Is the modern understanding of Hell true or not?
Debate Rounds (4)
Second round is for opening statements.
Third round is for refutals and additional arguments.
Fourth round is for refutals and closing statements (no new arguments this round).
This entire debate was started due to the comments by Longline. I will re-post his comment. You can find the comment here : http://www.debate.org...
"I would actual love that. To have a debate on it. Because thier really is no hell, hell from the Bible is actually taken from a Hebrew word meaning, Gehena, which was a place outside of Jerusalem people use to burn dead bodies.
And it was a nasty site that Jesus use when talking about the end time, this hell was not a spiritual places as many people think, it was a real place that can actually go to even today. The mistranslation was due to the teaching of the trinity, in order to SUPORT the whole trinity people had to reedit the Bible. As you even know the word Trinity is nowhere in the Bible."
I am now challenging him to this debate. I hope he accepts promptly.
So I ask my opponent to please open up discussion of the trinity as well.
The whole burden of proof in this debate relies on my opponent to prove that the Bible's original interpretation of Hell is not the same as the current interpretation.
However, since I am busy, I will let my opponent start off with his evidence and opening statements, and I will respond with refutals.
However, thanks Longline for your patience and this debate.
Many of these people express the word "Hell" with our alphabet but leave it untranslated.
what are these words specifically you may ask?
The original word for hell is taking from Hebrew, which is "she'ohl
And the Greek equivalent is "Hai'des"
These two words you are looking at does not mean a spiritual place it is the grave, the tomb that the dead body goes in.
Please pay attention, today it is taught that Hell is a place inhabited by demons and where bad people go after they die and they are punished, or tormented.
And the Greek also have this word "Ge'en'na" this word by itself mean is a symbol of eternal destruction.
Now we are looking at three words two mean the same and one meaning "eternal destruction"
From Hebrew we have "she'ohl" or Hell
From Greek we have "Hai'des" or Hell
From Greek we also have "Ge'ne'na" or eternal destruction
Keep that in mind. As we reason on this other version of hell, where people are punished and tormented.
Read very carefully Ecclesiastic 9:5,10
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.
Ok now we are going to actually think about what that say, not reedit it, think about it, people don't think about what they read in the Bible so let me do it for you.
Verse 5 say, the living not that they will die right? And the dead know nothing at all, they don't have rewards.
Tell me before you where born, do you remember anything at all? No you do not.
Verse 10 say their is no WORK or PLANING, or KNOWLEDGE, or WISDOM, in the Grave.
THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU WERE BEFORE YOU WHERE BORN.
in other words IF YOU DIE YOU WILL RETURN BACK TO THE SAME STATE YOU WHERE BEFORE YOU WHERE BORN.
NOW IF THEIR WAS A HELL, DONT YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE TO EXPERIENCE THE PAIN? But this is saying you will not have any knowledge. AND TELL ME IF BAD PEOPLE DO GO TO THIS HELL, DONT THEY NEED THEIR MIND IN HELL TO KNOW THEIR PUNISHMENT? Once again it say after you die you will know nothing. But that's not all, this very saying was reaped many times in the Bible.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
Ok now let's think about this too. The reason why I wanted to go deep into the trinity is because people think their is another living being inside of you called spirit, and many trinity teachers will say well this verse say that your spirit will go out, they think that means your so called spirit will go up in heaven, well this verse says out, not up, and second you will RETURN TO THE GROUND. Third most important thing to know and to reason on is.
"ON THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH"
Why? Because your thoughts is what makes you you, if that perish then truly their is nothing left of you to experience anything or feel pain or even have memory right?
Let's keep going.
Look! All the souls "to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son"to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
For those that believe that the soul survive the body, and goes to heaven here it say that the Soul that Sin WILL DIE. Not go to hell, but die.
Later if I'm given the chance I will tell more about the soul, so that we can know what exactly is the soul.
Here is my summary, from what the Bible says, their cannot be a hell, and it literally did not once mention people burning in flame, the Bible even say the state of your mind when you die, which is nothing, nothing at all, just like the way it was before you came into existence.
First off, I'd like to comment on your translations. That is not the only words used to translate for hell in the Bible.
First, a Bible quote. This is Mark 9:43:
"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"(1)
Now I'm going to talk about what the word is used for hell here. It is actually "yeeva" or "geenna"(2) What do these terms mean?
"^7;P51;^9;_7;_7;^5[this says yeeva just its a quote from the website, and DDO can't support the text. Check the link if you don't believe me.];
of Hebrew origin (1516 and Hinnom 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell."(3).
So this is clearly stating that there is eternal fire, and that hell exists. Moreover, to add from your comment section question, I am quoting from the KJV which is in 1611. That is over 200 years before what you are claiming changed the Bible's meaning. Also, it counters your claims that Hell is just death, because it says, "...thee to enter into life...".
I await your response.
your assumption is wrong.
if this was a chess game i would know your moves long before you even make them. why? because you clearly failed to prove everything that i have said wrong, and if you notice i choice to not go into the discussion of this "Ge-he-na" because I know that this is your only and i mean your only strong argument to proving that Hell is real.
i talked about
"she'ohl" or Hell
"Hai'des" or Hell
"Ge'ne'na" or eternal destruction
you did not comment on the meaning of She'ohl or Hai'des, becasue these are the actual term for Hell in both Hebrew and Greek.
"That is not the only words used to translate for hell in the Bible."
i agree with this, but the word translate is not necessary, Becasue it was never a translation but reediting something to mean something totally different. i will show you what i mean.
now your definition of Geena is not wrong, but you see you once again failed to really reason on it, and to look at how this word was use in the Bible, so i will show you.
please pay attention: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. this place was use for child sacrifice and immoral practice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna.
Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one"s "whole body" into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots.Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.
(Mark 9:47, 48)
47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into the Kingdom of God than to be thrown with two eyes into Ge"henR42;na, 48 where the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.
"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
this was not use (figuratively), it is a definite place that you can go even today.
The boundary went up to the Valley of the Son of HinR42;nom to the slope of the JebR42;u"site at the south, that is, Jerusalem, and the boundary went up to the top of the mountain that faces the Valley of HinR42;nom to the west, which is at the extremity of the Valley of RephR42;a"im to the north. 9 And the boundary was marked from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Neph"toR42;ah
He also made unfit for worship ToR42;pheth, which is in the Valley of the Sons of HinR42;nom, so that no one could make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to MoR42;lech.
In the times of the kings of Judah, from the eighth century B.C.E., this location was used for pagan rites, including the sacrificial burning of children in fire. (2 Chronicles 28:1-3; 33:1-6) The prophet Jeremiah foretold that the same valley would become the place of slaughter for Judeans at the hands of the Babylonians in judgment from God for their wickedness. Jeremiah 7:30-33; 19:6, 7.
no now you know that this Hell, was not a spiritual place after reading about it in that Bible,
and today this so called Hell is now known as (Wadi er-Rababi,)
just some things to point out. you did not prove
Ecclesiastic 9:5,10, Psalm 146:4 or EZEKIEL 18:4 wrong, as long as that stay standing im done proving that hell is not real. i do have many more to come, but if you cant handle this, i think my ground is pretty stable.
i just prove from the Bible that this Gehenna is a real place, but not spiritual. it used to be for burning bodies, but not life body, dead bodies, and a whole story took place in this very Gehenna in the Bible. unless you can prove that all those people where all in a spiritual place called hell using the Bible, then you win. so that took care of that.
The reason I didn't comment on them is because of the translation. You claim they are the orignal terms, but from what I showed that is not true.
Alright, I think you misunderstand something. The reason I didn't go through the verses is because you are just taking them out of context. I am just going to post verses that will explain everything for you.
Verses about Hell :
Deuteronomy 32:22, " For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."(1).
2 Samuel 22:6, "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"(2).
Psalm 86:13, "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." (3).
Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."(4).
Amos 9:2, "Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:" (5).
Matthew 11:23, "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (6).
Acts 2:27, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (7).
Acts 2:31, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (8).
Revelation 20:14, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (9).
Before I begin commenting on these verses, let me post a few definitions.
perhaps from the same as [=551;=554;=551;=526;] - oros 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky." (10).
from [=561;=557;=539;=559;] - psucho 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from [=552;=550;=541;=557;=549;=537;] - pneuma 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from [=562;=559;=544;] - zoe 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [=542;=537;=543;=559;] - phago 5315, 7307 and chay 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you." (11).
Okay, so here is why I posted those definitions. In the definition previously about Hell, it stated that the same word used for Hell is used for other things such as the place you talk about. It does not mean that every word for Hell in the Bible means that place. It just means the word used for them is the same. We are talking about scholars who were way more intelligent and had more understanding then you and I about these languages when they wrote the Bible. Do you honestly believe that we can interpret it better?
Now I'd like to give you an example. I will use the same thing you are doing about Hell, for Heaven. First, let's look at the word for Heaven. It also says air. Does that mean in Matthew 11:23 it really says that he was exalted unto air? Of course not. It means Heaven as in the real place. What I am saying is, you are using a translation and picking one word from it without having understanding that there are multiple meanings to the same word.
Now if you read all the Bible quotes, they are self explanitory. The key one to remember is Revelation 20:14. It says death and hell are cast into fire, and this is the second death. Keep in mind the second death.
All over the Bible, there is quotes talking about life and death. I'd like to post some quotes now:
John 11:25,"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (12).
John 11:26,"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (12).
1 Corinthians 15:44, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (13).
John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (14).
So I hope this explains everything to you. Jesus is stating that through him is life (going to Heaven) and that death is going to Hell. This is also understood because we have a spiritual body, and a natural body. This is why there is a second death. There is a physical death, which is the first death, then the spiritual death. Basically, your spirit goes to Heaven (life) or dies (goes to Hell).
In conclusion, I have done my best to show Longline that our modern understanding of Hell is correct. I have shown, specifically in this round, the same logic he uses for Hell with Heaven. Moreover, I have outlined many Bible verses that talk about Hell. Moreover, I have posted a Bible verse stating that there are two deaths. If there are two deaths, then Hell cannot be a place for just the physical body as my opponent understands. Lastly, my opponent has quoted verses about life. I have quoted a verse that Jesus is life. If anything, it is talking about entering Heaven (which is after the first death. You either enter Heaven or go to Hell).
I'd like to thank you for this debate Longline, and may the LORD GOD bless you.
On a side note, I believe from my reading of the Bible that Jesus is God. So yea, I'm not a trinitarian.
You posted: Deuteronomy 32:22, " For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
This was God talking about what his anger would have done to mankind, not what he is going to do or is doing, but just how hurt he was, kinda like saying if you where not my son I would have killed you, as you can see this in verse 32:27-31
27 If not for my dread of the enemy"s reaction, Because the adversaries might misconstrue it. They might say: "Our power has triumphed; It was not Jehovah who did all of this." 28 For they are a nation devoid of sense, And there is no understanding among them. 29 If only they were wise! They would ponder over this. They would think about their outcome. 30 How could one chase after 1,000, And two put 10,000 to flight? Not unless their Rock had sold them And Jehovah had surrendered them. 31 For their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies have understood this.
This same Bible verse, the only Bible that took out Sheol and put hell was the King James Version.
" American Standard Version" De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, And burneth unto the lowest Sheol, And devoureth the earth with its increase, And setteth on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Byington' has "world of the dead, and every other Bible including the Jerusalem version has Sheol.
"2 Samuel 22:6, "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"(2)."
I don't know why you even have this here, because this is David's prayer to Jehovah, everything in this verse is all metaphor, and riddles, and this is not even coming from God himself.
"Psalm 86:13, "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." (3)."
"King James Version" Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
"American Standard Version"Ps 86:13 For great is thy lovingkindness toward me; And thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.
Now you should be asking why only the King James Bible have Sheol replace for hell?
"Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.""
American Standard Version Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
Are you seeing a pattern?
"Amos 9:2, "Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:" (5)."
American Standard Version Am 9:2 Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them; and though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.
I do not need to go, but as you can see, the King James Version, replace Sheol and put hell to every place Sheol should be, and we know for a fact that the use of Sheol in the Bible was clearly not a spiritual place, but this place was used when talking about horrible even, Jesus use this place many times. and incase you do not know, but there are over thousands of mistakes in the King James Bible.
Over the centuries, many have believed that the King James Version is the only "true" Bible. In 1870, work on a full revision of it started in England. Later a minor American revision of the resulting English Revised Version was published as the American Standard Version. In a more recent revision, in 1982, the preface to the Revised Authorised Version says that effort was made "to maintain that lyrical quality which is so highly regarded in the Authorised Version" of 1611.
Although the Bible remains the world"s best seller"and the King James Version is the most popular one"Professor Richard G. Moulton was one of the worker on it.
In 1901 the American Standard Version was published. It was based on the text of the King James Version. Its preface states: "We are not insensible to the justly lauded beauty and vigor of the style of the Authorized [King James] Version." Yet, the American Standard Version made a significant adjustment.
The preface explains this: "The American Revisers, after a careful consideration, were brought to the unanimous conviction that a Jewish superstition, which regarded the Divine Name as too sacred to be uttered, ought no longer to dominate in the English or any other version of the Old Testament, as it fortunately does not in the numerous versions made by modern missionaries."
It is not that the divine name, Jehovah, does not appear at all in the King James Version. It does appear in four places, namely Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; and Isaiah 26:4. The American Standard Version of 1901, however, restored the name to some 7,000 of its rightful places in the Bible.
the American version also found that in the King James Bible many thing have been change from the original Hebrew text. King james took out many things from the Bible, that is how we have the teaching of the Trinity. Because he took out the Name "Jehovah" many reader do not know that Jehovah is actually not Jesus, that Jehovah and Jesus are different, but because King James felt that the Name Jehovah was to sacred, and should not be mention, note, because of that he had to change the entire Bible, this also bring other confusion today,
People worship Marry, instead of God, why? well because King James say that Jesus and God are one, and so if Jesus is God, and Mary is the mother of Jesus, and
Jesus also said that children should obey there parent therefore Jesus is to obey Mary his Mother, in other words, God is to obey mary, because that was what he said.
that is why you will see a lot of "Lord' in the King James Version, if you reason you know that the Word "LORD" is not a name, but a title, also the word "GOD" is also not a name but a title, i can call myself a God if i want, and i can also call myself Lord. by taking out Jehovah King James set a new religion and many confusions.
this is why those who teach the Trinity do not want you to ever read this Bible Verse.
THIS IS WHAT GOD THINK ABOUT THE WHOL IDEA OF HELL.
31 They have built the high places of ToR42;pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of HinR42;nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."
WHEN GOD SAW WHAT WAS TAKING PLACE IN GEHENA, HE SAID THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT COME TO HIS HEART.
Tell me if God himself is saying this is not something that he had commended us humans to do to each other and he tells you how he feels about it, would he turn around make that same nasty scene on a bigger scale?
KING JAMES god the idea of hell from the ASSYRIAN, AND THE ANCIENT BABYLONIAN,
1898, Moris Jastrow, JR.,P.581 early evidence of the fiery aspect of christendom's hell is found in the RELIGION OF ANCIENT EGYPT. (THE BOOK OF THE DEAD,NEW HYDE PARK. N.Y. 1960. PP.144,149.151,153,161. information of this book is dated all the way back to the 6th century. the Kings James Bible literally have over 1700 and more mistake in it.
"Okay, so here is why I posted those definitions. In the definition previously about Hell, it stated that the same word used for Hell is used for other things such as the place you talk about. It does not mean that every word for Hell in the Bible means that place. It just means the word used for them is the same."
listen to this, if come up with a saying base on my car, and that saying gets pass on to other people, when they use it, will they also not be using it in the same manor as i did?
for example " you know what they say what goes around comes around" clearly I'm using that the same way it was used, when first created. so its safe and reasonable to say when jesus first used it to describe the end time, many of his disciple where also going to use Gehena in the same why that Jesus used when talking to them.
"We are talking about scholars who were way more intelligent and had more understanding then you and I about these languages when they wrote the Bible. Do you honestly believe that we can interpret it better?"
and because they did the work now we can go throughout it without doing the actual research, meaning we can get to know more then they actually did.
'Now I'd like to give you an example. I will use the same thing you are doing about Hell, for Heaven. First, let's look at the word for Heaven. It also says air. Does that mean in Matthew 11:23 it really says that he was exalted unto air? Of course not. It means Heaven as in the real place. What I am saying is, you are using a translation and picking one word from it without having understanding that there are multiple meanings to the same word.'
it does not matter how many meaning their is, if you know the content in which it was use, it automatically cancel out the other meaning by itself, that is how english work i believe.
so you believe that there is another being inside of us right? then tell me please, when Adam sinned who was it that really sinned, was it Adam or the spirit?
Ezek. 18:4: "The soul that is sinning"it itself will die." (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word neR42;phesh in this verse as "soul," thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render neR42;phesh as "soul" in other passages use the expression "the man" or "the one" in this verse. So, the neR42;phesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.) (See the main heading "Soul" for further details.)
Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." (The Hebrew word here translated "spirit" is a derivative of ruR42;ach. Some translators render it "breath." When that ruR42;ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person"s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)
Remember when God made Adam? he took Adams Body from the dust, and he blow inside his nostrils the breath of life, and we know that Breath is spirit in Hebrew, that breath it like your battery, that is what keeping you alive, if you die that breath is gone, all that breath is a part of God himself that is in you keeping you alive without it, you will be dead, stop breathing and see what happens.
i already prove that this so call spirit, also die, which you did not comment on it later on
you still did not prove my previous Bible verse wrong, and that is very important, Because how can you be send to Hell if you will not know it, you will not see it or have any knowledge of it. your mind will be destroy, your spirit will be destroy everything that is known to be you, is gone. Even God said it that such enternal torment of human being is not in his heart, people will indeed die, that is in the Bible many times.
God also said that he a God of justice, tell me using this very knowledge that God give you, where is the justice, if you live not even for a 100Years lets say 98, and you did bad thing from the moment your are able to understand good and bad, is eternal torment a reasoning punishment for your sin? Adam who was perfect sinned, but the Bible never said that God send Adam to hell, it said that he die, that was it, Adam die, so the same for Eve.
If you do believe that God is a loving God, then please stop accusing him of burning humans in a eternal fire.
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