The Instigator
slave123
Con (against)
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The Contender
persianimmortal
Pro (for)
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Is the virgin birth possible???

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/25/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 474 times Debate No: 99285
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

slave123

Con

Jesus was not born of a virgin

Virgin birth is not possible

How can mother Mary give birth without having sex?

She must have been raped or had sex with someone

If your daughter comes to you and says she is pregnant and still a virgin would you believe her?

Of course not

If she was a virgin then her vagina must have a seal on it

How did Jesus get in her womb then if there was no entry?

How did God or the Holy Ghost have sex with mother Mary

Without breaking her virginity??

It makes no sense it's not possible

She was lying

Amen
persianimmortal

Pro

The Son of Man (or 'Son of Humanity, as some modern Christian theologians prefer to translate it) as referring to Jesus however the Christian tradition has been fairly vague about the terms meaning. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally; as the above quote from Gregory of Nazianzus emphasizes, God begot Christ 'without passion, of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner' ('The Third Theological Oration¬" On the Son' 161). The Qur'an echoes Gregory's recognition of God's transcendence when it says, 'Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son' (Quran 5:171).

Consequently, the word 'Son' must be understood in a metaphorical or symbolic sense; the same is true of the verb 'begotten' when applied to Jesus. One possible meaning of Son, rejected early by the mainstream of Christian theology, was the 'adoptionist' interpretation; that Jesus was an ordinary man, 'adopted' by God as His Son. The thing is Manifestations of God are simply, ordinary human beings; rather, the souls and essence of the Manifestations are pre-existent, in contrast to ordinary human beings, whose souls come into existence at the moment of conception. Manifestations are indeed unique creations of God, as the phrase 'only begotten' attempts to convey; it describes Jesus's mode of creation through an analogy with the physical world, an analogy that Gregory of Nazianzus, by qualifying the word in the above passage, admits has its limitations.

Another symbolic interpretation of the term 'Son' would be to argue that Jesus was the 'spiritual' Son of God. Various interpreters have taken this approach. One could say that all humans, including Jesus, are 'sons' of God, in other words, that all were created by God. This is true, but it undercuts the uniqueness of the title's application to Christ, probably unnecessarily, and undercuts the distinction that would be made between Jesus Christ and creation.

Another approach would be to argue that the title refers to the fact that Jesus, as a Manifestation of God, exemplified the relationship between humans and God in a unique and perfect fashion; Jesus was the true and perfect 'Son' in His obedience, His servitude to God, and His love for His Father. In this sense all the Manifestations of God are 'Sons' of God. Yet another approach would be to argue that while all Manifestations exemplify perfect Sonship., it was a particular and central characteristic of Jesus Christ's mission to exemplify such a relationship.

I prefer the last approach for several reasons. First, it conveys the emphases central to Jesus's mission, especially the stress on love. In the polytheistic days of Abraham, the focus of revelation had to be on the fact that only one God existed; in the time of Moses, the focus was on a simple legal relationship with God, based on laws; by the time of Jesus a deeper, more personal, more loving relationship could be stressed. Subsequently, Muhammad could attempt to balance the personal dimension of religion¬" the relationship of the individual to God‚¬" with the social dimension, the establishment of laws for building a religiously based society. Thus, the word 'Sonship' seems to capture a significant dimension of Jesus's message.

Second, historically 'Son of God' has been applied only to Jesus, however in terms of essence the term Son of God is applicable in a general way to all Manifestations of God.

Third, the title 'Son of Gods is an important and fitting counterpoint to the title 'Son of Man'; the two of them together bring out the twofold station of Jesus. Both expressions use the term 'Son' in the same symbolic fashion, to denote Jesus's perfect expression or embodiment of the two aspects of His nature.

Fourth, 'Son of God' alludes to the virgin birth of Jesus, an event that the Islamic and Baha'i­ writings validate as an historical event. The question is does the virgin birth only appear in Christianity? Well, no because virgin birth is nothing new in religion aka Hinduism, Egyptian religion...etc.
Debate Round No. 1
slave123

Con

First of all the debate is whether the virgin birth is possible

Not on what the son of God means

Most of pro's points were irrelevant therefore

His only argument for the virgin birth are Islamic and Baha'i writings

These are just stories not facts

I want facts and proof

If your daughter tells you she is a virgin and is pregnant will you believe her?

No of course not

It takes sperm and an egg to make a new baby

Unless mother Mary was some weird bisexual

She couldn't have become pregnant without having sex

She either got raped

Or had sex

This is a rational and more simple explanation

There is no evidence of any supernatural

So we must stick with what is provable

The burden of proof is on pro

So far he hasn't met the burden of proof

Thanks
persianimmortal

Pro

I would like to point out that the opponent did not read the argument in depth.
  • You stated that, the debate is whether the virgin birth is possible and not what the son of God means. Might I remind you that the foundation of this debate is the term Son of God, for it is the term bestowed on Christ after the Declaration of His Mission. This is in direct relation to the virgin birth and Him being the "only begotten Son". So I would like to invite you to read the argument again but this time in depth.


  • You stated that my only argument for the virgin birth are Islamic and Baha'i writings.The reason why I offer explanations from these angles is because the Christian ones clearly don't satisfy you so either you're a person who does not care for this matter to be resolved or you unfortunately have not acquianted yourself with the Christian explanation before familiarizing yourself with other explanations.

  • Next you stated that if my daughter tells me that she is a virgin and is pregnant would I believe her?Firstly, I do not have a daughter to react to that. Second, your example is irrelevant to the Biblical events that took place. If you recall, Mary did not announce Her pregnancy to Her father, rather She came to tell Her husband Joesph about the pregnancy. Keep in mind that, Mary has been away for three months, so we can be sure that Joseph is eager to see Her. When they meet, Mary likely tells him of Her condition, doing Her best to explain that her pregnancy is by means of God’s holy spirit. Yet, as you can imagine, this is a very difficult thing for Joseph to understand and to believe. So while Joseph is contemplating on this issue, he falls asleep and from Matthew 1:18 onward it clearly tells us what happens. I will copy and paste it for you and the audience and I urge y'all to read it with absolute reverence and clarity:



  • (Matt 1:18) This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
  • (Matt 1:19) Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
  • (Matt 1:20) But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
  • (Matt 1:21) She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
  • (Matt 1:22) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
  • (Matt 1:23) "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").
  • (Matt 1:24) When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
  • (Matt 1:25) But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
So now that we can see what Joseph had to go through in order to eliminate any doubt in his mind, it has nothing to do with what I would feel if my hypthetical daughter came to me and said such things. It was a miracle of God Almighty and that is that. Consider in the above argument that God begot Christ 'without passion meaning the God does not have testicles for testicles are the biological identification to the male gender. And to my understanding this is your argument, and the Qur'an agrees with you that passion is not involved in the begetting of Christ. Remember God is genderless, Unknowable yet our only Guide, Unseeable yet Beautiful, Merciful yet Powerful.
Debate Round No. 2
slave123

Con

Pro quotes scriptures as his proof of the virgin birth

Again these are fairy tales not facts

I asked for hard evidence for the virgin birth and I got none

A vagina is sealed on a virgin

How can a woman get pregnant if no semon goes through her vagina?

It's clearly not possible

Sperm and egg is required to be pregnant

A normal woman can't become pregnant by herself

Unless she is a weird bisexual creature

Mother Mary was supposed to be a righteous woman

Not a freak of nature

I don't care what scripture says

She either got raped or committed adultery

Or this entire story of the virgin birth is fabricated

Pro has no proof for his case

Scripture proves nothing

I could write my own scripture about flying pigs

Does that mean they exist?

Likewise a scripture that says a virgin birth happened is false

Think for yourself pro

Conclusion:

The burden of proof is still on pro

He hasn't met the burden of proof

He only quotes fairy tales and uses circular reasoning

And goes off topic by defining Son of God

Which is irrelevant to this debate

Thanks I had a wonderful debate though
persianimmortal

Pro

I would like to again state that Con has not read my arguments in depth and has not provided a response to counter my arguments, but a mere rejection.

You stated that, Pro quotes scriptures as his proof of the virgin birth
The events you refer to and the whole reason why we are even having this debate is because of the Scriptures so it would quite ignorant of me as a religious person not to include religious scripture as a form of explanation. As I stated before, the reason why I even offered those explanations from those angles is because the Christian explanations clearly don't satisfy you so again, either you're a person who does not care for this matter to be resolved or you unfortunately have not acquianted yourself with the Christian explanation before familiarizing yourself with other explanations. So I would highly recommend that you truly understand where the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Baha'i explanations stand on this matter before walking into a debate, unfamiliar with everything.


Again these are fairy tales not facts
This is a matter of opinion to which you are fully entitled to. However I would like to state that in fact what you are expecting of this debate is to see evidence of fairy pixie dust residue in order for you to believe it. The fact is it happened but according to you, an event of such majesty such have some kind of evidence that it showed it really happened. Well my, friend thats the point of miracles; to get you to understand that at miracles are most definitley not the foundation of Faith, for had it been the foundation, Christ would have been Cruxified with more than simply 12 followers and His Apostles would have used His Virgin Birth as a spectacular proof to the legitimacy of His claims. So in clonclusion, your expectations of miracles is clearly what Christ is asking you to look away from, because His Message is what is meant to be accepted, and miracles are a part of that that commence their role Post-Acceptance not Pre-Acceptance.

I asked for hard evidence for the virgin birth and I got none
Again, if you are look for pixie dust residue that is evident under blacklight which points to the Virgin Birth, I'll tell you now, you're not going to get any. But again that is the point of miracles and your expectation of miracles is something the Christ is asking you to look away from. I will direct your attention to the following verses:

You judge me by human standards, but I do not judge anyone. (John 8:15)

Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly." (John 7:24)

You are looking at outward appearances. (2 Corinthians 10:7)

A vagina is sealed on a virgin
Yes but Mary's virginity is seal from human standards, a standard to which you yourself and likeminded individuals such as yourself, are succumbing to. As the Bible states, you are judging by the standard of a human, pre-acceptance of His Message, but let's say you believed in Christ, will the Virgin Birth have any effect on your personal growth spritually and mentally and would the prerequisite of accepting the Laws of God, passed down to His Christ, involve you trying to apply a virgin birth in your life? I would have to say no, because it is the Laws, the Commandments, the Teachings, the Guidance of Christ that contributed to an ever-advancing civilization, not the Virgin Birth. The Virgin Birth is a miracle that is integrated Post-acceptance of the belief.

How can a woman get pregnant if no semon goes through her vagina?
My friend I understand that you are genuinely confused on this matter and this confusion is exactly shown by Joseph who is Mar's husband. I understand how you feel. But understand that the principle of harmony between religion and science, while it enables us, with the help of reason, to see through the falsity of superstitions, does not imply that truth is limited to what can be explained by current scientific concepts. Not only do all religions have their miracles and mysteries, but religion itself, and certain fundamental religious concepts, such as the nature of the Manifestations of God, are far from being explicable by present-day scientific theories. So if you are trying to investigate Christianity wholeheartedly, I would suggest that you investigate things that really have an impact on your life and really get you to redirect your current way of living to a life filled with spirituality, and the Virgin Birth cannot do that for you, but the Teachings of the Blessed Martyr (Jesus of Nazareth, God's Christ) can.

Not a freak of nature
My friend human beings are ALL freaks of nature. The fact that you choose to take the time to read, understand, and debate matters that have happened within the history of a Religion of God, and not go in the shade of a tree and scratch yourself like a dog would with its hind, makes you a freak of nature. The fact that you have the ability to perceive a certain event and provide your opinion about makes you a freak of nature. You don't see chickens being the advocates of the "chicken race", providing academic rebuttals as to why the production and consumption of chicken burgers are immoral in front of an international news agency. The fact that you even respond to me by typing out words that you generated in your mind makes you a freak of nature, becuase you don't see a Lion telling us the science behind the consumption of protein. We are all freaks of nature.

I don't care what scripture says
If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't be having this debate, not would you be on this awesome website to begin with. So subconsciously you do care, you just don't realize it. Oh and might I remind you, the Virgin Birth IS from the Scriptures so the only way of you knowing about it would have been your hearing someone who as read the Scriptures or read it yourself. So you do care and we all appreciate your caring attitude for even raising this debate in the first place.

She either got raped or committed adultery
You aren't Mary's husband nor are you related by any blood ties so you shouldn't care is She was or wasn't. Joseph was the one to deal with it, we searched for a solution and the solution became clear for him so I don't see how your concern would be beneficial for anyone. It's not like Joseph is going to rise from the ashes of death and then say, "What?! Oh man!! This guy figured it out! He's so right. Yep, now we gotta stone'er." .....No, not gonna happen lol.

I could write my own scripture about flying pigs
Yea, you sure could and I would definitely challenge you to write your own scripture. Just to let you know it's a long process and can't be done over night. So basically you would have to start now, because you have 4000 years of writing to do about pigs flying. The thing is you would have to get so your peeps to lend you a hand to essentially write things about pigs flying, over an extended period of time but keep in mind they all have to succeed one another. So you would have to choose 4000 years worth of generations to continue this project for you and good luck convincing them that they have to. Next you would have to start pointing to a messiah-like figure that will essentially fulfill your writings that you and your compadres have done for 4000 years. This messiah-like figure would have to continue on the theme of flying pigs for 30 years then for the next 45 years, his apostles would have to guide his "flying pig church". Then they would have to maintain the unity of the believers so that they would not break off into sects like the "Church of the Flying Pigs Reformed" type of thing. So overall you are looking at writing a 1280-plus page book over a time span of 4095 years. Good friggen luck.

In conclusion to my above statements, my opponent has NOT read the Bible and has deem something he has not understood as false. Listen my friend, people fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer. Please read the Bible...6.8 million Jews, 2 billion Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims, 7.2 million Bahais recommend it.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by slave123 11 months ago
slave123
Ok what ever

It was a fun read though

I love reading scriptures

Are you bahi though by the way?

I recently contacted them
Posted by persianimmortal 11 months ago
persianimmortal
And you don't have to believe it and you have done things that most people have not done yet which is even read it. but in the end, Christ asks you not to judge on human standards.
Posted by slave123 11 months ago
slave123
By the way I have read the entire bible I just don't believe in it
Posted by persianimmortal 11 months ago
persianimmortal
I would really like to hear from my Christian Brothers and Sisters on my performance in this debate and whether I, as a non-Christian, did satisfy your view in the defense of this subject.
Posted by slave123 11 months ago
slave123
I know Muslims believe it

But I'm not sure if I believe it

How could Jesus get into Mary's womb

If her vagina was sealed???

And how could God or the Holy Ghost

Have sex with Mary ?

Without breaking her virginity?
Posted by Plasmawipes 11 months ago
Plasmawipes
Its say that your a sunni muslim it is so interesting how you reject your own belief in Jesus. Muslims believe in Immaculate Conception. This must be a joke. The Quran teaches that no man touched married but that the Angel of Allah came to her of the good tidings from above.
Posted by Plasmawipes 11 months ago
Plasmawipes
with God all things are possible.
Posted by Fletch290 11 months ago
Fletch290
The answer is no, it is not possible, it's a miracle, and that is why it is kind of a big deal!
The virgin birth was a sign to the Jews that the Messiah they were supposed to watch for was coming.
Isaiah chapter 7:10-16 records the sign given by God to King Ahaz, here is verse 14

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

So there is no use in debating you as it is impossible for a virgin to conceive, for without God it is impossible. And no, God did not in any way sleep with her, logically speaking, if the bible is true (which i 100% believe) and if there is than a Being who is all powerful and made everything in existence in an instant, a Being who also created her,

( 13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother"s womb.

14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.) Psalm 139:13-14

You can assume that He is also powerful enough to cause a virgin to conceive without a sexual act.
Posted by MagicAintReal 11 months ago
MagicAintReal
Technically a dude could jizz on a girl's labia and the more adventurous sperm could make it into the female and impregnate her without intercourse.
It actually happens.
Posted by canis 11 months ago
canis
Yes..If you give birth to a child 15 months after you had sex with your husband... Well only virgin birth is a possibilety.
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