The Instigator
pwardpa
Con (against)
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The Contender
IllinoisanLibertarian
Pro (for)
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Is the confedrate flag on goverment property ok?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/21/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 420 times Debate No: 76789
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

pwardpa

Con

Is it ok to have the confederate flag fly on government property? Would it be ok to have the Nazi flag fly on these properties? It wouldn't! And the fact that its allowed by the majority of the white america says they have racism in their hearts towards black people. The confederate flag origins take place upon cessation from the US of America, because they refuse to abolish slavery. When I see a confederate flag it reminds me of how my ancestors where imprisoned, tortured, raped and killed. The continuation of flying this flag is to continue inflicting as much psychological and emotional damage to black Americans, almost 150 years after end of slavery. How is this not hatred and racism by most of white America that either supports it or is silent about it? To be silent is the same as agreeing or going along with it. Everyone knows this!
IllinoisanLibertarian

Pro

Good luck to you, hope for a good debate!
" Would it be ok to have the nazi flag on (government) property?"
When you say this, you attempt to compare the old southern slave-owining United States to Nazi Germany, notourious for it's racial cleansing programs that systemiatically murdered millions of jewish peoples and minorities. While both treated people as property, there is a large difference between the two, those being...
1. Slave Owners were profit- incentivized and cared for their slaves enough that they didn't want to hurt them or murder them, where they would just be wasting money on their cruelty. Nazi Germany exterminated people systematically and as quick as possible. In the time period of the civil war, compared to the time Nazi Germany began their holocaust, a relatively miniscule amount of slaves died compared to Nazi Germany. You're comparing apples to oranges. Completely different things.
2. Not to imply that slavery should've been pardoned because others were doing it, but many other countries around the world were using slavery just as the south was. The holocaust was a phenomenon that has only been seen once, in that one place. Also, since hundreds countries have had slavery, and not changed their flags, why is it required that the same goes with the confederacy? The United States once endorsed slavery, but their flag still flies high on government property.
3. Nazi Germany holds no cultural value to the United States. It symbolizes death and destruction. The Confederacy, however, does. It is seen by most southeners as a symbol of that represents their southern pride and heritage.
So, therefore we have seen the difference between The Confederacy and Nazi Germany, and how they are entirely different, through culture, treatment of minorities, and history.
I get a little bit cofused here by your wording. You said " Would it be ok to have the Nazi flag fly on these properties? It wouldn't! And the fact that its allowed by the majority of the white america says they have racism in their hearts towards black people" So, you're saying that the majority of white America approves of letting the Nazi Flag fly on government property? This sounds a little fishy, so can I have a source that says this? Also, can you give me some examples of the Nazi Flag being flown on government property? I doubt this too.
"The confederate flag origins take place upon cessation from the US of America, because they refuse to abolish slavery"
Again, history and I disagree with you on this.
Neither country, Union or Confederacy wanted abolition in the south. The abolitionist movement was never a popular once, even in the north. The reason slavery became such as a hot topic was due to it affected the free market. If slavery had existed in the newer territories, white wage workers would never be able to compete with them in the market. The Northeners wanted territories where WHITE people could go to earn an honest living, but with slavery in those territories, no jobs would be available to them. This is why the the north DID want abolition, but not in the south. The South saw that an abolition of slavery in the territories would be a stepping stone to abolition in the south. The South saw the " wage slavery" as the dubbed it in the north, as worse than slavery. When the worker was unable to work, or when the grew old, the master would generally care for them In the North, the worker was simply fired, left to their own devices.
Anyway, both sides of the civil war were generally in agreement of white supremacy. The civil war didn't start over pressure from the north to abolish slavery in the south, but rather new territories. The vast majority of slaves were not killed either. The plantation owner is running a business, not a slaughterhouse, and it would make no sense to purchase a fairly expensive slave just to kill them. They would want their slaves in the best health that they could be in, so that they would work with their best ability.
With your distorted view of history, I can see how this would " inflict psycological and emotional damage" to you, but I am going to say that most black americans understand history, and it doesn't remind them of such things.

The short version of everything that I just said is here

  • The Confederacy was very different from nazi germany
  • The Confederate flag holds culture and heritage for many Americans
  • Asked for a sources when Con made bold claims without any
  • Described how Abolition in the south was NEVER a genuine reason for the Civil War.
  • Only corrected that one part, didn't describe any more of the economic, social, or political reasons of the civil war.

Works Cited

"The Confederate Flag: An American Cultural Object." The Confederate Flag: An American Cultural Object. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 June 2015

Merriam-Webster. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.

"Slavery." Slavery. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.

"13th Amendment Site." 13th Amendment Site. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.




Debate Round No. 1
pwardpa

Con

Hello,

I appreciate your response to this debate. I will try to not be defensive or insulting, but I must say you have your facts completely wrong. You came across very angry and defensive to my comments. Here are the facts.
The number of slaves killed is between 10-30 million https://colonialdiseasedigitaltextbook.wikispaces.com.... This includes deaths from the African slaves and their subsequent offspring over several centuries.

1. From the time of being picked up in Africa to their life in this country. The exact number is difficult only because of the large number killed during the ship transportation. A large number of who were kept in filthy conditions died from diseases contracted during the long voyage (https://colonialdiseasedigitaltextbook.wikispaces.com....... ). Some have it at about 50%. Maybe that doesn't seem like that bad and maybe you don"t hold the slave owners requesting the capture and transport of these individuals as bearing any responsibility, but I do. These slave owners directly conspired in a plan that result in the deaths of millions.

2.There are a number of Jewish people living in this country and a number of racist groups who revere Hitler; and would love to have the Nazi symbols on public property like flags, license plates and on government property, in general. This is not allowed at all. My question was why? Not that I believe it would be ok. No! On the contrary it would be disgusting and offensive. But their trauma is over for the most part, but our continues (see Charleston massacre, for one example of thousands).

Your contention that because we were at war in another country these individuals wouldn't be allowed to use their symbols here even-though they attacked our country during the war. While the confederation army, which declared war on the USA should be allowed to hold their symbols on government property. Property, that at the end of the day is owned by all the citizens in that state. You stated that the confederate flag represents the pride of the southerner. How do you have pride in the imprisonment, torture, rape and murder of women, men and children. That is truly sad and disgusting. If that is what you are proud of then I know what kind of person you are.

In your comments, you say that the slave owners loved their property so they wouldn't kill them. Really? You don"t know what happened to a slave if he ran off. He was lynched! You don"t believe these men and women were raped by the slave owners and also utilized for profit in sex trafficking operations. Really? You don"t know that they didn't receive adequate care of food during the civil war and large numbers died due lack of food and water (Coelho, & McGuire, 2000). Do you actually know anything about what you are speaking about? Or is that you don"t want to know?

The fact that not only were women raped and forced to have sex with the slave owners and overseers, but men were also raped. Why do you think a lot of slave males ran off in spite of the threat of death upon capture?

You aren't aware that they regular sold children from their parents or that these children were molested by these men. Something else to be proud of- your heritage based on the exploitation of a group of men, women and kids. Wonderful! Someone who is proud of that is definitely a racist. I guess if I only had this for my heritage I would be angry and defensive too.

But here"s an idea - The 1861 Confiscation Act (Syrett, 1971). This law was passed that allows the USA to confiscate all the property and assets of slave owners. This was never carried out and the assets accrued by these slave owners using slaves has since passed on to the owners ancestors. Maybe, because people like you hold so much pride in their southerner heritage of murder and molestation with no indication of remorse or wrongdoing, we as a country need to revisit this issue. Maybe the real problem is that because these southerners got away with murder and rape and torture, is why they are still proud of it. Let"s put forth a movement to seize these assets. Maybe when we do this as a country, the ancestors of these slave owners will develop some humility about slavery that they obvious don"t have now.
Finally, in your own response your only southern heritage relates to slavery. Its ok though, I don"t need you to acknowledge the despicable treatment of a group of people that never did anything to you. You don"t have the compassion for that. I can only hope that at some point in your life someone you love is treated the same way that those people were treated and then maybe you"ll care.

Anyone with common sense and a little history knowledge should have an idea of the heinous activities of slave owners. I always think it"s interesting when someone tells me that racism is over, but when pressed they admit they wouldn't want to be a black person living in this country; because of how black people are treated by people swearing they"re not racists.

If I have offended you by my comments, I sincerely apologize. I was actually using great restraint but there is only so much one can take.

References

Coelho, P. R., & McGuire, R. A. (2000). Diets versus diseases: the anthropometrics of slave children. The journal of

economic history, 60(01), 232-246.

Colonialdiseasedigitaltextbook http://colonialdiseasedigitaltextbook.wikispaces.com...

Syrett, J. (1971). The Confiscation Acts: efforts at reconstruction during the Civil War. University of Wisconsin.
IllinoisanLibertarian

Pro


1. Atlantic Slave Trade

This was a terrible practice yes, obviously(I only saw estimates of 8-15 million slaves killed around the world and other sources very, but we get the point, millions of people died. This number also goes for all slaves, and does NOT apply to the confederacy only, as many other south American and the MAJORITY of these slaves went to Brazil)

. The slave owner's are partially responsible for creating a demand for slaves, which companies to ship slaves across the Atlantic. However, they cannot be blamed for the way the slaves were shipped, just as I could not accuse you of a being a sweatshop if you were to wear a Nike shirt. The Slave owner's didn't conspire, unless they were directly involved in the method of shipping and acquiring the people. Again, if you buy meat from a company that abuses their animals and keeps them under inhumane conditions, I could not hold you legally accountable for this, unless you were directly involved in that. You are just another customer, just as the slave owners were.

2. Nazi Germany Flag

I too, despise Nazism and Fascism, in case you were attempting to frame me of that. I am having some trouble understanding your wording, you said " But their trauma is over for the most part" I am not really sure what you meant by this whole paragraph. Could you also, quote my ' contention" that I had? I am confused here too, sorry if that is just me not thinking straight.

3. More Accusations

Another example of you inferring my heritage, ( which should not matter AT ALL) in this debate, despite my which states my ( ILLINOISANLibertarian). You do so in this quote

" You stated that the confederate flag represents the pride of the southerner. How do you have pride in the imprisonment, torture, rape and murder of women, men and children. That is truly sad and disgusting. If that is what you are proud of then I know what kind of person you are."

I have and underlined the words that suggest my accuse.

4. What is southern culture or heritage? It"s not just Slavery!
I will begin with a quote that you have previously stated, in which you address as the only pride a has.

" You stated that the confederate flag represents the pride of the southerner. How do you have pride in the imprisonment, torture, rape and murder of women, men and children. That is truly sad and disgusting"

The fact of the matter is, slavery only applies to a fraction of the southern population. ( Fully 3/4 of Southern whites did not even own slaves; of those who did, 88% owned twenty or fewer. (PBS)"

Now, I know that I'm a terrible human and use made up facts ( despite sources and citations) ;) ( this is sarcasm) but 1/4 of the population and 12% of those who you use examples of ( plantation owners), does not make up an entire culture, or claim the name for the much larger, majority of the people, as you have said to me. Since you do not understand what I mean when I say " southern" I will explain.

Culture- the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, or place (Merriam)

Here are some examples of southern culture-
  • language- such as the different accents used within the south
  • Dance- square dancing, clogging, etc.
  • Literature - As I lay dying, Essays of four Decades, etc.
I think you get my point. Culture is not hijacked by a minority of society who commit evil. The things said above are a few examples of southern culture, which is sometimes represented by the Confederate Flag.

5. Another thing that I never said ( which you claim that I did)

Your quote.
" In your comments, you say that the slave owners loved their property so they wouldn't kill them."

Really? Really? Really?
Show me where I said that slave owners " loved" their property (slaves), and I will forfeit this debate right now. I'll be darned though, it might be hard to find considering you made that up...

I will go through and check again, but this is the 3rd time you've attempted to paint me as someone I'm not.

6. The Truth of Slavery

Yes, I completely understand that slaves were harshly punished for attempting to flee or used to create excess profit by using them in the sex trade. Yes, and I fun fact: I never once denied these things!!!

Slaves were often lynched or punished harshly for running away, to punish them for their actions. They were done so extremely however, as a fear tactic to discourage other slaves from following suite, continuing to back my theory that slave owners were economically, not who bought slaves just to kill or torture them. But you don't have to believe me, for I have found "Lynching" as described by PBS.

Lynching, an act of terror meant to spread fear among blacks (PBS) http://www.pbs.org...


As for sex slaves, yes they were often treated worse than field slaves, who needed to be healthy to work. I am sorry for not referencing which kinds of slaves I was talking about earlier, but it was the stereotypical field slave. My apologies.

But the fact still remains that slaves were not purchased solely for killing or torture. Those do not render profit. Labor does.


The fact that not only were women raped and forced to have sex with the slave owners and overseers, but men were also raped. Why do you think a lot of slave males ran off in spite of the threat of death upon capture?" - You, earlier

To the question, I think of male slaves ran away not because of the threat of being raped, but I dunno, maybe the hard life of forced labor ahead of them?


7. Again, I am not a and this is not southern culture

I will again start with a quote from you.

"You aren't aware that they regular sold children from their parents or that these children were molested by these men. Something else to be proud of- your heritage based on the exploitation of a group of men, women and kids. Wonderful! Someone who is proud of that is definitely a racist. I guess if I only had this for my heritage I would be angry and defensive too."

Wow, another attack on your of me! Real mature! This is also the 4th time you assumed I am from the south. Please, try to make some sense some time.

8. 1861 Act

But here"s an idea - The 1861 Confiscation Act (Syrett, 1971). This was never carried out and the assets accrued by these slave owners using slaves has since passed on to the owners ancestors

I agree with this law, and I would like to see the assets. However doing so in this modern era would prove very difficult. However, most ancestors of slave owners do not even know if they're ancestors owned slaves or if they gained from that,

9. Overview

1.
the triangle trade and how slave owners were not responsible for deaths aboard ships. ( and your lies)
2. Nazi's?
3. Addressed how many you made up a person who I am not and attempted to attack me with it!!!!! 7 TIMES OVERALL NOT TO MENTION THAT MY HERITAGE SHOULDN'T AFFECT THIS ARGUMENT, YOU MADE UP WHO I WAS AND WHAT I SAID 7 TIMES!!!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS? JUDGES LOOK HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Defined southern culture and how a small minority of southerners owned slaves
5. Your lies
6. Truth of slavery
7. Your lies again
8. Confiscation Act

Works Cited

BBC News. BBC, 15 Mar. 2007. Web. 22 June 2015.

"Know Southern History :: Culture." Know Southern History :: Culture. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.

Merriam-Webster. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.

PBS. PBS, n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.

"The Triangular Trade - Boundless Open Textbook." Boundless. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 June 2015.
Debate Round No. 2
pwardpa

Con

Well, this this won't take long. At the end of the day, you are wrong! YOU SUPPORT A SYSTEM THAT IS BASED OPN THE DEHUMANIZATION OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE. Black people that you believe desire to be treated like garbage. Now here's the thing I don't believe in YOU!. I know if you had any compassion for anyone you would know that the confederacy is tied to slavery. see , the NAZI could also make the claim of heritage, they could talk about all the years prior to the final solution for the Jewish people. But at the end of the day , one is known for the greatest thing they do!!!. For the Nazi's it is the final solution, for the southerner's its slavery. These slave owners and overseers are MURDERS, MOLESTERS, and RAPIST. Each and everyone of them that you are defending. Confederacy stands for separation from their country which is an act of war and they are all traitors to their country no different then the muslim radicals
IllinoisanLibertarian

Pro

I respect your ability to maintain such control over your emotions. I feel that you are a fantastic debater, as you have prove to me by making such powerful, persuasive arguments such as " you are wrong!" I congratulate you for being so open-minded, and reading my arguments entirely, and responding to them accordingly. Thank you for being so mature in your actions, with such brilliant moves such as insulting me, making up the ethnicity of which you think I belong to, and then insulting that ethnicity and then using it against me. Not to mention, making false accusations and yelling about them. Clearly, you are a splendid person.

No. I'm not really sure how to go on with this debate, as you seem entirely close-minded and refuse to even view my responses.
I guess I will just address this response how I normally would, despite this leaving the debate and more or less is just me clearing my name from these false accusations.

1. I " support" Slavery ( Seriously???)

Your quote " YOU SUPPORT A SYSTEM THAT IS BASED OPN THE DEHUMANIZATION OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE."

I can only assume that you are referring to slavery by this. Well, sorry to you, but I don't support it. I know that you didn't read my, or you would have seen what I said about it. Most of them go along the lines of these " This was a terrible practice yes, obviously" or " I too, despise Nazism and Fascism, in case you were attempting to frame me of that." ( when you brought up Nazi's again) maybe I should have outright said that I despised slavery, in case you attempted me to frame me of that, which you did.

Anyway. I do NOT support slavery, and I CHALLENGE Con to back up his accusation with fact or sources.

2. More Lies :)

"Black people that you believe desire to be treated like garbage." -Con

This feels a little repetitive, but you know, when you make up lies, I have to challenge you on them.

I do NOT that black people to be treated like garbage and I CHALLENGE Con to back up his accusation with fact or other sources.

3. Confederacy

Yes, I never denied that the Confederacy was linked to slavery, but I my argument has been that there is MUCH MORE to southern culture than what 1/4 of the population in the south participated in over 150 years ago.

Also, to quote you " I know if you had any compassion for anyone"

Sorry, but I am not a, and since I do not feel free to share my medical records with you, you must take my word for it.
I again, CHALLENGE you to prove that I have no compassion for anyone. The burden of proof is on the one who claims.

4. Nazi Germany; Again

Sorry to inform you, but persecution began long before the final solution came to be. In fact, the Nazi's passed over 400 anti-semetic laws and regulations between 1933 and 1939; all before final solution came to be. I also detest your claim that " But at the end of the day , one is known for the greatest thing they do!!!." I feel that the greatest thing that somebody does, is subjective.

an example for you. Let's say, hypothetically, that my father is Jordan Belfort. He is known by the rest of the world for starting Stratton Oakmont and making millions of dollars; albeit illegally. Some people say that that is his greatest deed. As his child, I say that his greatest deed was raising. What you view as " greatest thing" will often vary from different viewpoints.

5. Accusation

Again, another time to view your wonderful conduct.

"Each and everyone of them that you are defending." - you, talking about slave owners and overseers

Yes, I did defend the fact that " slave owners were not responsible for deaths aboard ships." ( talking about the triangle trade)

I also repudiated this in depth in my previous argument, which you either chose to ignore or didn't feel like debating and decided yelling would be more effective.

6. Confederacy, again

yes, the confederacy obviously succeeded. You clearly didn't read my previous debate. Not going to respond even more to your intolerance and bigotry.

7. " Muslim radicals"

Really not sure why you said this. Please describe to me what you meant by this, by caring Muslim Radicals to Successionists.

OVERVIEW

1. Defended myself from Con's lies. Requested con to support his fantasy claims.

2. Defended myself from Con's Lies. Requested Con to support his claims.

3. Briefly referenced my previous argument, which con did not respond to. Also requested con to prove that I am a pyscopath, as he has claimed. Also defended myself from Con's Lies.

4. Talked about how Jewish persecution began before the final solution, and how views and opinions on people or organizations are subjective.

5. Defended myself from Con's lies.

6. Referenced my earlier argument on southern culture and the Confederacy.

7. Asked Con about his comparison.

Con is bigoted, racist, and a liar. He doesn't respond to my arguments, and makes up lies against me in his new ones. I am not sure how I can continue this "debate" as it has ceased to be one, and more of Con making up lies about me and me having to defend myself. HELP.

Sources:
http://www.ushmm.org...
Debate Round No. 3
pwardpa

Con

pwardpa forfeited this round.
IllinoisanLibertarian

Pro

IllinoisanLibertarian forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
pwardpa

Con

pwardpa forfeited this round.
IllinoisanLibertarian

Pro

IllinoisanLibertarian forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by IllinoisanLibertarian 1 year ago
IllinoisanLibertarian
At the top of mine it read " To begin, I would like to inform that I am not in fact, a southerner as you seem to believe ("Maybe, because people like you hold so much pride in their southerner heritage of murder and molestation with no indication of remorse or wrongdoing") , despite my name ( ILLINOISANLibertarian) suggesting that I hail from the south, I actually am from Illinois; born and raised. Now that we have cleared up my heritage, which is you feel is so important to this argument that you attempt to assume mine and use it in your argument, I may begin. "

I erased it to keep in line with the word limit. Thanks for making up who I am and calling me a sociopath etc. etc.

Last time I checked, someone's ethnicity didn't affect their argument, but I guess for you it does. NO SOUTHERNERS DEBATE PWARDPA OR HE WILL USE WHERE YOU CAME FROM AGAINST YOU, BECAUSE MAKING FUN OF AN ETHNICITY IS HOW YOU WIN TO HIM! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
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