The Instigator
amigodana
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
musaking
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is the pope an anti-christ?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
amigodana
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 753 times Debate No: 66351
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

amigodana

Pro

1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

I will take the position that the pope is playing a part in creating a one world religion as described in Revelation 17:1-18 "the great harlot".

We will stay within the scriptures of the KJV.

Here are some supporting sources of my position, you may start at anytime as well.

http://www.reuters.com...

http://m.christianpost.com...
musaking

Con

The pope is a Christian who is not anti christ but pro christ, the anti christ denies christ, but the pope and the catholic doctrine all support the diety of christ and believe in jesus as the son of God.

Anyone who denies Jesus the son of God is the ani christ, all aethiests are anti christ. If anyone it is Satan himself and his angels who is the anti Christ.

Revelation 17-18 clearly identifies the woman riding the beast as the city of Babylon. In addition, verse 10 plainly states that the seven hills symbolize seven kings, five of which "have fallen, one is and one is to come." Clearly, this cannot refer to the seven hills of Rome. Rather, this is a reference to seven world empires ruled by the seven kings. At the time of the Revelation, five world empires had come and gone"Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece"one (Rome) existed, and one (Antichrist"s world empire) had not yet come.

Whoever the Antichrist turns out to be, the important thing is to be warned of his coming and learn to recognize him and all who possess his spirit. First John 4:2-3 tells us how to identify the spirit of Antichrist: "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (NKJV). The current Pope, Francis I, acknowledges Jesus as being from God and Jesus as coming in the flesh (see 1 John 4:2).
Debate Round No. 1
amigodana

Pro

The rule of this debate states that we will use the KJV and not another translation such as the NKJV. If you cannot do that then you need to forfeit.

Revelation 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Here is statement in plain words: "The woman ... is that great city." There is no reason for seeking some other hidden meaning. The woman is a city.

She is a city built on seven hills. Only one city has for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city can only be Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

Source: The Catholic Encyclopedia (Thomas Nelson, 1976), s.v. "Rome."

Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from I Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains more:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible [four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18 and in extrabiblical works such as Sibylling Oracles, the Apocalypse of Baruch, and 4 Esdras (3:1).
Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that "it is said that Peter's first epistle... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon."

Source: Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians" (Ignatius Press, 1988), p. 200.

Concerning the pope being anti christ;

Denying the Word of God is Anti-Christ, what more is there to say on that!

Source: http://news.google.com...
musaking

Con

Rev. 13:1-2 The beast has 7 heads with 10 horns and 10 crowns.
similar to Dan. 7:7-8, 20, 24 The beast had 10 horns, and another little horn came up among them and plucked out 3 of the first horns.
Claim: When the Roman Kingdom fell, it split into 10 kingdoms. Three of those kingdoms did not follow the doctrine of the Catholic Church and were subdued (or destroyed) because of that. The last of them (Ostrogoths) was destroyed in A.D. 538.
Reality: When the Roman Kingdom fell, many kingdoms arose from it, but not the same kingdoms (or the same number) as claimed. The Ostrogoths were still strongly defending themselves after 538 and were not defeated until 553. By then, of the claimed 10 kingdoms, 5 kingdoms (not 3) had been subdued, and 1 of the kingdoms still had not entered Roman territory. Also, adherence to Catholic doctrine was not a factor in whether or not a kingdom was conquered.
Read Part 3 for detailed information.

Rev. 13:3-4 The beast suffered a fatal wound that was healed.
Claim: The papacy suffered a "deadly wound" in 1798 when the Pope was captured by Napoleon's general. The wound has been healing since then.
Reality: There are many occasions in the history of the Catholic Church that could be considered "deadly wounds" that have healed. The verse implies only one fatal wound, not a series of struggles. There is no reason to pick the particular wound of 1798 over any other.
Read Part 4 for detailed information.

Rev. 13:5 The beast was given authority to rule for 42 months
Claim: This 42 months is 1260 days, which prophetically mean 1260 years. The rule of the Catholic Church (papacy) began in 538 and continued until the "deadly wound" in 1798--exactly 1260 years as prophesied.
Reality: There are several years that could be considered the beginning of the rule of the Catholic Church, but 538 is not one of them. Significant historical markers of the Catholic Church do not fit into a prophecy of 1260 years. Also, events that were supposed to be happening during these 1260 years would contradict other World Mission Society Church of God doctrine.
Read Part 5 and Part 6 for detailed information.

Rev. 13:6 / Dan. 7:25 The beast speaks blasphemy and tries to change the times and law.
Claim: The Pope is made equal with God, and Catholic priests are said to forgive sin. Both of those are examples of blasphemy. The Catholic Church has changed the sacred calendar (substituting Sunday for Saturday Sabbath, Easter for Passover, instituting Christmas) and has tried to change God's law (omitting and changing some of the 10 Commandments).
Reality: Official Catholic doctrine does not support the charge of blasphemy. Calendar issues are dealt with in other posts on this blog. The 10 Commandments are actually composed of 14 command statements. The Catholic Church still holds to all 10 Commandments, but they have combined them differently.
Read Part 7 for detailed information.

Rev. 13:18 The number of the beast is 666.
Claim: The Pope's mitre is inscribed with the title "Vicarius Filii Dei." When you add up the values of the Roman numerals in this title, the total equals 666.
Reality: There are many people whose names can add up to 666, depending on the method of computation. Since the Catholic Church doesn't match the description of the beast as claimed, it doesn't matter whether or not Vicarius Filii Dei is an official title of the Pope or what number it forms.
Read Part 8 for detailed information.

Conclusion: The 1260 years in the prophecy more likely refers to a future, literal 3 1/2 year time period. Could a Pope of the Catholic Church fulfill the prophecies of the beast in the future? Possibly, but so could many other world leaders. We can only speculate when thinking about the future. The theory of the Catholic Church already fulfilling the prophecies of the Antichrist fails.
Debate Round No. 2
amigodana

Pro

Part 1) You have addressed nothing that we are talking about. Where did I make any of those claims?

Part 2) Which book did you copy this from so that I can go read and respond, and I quote;

"Read Part 3 for detailed information."

"Read Part 4 for detailed information."

"Read Part 5 and Part 6 for detailed information."

"Read Part 7 for detailed information."

"Read Part 8 for detailed information."

It is my opinion that this debate is just a rouge for you to appear legitimate and further the sale of your ridiculous website on your profile. Don't waste my time or anybody Else's with your sneaky lying ways.

You are only proving to be a scam artist, nothing more and nothing less!

Now, if you can return to having a legitimate debate, I also will continue.
musaking

Con

the points i mentioned are additional characteristics which are used to define who the anti christ is. anyway to make u happy lets look at the 7 hills.

The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits" (Rev. 17 v.9) Geographically, it would be difficult to establish the seven hills of Rome. In addition, the context seems more to indicate that these are 7 kings or kingdoms (Isa. 2)

the seven hills are kings: Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." the first five represent five kings of the Roman Empire through John's lifetime; the existing king, Domitian was the sixth; thus we have the five that were, the sixth that is, and the seventh who is to come, referring to Antichrist at the end of time.
Debate Round No. 3
amigodana

Pro

Did you not read my rebuttal; even the catholic church acknowledges that geographically it is the city of seven hills.

Let me repeat;

The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

Source: The Catholic Encyclopedia (Thomas Nelson, 1976), s.v. "Rome."

Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from I Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains more:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible [four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18 and in extrabiblical works such as Sibylling Oracles, the Apocalypse of Baruch, and 4 Esdras (3:1).
Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that "it is said that Peter's first epistle... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon."

Source: Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians" (Ignatius Press, 1988), p. 200.
musaking

Con

musaking forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
amigodana

Pro

Psalms 136:1 "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Psalms 136:2 "O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Psalms 136:3 "O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Psalms 136:4 "To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Psalms 136:5 "To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever."
musaking

Con

musaking forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by tejretics 2 years ago
tejretics
Pro, while I don't agree with you, good work on your arguments. Well-researched and well done. I would have voted for you but I didn't know the existence of this debate. Awesome, @amigodana.
Regards,
Tejretics
Posted by amigodana 2 years ago
amigodana
Cognitive thinking is just not taught any more, is it?
Posted by Konduitt 2 years ago
Konduitt
How would THE LEADER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH be anti-Christ, this logic is just simply stupid
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
amigodanamusakingTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con ff several times
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
amigodanamusakingTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture