't.There had to be a supernatural force or outside sources and I already disapproved the latter which you agreed with.

2. The Quran uses poetic devices and language which requires an extremely high intelligence (actually, divine intelligence but not saying for sake of argument). Muhammad was not educated enough to make use of these poetic devices. The Prophet (pbuh) had near perfect (desirable) characteristics.

3. Therefore, with reason and psychology we see that it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Quran to have been created by one illiterate man.

My opponent then tries to refute my argument about groundwater. He says that groundwater is fed from a river and that they are from rivers. Aristotle also thought that groundwater was primarily formed by rivers,lakes etc. However it is an indisputable scientific fact that groundwater is primarily formed due the seepage of rainwater and precipitaion into the soil.
http://www.groundwater.org...;
http://www.experts123.com...
search on google: [PPT] My favorite questions about ground water. Or How to prepare a ...

Surah An Nur Chapter 24 Verse 40 (opponent says storm on the sea)

Can this this verse mean on top of the sea?

Absolutely not. The Quran states very clearly in the deep seas. This means internal. The Quran does not say:

"on the vast seas..."

"on the seas that have vast waves"

The above are all false interpretations which my opponent is trying make. I want to remind both me and my opponent that it is just as wrong to reinterpret scripture to make it 'fit' science, then it is to reinterpret scripture to make it not fit science. This type of dishonesty works both ways. I am unbiasedly saying this verse is talking about internal waves. I ask the audience to simply read the verse and make their own judgement.



Rebuttal # 1 (round 2 "logical argument of Bible")

My opponent said: “Logical proof:The Bible claims it’s true. The Quran claims the Bible is true. The Bible claims no new revelation will occur. The Quran claims to be new revelation.

So, by reasoning alone, if the Bible is lying about being true, then the Quran is also lying, since it claims the same. That would make neither true...and the Bible has at least a 50% possibility of being true.

What surprises me is that my opponent said the Quran says the bible is true. Nowhere in the Glorious Quran does it say “the bible is true”. In fact, the Quran doesn't even have the word bible in it. The bible is a compilation of all the christian writings from various authors. What you are probably referring to is the verse in the Quran which refer to belief in the original books revealed to Jesus Christ (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh).


Surah Al Imran Chapter 3 Verses 2-3

Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self Subsisting, the Supporter of all.

It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)."


Muslims believe in all these books that are mentioned in the Glorious Quran and those are the books revealed from God to Jesus and Moses (and David too) pbuh all of them (the verse says that Allah sent down the Gospel upon Jesus). The Gospels that Christians have today aren't the ones mentioned in the Quran. The four Gospels were written by man and were not revealed by Allah (God) to Jesus and most if not all Christians know this. The Bible was not and is not the literal word of Allah (God). The four gospels of the Christians are named after authors who do not have last names and were written years after the ascension of Jesus into paradise. The most controversial Gospel is the Gospel of John, written around sixty years after the Messiah's ascension into paradise...


The Gospel of John has controversy over the identity of the author, the place and date the gospel was composed has uncertainties. These are crucial facts about the gospel which is supposed to be a foundational document for Christians worldwide. How can it have these sorts of doubts?

http://www.britannica.com......


After the claim my opponent made about the Quran and the bible is clarified, the rest of his “logical argument” falls apart. My opponent then goes on to talk about Jesus dying on the cross and the restoration of his body in three days which doesn't support his case on why the bible is the truth. My opponent also says that the Bible is at least 50% true and that “It is possible the Bible is true”. This seems that he doesn't fully believe that the bible is even the truth! He also questions the existence of God which is something foundational to the entire Christian faith! I firmly state and testify that there is no God to be worshipped other than Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger and that the Quran is 100% the truth. I hope that my defenses and my next argument shows this.



Argument # 3 Preservation of the Quran

The Glorious Quran says:


Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 Verse 9

We have, without doubt, sent down the message; and We will assuredly guard it from (from corruption)”


Allah (azawajal) gave a promise that the Quran would be protected from distortion and corruption. This promise from Allah (azawajal) was to all of mankind. We can see when we analyze history and the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), that the Quran as it was recited by the Prophet (pbuh) is the book that we have today.


Many of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) memorized the entire Quran and it was fully recited by Muhammad (pbuh) from beginning to end every year during Ramadan. More than 10,000 men and women either memorized the entire Quran or parts of it while the Prophet (pbuh) was still alive. Many people wrote it on different mediums (skins, bark etc) but it wasn't officially recorded from beginning to end as one mushaf in the original Quraish dialect that it was revealed in until after the Prophet (pbuh) died because it was still possible that he could receive revelation.


After a short time after the Prophet died, Uthman (R.A) got a companion of the Prophet (pbuh) named Zaid Ibn Thabit to write the recitation of the most honest and trustworthy of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh). For every single verse of the Quran, a mimimum of two people had to recite exact same and fully agree on the position of the verse. There are three ancient manuscripts of the original Quran, in its original form (in the Quraish dialect) existing today just as the Prophet used to recite.



There is only one book which has been able to stay in one version and that is the Glorious Quran. This is proof the Quran is the truth because Allah's promise has been fulfilled and will be until the end of time.

Supporting sources:

http://islamnewsroom.com......

http://www.muslimherald.com......
http://www.quran.org.uk......

http://images.chron.com......
http://muslimmedianetwork.com......
http://2.bp.blogspot.com......


Surah An Nahl Chapter 16 Verse 69 (Honey has healing properties. Proven scientifically)



Therefore, The complexity of the literature of the Quran that proves the prophet couldn't have created or got it from outside sources, the scientific miracles and the promise of the preservation of the Quran are all strong reasons to believe it is the truth. I strongly urge a vote for Pro based on more proof proving the Quran than the Bible.


Neonix

Con

Pro said:If he was to teach it to his followers, of course he would have to memorize the entire Quran.


Answer:

You claimed that the prophet received revelation throughout his life. Therefore he didn't have to recall the entire Quran all at once. He only had to recall the most current revelations. This also adds credit to my argument that the Quran was inspired by man. The fact that the "revelations" came in chunks small enough to remember and recite makes it most likely a product of limited human intelligence.

It should be noted that round 5 is generally not the place to make new arguments, however, my opponent did, so I will also partake also. It was his debate challenge, his rules.

God spoke with Moses face to face. Don't you claim the revered prophet is the greatest prophet of all? Why did Moses receive the favor of direct divine visits (having even seen the physical form of God) and the revered prophet of Islam had visions and Angelic encounters like the minor prophets and apostles? It would appear God chose his favored prophet in the old testament and sent his only son in the new testament.

From the Torah, the book of Numbers 12:1 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord.


Pro argued again, that rainwater creates aquifers.

Answer:

Again I remind him that even if a small portion of the aquifer is created by seepage, that is not how they form and maintain. Rainfall is not constant enough to maintain a water table. The fact that the Quran pointed this out, only hints at the fact that the author made a "regional" observation for desert climates. (The Persian Gulf). The Global model looks much different.
Look at this government site for the Florida aquifer system. It is replenished almost entirely by surface lakes and streams. The survey does not even mention rain. (Strange, since Florida is not particularly dry.) In fact this article points to Lake Okeechobee as a source. Did you know it's salt water? The aquifer is fresh water. Funny how no magical "barrier" separates them (as the Quran claims).

http://pubs.usgs.gov...



Pro argued "We have, without doubt, sent down the message; and We will assuredly guard it from (from corruption)"

Answer: I would ask pro to research this. I found evidence within 2 minutes, that shows otherwise. Here seven or eight different versions of the Quran.

Nafi`

(from Medina; d. 169/785)

Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)

Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)

Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)

Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)

al-Qisa'i (from Kufah; d. 189/804)

Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)

(Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 324, bold added)

http://answering-islam.org...

 

Perhaps this can account for the many denominations of Islam. (Muslims always criticize Christians for being broken apart by denominational differences).

Sunni, Shia, Sufism, Ahmadiyya, Ibadi, Kharijite,Quranists, Yazdanism, Nation of Islam Obviously the Faith is not as pure as it claims.

Conclusion:

I have provided archaeological evidence, which verifies the Bible as an accurate historical document. I have given counter-evidence which destroys or places high doubts on the legitimacy of the Quran.

My opponent has not furnished a single measure of fact to support his holy book. The Quran cannot be verified by science, because it is not a scientific manuscript. It can not be verified by historians, because it is not a historical document. It can not pass the test of God-breathed revelation, because it is not an inspired prophecy. The Quran has failed in every aspect of it's duties.

The Bible has a reasonable foundation in history. It's events, locations and people have been verified by many secular outlets.

The Bible has a reasonable foundation in theology. It's scripture is rooted in God's orthodoxy.

The Bible stands unchallenged by any merit of the Quran. Vote Con.

Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
As per Con, who is a Christian: "...the Bible has at least a 50% possibility of being true." I find it beyond comments!

Brief analysis of arguments:
1. Best work of Arabic Literature: Con merely pointed out that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) did not physically write it. That does not negate the fact that it is best work of Arabic Literature - 'dictated' by a person who was illiterate and had not read or heard any book being earlier.
2. Science in Quran: All arguments presented by Pro were dismissed as they could have been 'observed'
by anyone. Con has forgotten that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was living in deserts of Arabia about fourteen and a half century ago! Pro. Euphrates and Tigris in Saudia Arabia!
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
No problem... I enjoyed this debate. I learned a lot. I'm always up for more topics in the future. Congrats on the previous debate win, by the way.
Posted by XDebatorX 5 years ago
XDebatorX
oh alright sorry man I'll stop but I was looking at that site and it only has negative about Islam, no positive....
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
Come on man....don't let the debate spill into the comments. You had enough room to defend your faith. Also, you would claim any site that speaks against the legitimacy of the Quran as an "attack site". It's a baseless argument.
Posted by XDebatorX 5 years ago
XDebatorX
answering-islam.org is just an attack site against islam and makes blatant lies. The Quran is one. There are many different sects in islam but the quran is what unites everyone.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org...
Posted by RandomName 5 years ago
RandomName
Easy answer, NEITHER!
Posted by XDebatorX 5 years ago
XDebatorX
I thank Neonix for participating in this interesting debate.
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
There be trolls here.....
Posted by owen99999 5 years ago
owen99999
Neither of them are true haha! If you look at the evidence you can come to the logical stand point that god doesn't exist it's sad so many people believe it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Volkov 5 years ago
Volkov
XDebatorXNeonixTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Neither book is "truth," but I can't vote in a way that reflects that, sadly enough. But I felt CON was able to refute PRO very easily on a lot of points, plus he had quite a few excellent sources - so did PRO, but I felt CON's sources were less biased.
Vote Placed by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
XDebatorXNeonixTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did not provide any significant arguments in favor of The Holy Bible, while Pro presented several arguments in favor of The Holy Quran. 5:1 to Pro. Detailed analysis is comments.