Is the god of the old testament a good god?
Thank you for posting this debate. I hope I can make this a difficult debate for you. Maybe even change your mind. (:
Good luck and Have fun.
some definitions for good.
1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health.
3. of high quality; excellent.
4. right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
5. well-behaved: a good child. EXPAND
I don't think I will be using the definition for good just yet but I'd like to have it ready for when the time comes.
I believe we are assuming the validity of the Christian bible in this debate. And also that it is the supreme word of God.
1 God Loves you. He is jealous for you. The bible describes him as a lover. The way a man courts a woman, in the same way God attempts to court you. He is always attempting to reach out to you. Mankind is always running away from him because of Sin. An internal conflict within man is always going on. The Flesh is known as the side that runs from God. The Spirit is the side that Loves God back, that urns for Him, craves Him, and needs him. God hates the Flesh, the sinful nature. Because of His extreme amount of passionate love for you, it hurts Him very deeply when we Sin.
The bible is clear about Sin being Death. Sin is a poison that kills the Spirit and advances the flesh. Sin can only bring Death and can never bring life. When people poison themselves with Sin it breaks God’s heart. It brings Him pain to a degree that we as humans could never understand because we could never love the God loves. God’s love is perfect in every way. No selfish desire can corrupt it or taint it. It is because of this love that God sometimes acts in a way that may seem mean or harsh.
We have human minds. Our minds can never come close to the capacity or intellect of Gods. He is all knowing. He created the Universe with mere words. He is all powerful and is everywhere. God’s the freaking boss. He is the father and we are the children and that is the way we must look at things. God knows best. If any human were in his position who knows how far the universe would have gotten. How could any human know how to and create atoms or cells. Everything that God does is the perfect way it should be done.
2 If a child gets put in timeout or spanked by a father, the child at the time thinks his father is being cruel and irrational. But the father knows that the child needs to learn discipline and must learn to follow rules. Also, if the child only eats cookies all the time the child will become fat and possibly develop heart diseases at a young age and possibly die much sooner than normal. The father prevents all this true evil with punishment that seems evil to the child at the time. Later on in life the child may look back and understand that what the father did was because of love for the child and the child will most likely love the father more for it.
Now the time span God is in is eternal. The time that humans will be on this earth is but a blink to God. While we are on this earth we may never be able to understand that everything God did was because he loved us all passionately and equally. But, for those that trust in Him even when we think we know better, there will come a time when you are in Heaven and look back and know that everything he did was out of love for you.
Is God good? Yes. But in your mind it probably depends on if your in timeout at the moment. Or if the flesh is advancing and God is crying.
"God Loves you."
Let's look at how the Bible describes love. Let's go to the "love chapter." 1 Corinthians 13: 4-8a says
4" Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails."
God is not patient in the old testament. In fact, if you even complain, he will destroy you with fire. Numbers 11:1-4
"And the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortunes, and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some outlying parts of the camp."
"He is jealous for you." You may be referring to the second of the ten commandments here, which you did not cite (I will) that states in Exodus 20:1–5,
20 And aGod spoke all these words, saying,
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before1 me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 eYou shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am fa jealous God, gvisiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,"
It says he is jealous of you worshipping other gods. That is extremely nonsensical because according to the bible, there is no other god but Yahweh. So. God being jealous of other gods or inanimate objects that people may worship would be like Adam being jealous of Eve before Cain and Abel were born.
"The bible describes him as a lover."
Pay close attention to that fifth verse in there. "for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," That does not sound like a lover to me. God is basically saying that he will punish the descendants of people who "hate him." People would have a reason to hate a god that sends fire down from heaven to burn people just because they complained. And then for hating him he punishes them and their descendents. Once again, does not sound like a lover to me.
"The way a man courts a woman, in the same way God attempts to court you."
Men don't demand women recognize them and threaten violence if they don't bow down and worship him (unless you are Uday Hussein of Iraq who actually used to do that.)
"He is always attempting to reach out to you. Mankind is always running away from him because of Sin."
If mankind is running away from him, it most certainly not is due to sin. It is because god is a horrible monster of a person who threatens violence if you don't worship him.
"Everything that God does is the perfect way it should be done." Ever hear of the recurrent (inferior) laryngeal nerve of the giraffe? It runs from the brain down into the chest, loops around one of the main arteries in the chest, and back up to the larynx. God designed this nerve to take an extraordinarily long and superfluous route from the brain, down into the chest, and then back up into the larynx. A better way to have made it would have been to make it run just from the brain to the larynx instead of the long, superfluous journey into the chest and then back up again.
Now that I have countered your arguments, here is a simple list of 11 commandments that if god had followed, would have given him better and more moral options in his interactions with his creation.
1) Thou shalt not knowingly put a source of temptation along with a pitchman for the source of temptation in proximity to people who you don't want to disobey you so they can disobey you and call this ‘free will' (Genesis 2-3). That is like intentionally leaving a bag of weed out in your living room and inviting Willy Nelson and Snoop Dogg over if you have teenagers you want to keep off drugs.
2) Thou shalt not punish the descendants of two people for being curious (Genesis 3). They are the ones who did something wrong according to you. There is no reason to make all of mankind whom were not responsible for that decision suffer because of what two people did.
3) Thou shalt not flood the Earth and drown all living things, save one man, his family, and a few animals (Genesis 6-8). If people were wicked and you want to get rid of them, make all of mankind sterile so that everyone except the one upright man and his family dies natural deaths on the same timeline that you would have flooded the Earth and drowned everyone. The people would not suffer and this keeps the innocent animals from experiencing the pain of drowning as well.
4) Thou shalt not turn a woman into a pillar of salt for being curious (Genesis 19). All Lot's wife did was turn around to see the city she was leaving being engulfed in flames. That is nothing to kill a person over.
5) Thou shalt not ‘test a man's faith' by asking him to sacrifice his son (Genesis 22). This is cruel and unusual. Imagine how terrified his son must have been when Abraham grabbed Isaac, tied him up, and raised the dagger ready to act.
6) Thou shalt not kill all the firstborn sons in a nation when the leader of that nation doesn't do what you wanted him to do (Exodus). It was Pharaoh that made the decision not to let the Israelites go. Punish him solely instead.
7) Thou shalt not cause a woman to miscarry if she was unfaithful to her husband (Numbers 11). This was the first abortion provided by way of miracle by god.
8) Thou shalt not command a village to stone a man to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15). He was just working. He was harming no one.
9) Thou shalt not kill a king's firstborn son because the king committed adultery and killed a man (2 Samuel). Punish King David instead and not his innocent child.
10) Thou shalt not send two she-bears to maul forty-two young boys for making fun of a bald prophet (2 Kings 2). Lighten up. They're just kids and what they were doing was innocent and did not hurt Elisha.
11) Thou shalt not allow someone you have control over to kill all of a man's children to win a vain bet (Job).
I look forward to your response. :)
Callen13 forfeited this round.
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
The Bible also says that god creates evil.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
So, to recap. One that creates evil is evil. God creates evil. Therefore, god is evil.
Callen13 forfeited this round.