The Instigator
misterman56
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
kkjnay
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Is there a Gender Wage Gape?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
kkjnay
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 708 times Debate No: 86284
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

misterman56

Con

I go by the argument that the so called "gender wage gap" is a flat out myth.

To begin I will give you the origins of why it was created. Everybody knows of the history of women and how unequal ther were treated which included women not being noticed for the 14th and 15th amendment of the united stated, not being able to legally vote until 1920 with the passing of the 19th amendment etc. But in today's society their had been the on going lie about a gender wage gap. This myth has been spiraled out of control by no other then democratic liberals. Even with today's campaigns of Hillary clinton and Bernie Sanders, they always say i'm for women rights or i will fight for women equality. But their words don't go with the actions, because they know there is nothing to do and they only say that to get votes from women who think their oppressed.

if you look into a broad spectrum it will show men getting more money than woman in a specific job field. But if you look deeper into each job field it will unleash the truth.

1. Their is more men who are in that certain field

2. Majority of women work less hours then men and take breaks for children etc.

3. More women go into lower paying jobs in the job field. For example their is a lot more women nurses in than doctors.

4. if their was a gender gap then why wouldn't companies hire all women and save money because they dont have to pay them as much?

these are my reasons. I challenge someone to debate my well put logic.
kkjnay

Pro

Since there is no outline for the rounds of this debate, I'll start with a rebuttal and short argument.

First I'll start off by saying, there is indeed a real gender wage gap. The only real question is what percent of the gender wage gap accounts for real employer discrimination or institutional sexism. The points you have put forth are not groundbreaking by any means, in fact both researchers and professionals in the field of economics and labor statistics account for this in their calculation of the real gender wage gap.

"1. Their is more men who are in that certain field"
"3. More women go into lower paying jobs in the job field. For example their is a lot more women nurses in than doctors."

I'll start by saying, this is a perfect example of you directly contradicting yourself. If women are paid less because there aren't as many women in the field, why are nurses, a field consisting of a vast majority of women, still paid less than men?

In one study, conducted by UCSF, Male Nurses on average made $5,000 dollars more each year than Female Nurses. Cite: https://www.ucsf.edu...

As you can see, the gender wage gap exists in nearly every field, even those job fields that the public views as predominantly women.

There is also conclusive evidence that female doctors make significantly less money than male doctors. Male doctors made in excess of $12,000 more than their female counterparts. Cite: http://www.forbes.com...

Now that I have refuted those two arguments, I'll refute your arguments number two and number four.

"2. Majority of women work less hours then men and take breaks for children etc."

"4. if their was a gender gap then why wouldn't companies hire all women and save money because they dont have to pay them as much?"

So, here's where you are confused on this:

Employers are only legally required to pay minimum wage in the first place. Why not just pay everyone the bare minimum to save money?
You can clearly see that this is not a real argument for this debate as you can easily extend this to men, or the entire workforce.

Let's put your "well put logic" to the test.

1. If employers can outsource jobs and get away with paying employees less, why are there any jobs in the U.S. at all?

2. If employers can pay undocumented immigrants less than american citizens, why do american citizens still have jobs?

So, using your logic you could also conclude that outsourcing is fake and illegal immigrants do not exist. Unfortunately you would be wrong on all three accounts. Outsourcing does happen, illegal immigrants exist, and the Gender Wage Gap is real.

The point is, they don't have to pay some employees as much as they do. If employers could get away with paying everyone the bare minimum without worrying that they would be inefficient or just quit, they probably would. The reason employers by and large pay men more than women is, to put it bluntly, because they prefer men.

The reasoning behind underpaying women is that they are not as efficient, they don't work as hard, etc. The entire premise behind the gender wage gap seeks to account for the sexism by employers, seeking to find out the exact percentage which represents their feelings that men are worth more than women. Employers would rather have men in nearly every job field. Even when accounting for the fact that women are more likely to be employed in some lower paying jobs, childbirth, part time work etc. you will still find a percentage that varies between 5-20% difference in pay, favoring men.

Another aspect of this is that this information that women often encounter circumstances in the workplace that men frankly do not. Women are often expected to take time off to raise children. Women have kids, and women are moms, men are not. The fact that you start off with referencing this leads me to an important point: These same arguments you present are used by employers to discriminate against female employees in both the hiring process and the wage determination and raises process. At every step of the way employers consider that "well she'll probably quit and have kids soon no need for a raise" while looking at the man doing the same work and concluding "wow great work, he won't have to raise kids, let's give him a raise."

This is the reality of the Gender Wage Gap. There is a real income gap, and a gap that only sexism could account for. Women are more likely to have higher levels of high school graduation and college education and yet still, even when accounting for part time work and taking time off, a Bureau of Labor Statistics study clearly shows that men and women who work the same amount of hours do not get equal pay, " A large majority of both male and female full-time workers had a 40-hour workweek; among these workers, women earned 88 percent as much as men earned" Cite: http://www.bls.gov...

I have now refuted all of your arguments and provided some of my own, so I leave it up to you to find some sort of proof for your claim.

I look forward to the rest of this debate.

Citations:
https://www.ucsf.edu...
http://www.forbes.com...
http://www.bls.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
misterman56

Con

This is fun and I like a good challenge. However your strong points created are false and let me break it down.

To begin again there is no gender wage gap that people say (or atleast the liberals and feminist say) this is misleading as men and women get paid the same for their work that doesn't seem so in the broad look of it. This is the 21st century and feminist around still say their oppressed... they say for men that are paid 1 dollar women only make 77 cents. and my fellow arguer has said things that proved my points wrong? well he/she has not.

My first point created about how I "contradicted myself" with my first examples seems to be true but I didn't elaborate and his/her response is a broad accusation. There are tons of different nursing fields, being a nurse for paediatrics or family medicine which the lowest paying jobs who are mostly worked my women to other nursing jobs like emergency room nurse, burn care nurse or surgical nurse that is a man majority and guess what, those jobs get a lot more money than the lower paying nurse jobs who are worked by mostly women.

this video helps describe my point made and other points made in my previous argument: https://www.youtube.com.... So as you can see everything my fellow argued here will be brought without specific detail on each job in the field.

Even with doctors there is a wide variety of doctors that stretches pages and pages like the one seen here: https://www.aamc.org... so I have stopped the broad generalization argument here.

Second "why not just pay everyone the bare minimum to save money?" is what my opponent has said well this is obvious and its because people get degrees to do their jobs and they would quit like you have said if they got paid so low. This doesn't answer the question if there was a wage gap then why not hire only women.

This is the best argument my opponent makes "If employers can outsource jobs and get away with paying employees less, why are there any jobs in the U.S. at all?" and "If employers can pay undocumented immigrants less than American citizens, why do American citizens still have jobs?"

Ok so your saying if illegals are paid so low, and they are for the jobs they do. But lets see here and take a thought on what kind of jobs do illegals work? They do labor work and under the table work, why? because they have no skills and are illegal that's right. So you're saying illegals should do jobs like brain surgeons because the companies will paid less them less and save money? Ok lets make a unskilled illegal become a brain surgeon and do an operation on you so you won't have to pay much money. But the success rate is 5% but hey lets give it a shot.
You see women who do jobs higher up jobs like being a doctor are qualified and went to school to do that. which puts so many holes in your argument that it looks like swiss cheese. Yum!

Also, no they don't prefer men and has nothing to do with sexism or discrimination on that matter which is backed up with actually looking in depth of the job fields that no article ever does that supports the gender wage gap because it would show the truth.

Next it is true that women have to take less hours because of raising kids and what not but companies have businesses and its great that a women gets to fulfill a amazing thing if giving birth and raising a kid and there is no discrimination in the hiring process its just the facts that if women can't do the job at the moment because their working less hours for a baby.So they hire someone who can do the job and the crazy amount of hours which most men can because they don't give birth to babies. There is nothing sexist about it the people are just making their business the best it can be by hiring people who can work longer and women who get hired can't so they make less like it says in your last citation. Example say john worked 80 hours last week and Susan only worked 50 hours so yes john will get more money for that week.

To conclude I have shown you why your arguments are invalid and really look into your citations because like I said before it only shows the onion itself but never does it peel the onion to see what the truth really is.

Citations:
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.aamc.org...
kkjnay

Pro

I'll start by saying, you have not provided any valid arguments as to why my refutations and arguments do not stand. I would also like to mention that I checked into your sources, which, as it stands are 1. A personal opinion youtube video 2. A page which shows you different professions for medical doctors. You have presented no information which suggests that female doctors opt to go into lower paying fields. If you have any information to further your case I would encourage you to do so, as you are making an assertion, the burden of proof is on you.

As for the Nursing field, it makes absolutely no sense to state that women only comprise the lowest paying fields within Nursing. A more accurate assessment would be that women take up the majority of all fields within nursing, regardless of pay grade, as they are over 93% of the workforce. Cite: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov...

Even though they take up the majority of the workforce and high paying jobs Female Nurses still make, on average, $5,000 a year less than Male Nurses in the same fields.
Cite: https://www.ucsf.edu...

"This is the best argument my opponent makes "If employers can outsource jobs and get away with paying employees less, why are there any jobs in the U.S. at all?" "

I am glad that you recognize this was a good argument. Unfortunately you didn't seem to realize I was applying your logic that "if there is a wage gap why don't companies hire all women for cheaper wages" to other areas, so saying that it " puts so many holes in your argument that it looks like swiss cheese" is essentially a concession by you. I am glad that you now realize your argument does not make sense though.

I won't even go into your rant about illegal immigrants and conservative talking points as it is ultimately irrelevant. We are after all debating the existence of a gender wage gap.

"Example say john worked 80 hours last week and Susan only worked 50 hours so yes john will get more money for that week."

I would encourage you to look into my citations as that is not what the article stated. It states that women working the same amount of hours as men make 86% of the male workers.

I.e. John and Susan both work 50 hours a week, Susan makes 12% less than John. Cite: http://www.bls.gov...

"Also, no they don't prefer men and has nothing to do with sexism or discrimination on that matter which is backed up with actually looking in depth of the job fields that no article ever does that supports the gender wage gap because it would show the truth."

Well, I have already linked a few sources which prove the existence of the gender wage gap, but if you don't trust the Bureau of Labor Statistics I will provide you another reference. The American Journal of Sociology states "that the average of the industry-specific raw relative wages of women compared to men was 81%.". Meaning women made 81% of their male counterparts. Cite: http://faculty.uml.edu...

I'll reiterate quickly, the gender wage gap is real, as cited by scholarly articles even when adjusting for the different lifestyles of men and women which impact pay rate.
My arguments and rebuttals still stand, as there has been no information or adequate refutation presented.

I look forward to the final round of this debate.
Debate Round No. 2
misterman56

Con

To start I will give you my last insights on why its a proven fact that the gender wage gap is a myth to scare women to vote for the democratic party, on that note Obama is about to leave office and with his almost eight years he hasn't fixed this so called "wage gap" that's because there is nothing to fix. With my sources the video gave factual evidence that there is so many aspects that go into jobs like list of jobs, pay average in the certain job, different pay according to each state, the different work of races, working styles of women at different ages, etc. Even fact that women put in 7% less hours than men. The funny thing is your citation: http://www.bls.gov... goes against you and toward my position like the information presented "Women are more likely than men to work part time—that is, less than 35 hours per week on a sole, or principal, job." or "men are more likely than women to have a longer workweek. Twenty-six percent of men worked 41 or more hours per week in 2012, compared with 14 percent of women who did so" these quotes are both in your article you have presented which show the flaw in your argument.

Next I gave no actual evidence is what my opponent says. He is disregarding the facts I have already given but ill show more to sooth him. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com... first yes this a big link second it present a chart of "Full time workers in 2013: Women's Earnings as a Percent of Men's, Various Characteristics. Which shows single women with no children earned 96.1% of what men make, without going into the factor in career and education choices. Also the chart shows women who are married with kids at 78% which shows why in a broad spectrum that you can see in tons of articles brings the percent down making it look like there's a wage gap due to sexism which of course is false.

Then I'm given that out of all nursing fields 93% are dominated by women while men represent 7%. On Google there is said to be 3.1 million RNs in America which makes men about 100 thousand. So that makes 3 million more women than men but men still make an average of 5.1 thousand dollars more? That is impossible and I call this cite an outright lie. For this to be true with any job field a man would have to make more than double as much as a woman makes for example a critical nurse makes about 75,000 dollars per year so a man would have to make 150,000 dollars per year which does not add up to any statistic given, especially if an average woman makes 77 cents to every mans 1 dollar earned.

This next parts starts awkward and I take the blame. I should not of tried to be sarcastic on an online website and I said it was your best argument trying to be sarcastic because truthfully it was your worst argument. Anyway me destroying your argument here and you still not understanding is funny to me, because me saying replacing women for less spending would make sense if there was a real gender wage gap because those women are qualified with schooling and degrees, which women have excelled over men with. And you were not applying my logic to other areas and if you were then where? You said "Employers are only legally required to pay minimum wage in the first place. Why not just pay everyone the bare minimum to save money?
You can clearly see that this is not a real argument for this debate as you can easily extend this to men, or the entire workforce." but having minimum wage has nothing to do with my argument, so companies cant pay women lower than the minimum wage, ok duh, so men who have a job that makes 85 thousand per year, then adding you logic women get paid thousand less than that, well why doesn't the company hire all women and fire the men so they don't have to pay everyone in the certain job field 85 thousand per year and still pay above the minimum wage.

Next with you quote " If employers can outsource jobs and get away with paying employees less, why are there any jobs in the U.S. At all?" so with this logic that you said in your first argument there'd should be no jobs in the U.S. Because employers can pay employees less? less than what? Your main argument is that women are paid less than men. Isn't this a contradiction to yourself saying there would be no jobs in the U.S because people are paid less, well you say that women are paid less so your argument doesn't make any sense.

Going back to your last argument you say " I am glad that you now realize your argument does not make sense though."... Really now I don't want to be mean but I was talking about your argument not making sense, that's what this whole debate is about so acting like I said my argument not making sense really makes you look stupid.

Then you totally disregard my counter argument of why not make illegals have all the jobs over Americans. Again I try to make you understand with small words and straight to the point. Illegal immigrants are unskilled, making illegal immigrants have high skill jobs won't work then the economy falls because no one who has a job is skilled to do the job.

With you trying to depict my John and Susan example I have showed you how your own cite proves my point correct, so next time actually read you cite thoroughly.

Then you say how your sources prove with Gender wage gap and how I don't trust the Bureau of Labor Statistics you say with your next cite that women make 81% of male counterparts. Well first I don't distrust the Bureau of Labor Statistics I just have repeatedly said they only show the broad side of it and not the whole picture. Again, they don't look into the percent of each different jobs in a broad field or how many hours women work less than men etc. Then with your 83% statistic your cite presented wont even open and gives the tab an error 404. I don't know why or if it will show up for others who read this but I cant challenge it because it doesn't show but with my educated guess it probably also shows a broad aspect only and doesn't go into detail why it's at 83%.

In conclusion the gender wage gap is a myth that is only believed to be true for liberals to get votes, and like I said before Obama "believes" in the myth but has attempted nothing to effectively stop it, why because he knows it's a lie but pretends to acts like it's real for support from women. But the truth is there will be no plan to stop it gap because it is not real. With my evidence is no democratic president has attempted to stop it. I have given insight on why so many articles show a gap but they never show the details of their statistics, and I know I keep repeating myself but some people just don't get it so I will keep saying it until they do.
My arguments are the facts and my opponents are lies or they don't make sense. He will try to say mine don't but use you common sense when you look at mine compared to his.




kkjnay

Pro

Well, it's clear to me that Con's arguments continue to devolve quite rapidly. Con uses the last round of this debate for name calling, and declaring my sources false or "lies", blaming statistics on a liberal bias, and arguing off topic about illegal immigrants.

I will reinforce my arguments and address Con's confusion during this last round of the debate.

Starting with:

"Earnings of workers paid by the hour Sixty-two percent of women and 56 percent of men employed in wage and salary jobs were paid by the hour in 2012. Women who were paid hourly rates had median hourly earnings of $11.99, which was 86 percent of the median for men paid by the hour ($13.88). (See tables 8 and 11"
Cite: http://www.bls.gov...

I fail to see how this goes against my case, as it is exactly what I was saying. Men working more hours than women would be irrelevant in this example as it is hourly wages, not annual income. You can clearly see that according to this study, women make 86% of what men make in hourly wages. Men working more hours would not be calculated in the equation at all. You can also see that this sample size is almost equal in men and women, with 8% more women. It still shows a wage gap by gender, with men making on average 12% more in hourly wages than women.

Another example of your persistent cherry picking of facts is in your own source, even one example you cited, directly go against your case. The white house even states ""no matter how you evaluate the data, there remains a pay gap " even after factoring in the kind of work people do, or qualifications such as education and experience " and there is good evidence that discrimination contributes to the persistent pay disparity between men and women.""

This is a clear cut case of confirmation bias. While I acknowledge Con's concerns that the gender wage gap is due in part to differences in lifestyle etc. each source still states that a margin that is not accounted for by these differences, shows that women consistently make lower wages and salaries than men. If you check Con's source it does not show men and women making the same income or hourly wages even when you adjust for women getting married etc. Con's main argument against a gender wage gap continues to be that it is just part of a liberal agenda pushed by liars. In fact his article he cites flat out states that women make 90 some cents on the dollar compared to men, but he chooses to ignore this statistic. Granted this is a smaller gap than most sources, it is likely not the only figure you should reference. I have provided multiple references which suggest that the wage gap varies from study to study, but there has not yet been a source that shows equal pay for men and women even when adjusting for lifestyle differences, women having kids, or women getting married.

Con's argues that the gender wage gap is fake because women don't work as many hours, and they get married, get pregnant, etc. His own article he cited however, clearly shows that unmarried women with no plans for kids, working the same hours do not get paid equally.

The fact is, even when you account for lifestyle differences of the two genders, you continue to see a gender wage gap. The entire premise Con is arguing is that they take lower paying jobs, and they work less, so why is it that when you control for these two variables you get the same result? You will still find a wage gap between male and female workers in the same job field, and between men and women working the same hours in these job fields. The reality is that it doesn't matter what field women choose to go into, they can be assured that wherever they go, be it a blue collar or white collar job, the medical field, or even Hollywood they will see a stark contrast in their pay when compared with men.

"Then I'm given that out of all nursing fields 93% are dominated by women while men represent 7%. On Google there is said to be 3.1 million RNs in America which makes men about 100 thousand. So that makes 3 million more women than men but men still make an average of 5.1 thousand dollars more? That is impossible and I call this cite an outright lie. For this to be true with any job field a man would have to make more than double as much as a woman makes for example a critical nurse makes about 75,000 dollars per year so a man would have to make 150,000 dollars per year which does not add up to any statistic given, especially if an average woman makes 77 cents to every mans 1 dollar earned."

I really am confused as to what you are saying here. My source shows that, yes, male nurses do make on average $5000 dollars or more a year than female nurses. I do not know what equation you used to determine that a man would have to make two times what a female nurse would make, which would then be $75,000 more a year for it to be true that men make 5,000 dollars more a year on average. This is just poor math, misreading, I don't know what else to call it. This entire paragraph of your argument just shows a complete lack of any logic whatsoever. My citation was a valid source, and to me, your argument seems to be here that because you don't understand the study, it must be a lie.
Cite: https://www.ucsf.edu...

I want to address this specific part of your argument, because this is where the main problem lies.

"On Google there is said to be 3.1 million RNs in America which makes men about 100 thousand. So that makes 3 million more women than men but men still make an average of 5.1 thousand dollars more? That is impossible and I call this cite an outright lie. "

I am sorry to tell you that this statistic is not a lie, and it is possible. The average wage by gender has nothing to do with the total number of men and women. It is just as possible for a gender that comprises a smaller amount of the workforce to have a higher average wage, as it is possible for the opposite to be true.

Ex. The sum of 3 million individual female nurse salaries divided by 3 million = 75,000, The sum of 100,000 individual male nurse salaries divided by 100,000 = 80,000

I realize that these numbers might be shocking to you, and that a field so dominated by women still pays men more on average, but that does not mean that facts are false.

I would remind voters that the burden of proof is on Con, as he is making the assertion that the gender wage gap is not real. He has not yet provided empirical evidence or even a single statistic that suggests there is no gap in pay between the sexes. The closest he comes to a real argument is to cite a personal opinion article based off of BLS data that already adjusts for lifestyle differences, that states the gender wage gap is smaller than 77 cents on the dollar and closer to 90 cents on the dollar. When the calculation comes forward that women still don't get paid equally, he chalks it up to the same lifestyle differences that it has already adjusted for. I am sorry to say that is not how statistics works... you cannot control for a variable and then when you find an answer you don't like, that women get paid less than men, try to explain the gap by the same extraneous variable you have already controlled for.

During this debate I have successfully maintained the argument that the Gender Wage Gap is real, using various studies and verifiable data. I have also refuted every one of my opponent's claims. I have proved that even when women work the same amount of hours as men, they do not get paid an equal amount. I have also proved that even in the same careers as men, they do not make an equal amount. I have shown that there is more to to pay disparity for women than career and lifestyle choices, and that the gender wage gap is in fact real.

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate.

Citations:
http://faculty.uml.edu...
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Petfish// Mod action: Removed<

1 point to Pro (S&G). Reasons for voting decision: Constant punctuation mistakes and similar errors on Con's side. "Their is more men" is unacceptable. S&G to Pro.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter has to do more than simply provide an example and state that there are punctuation errors to award S&G. Unless one side's arguments are difficult to understand, this point should not be awarded.
************************************************************************
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
RFD 1/2

Con starts the debate off with 4 statements that make up their early argument. These are that more men are in certain fields, women work less hours, women go into lower paying jobs, and that if there were a gender wage gap countries would just hire women and save money. Pro starts off with rebuttals. They state that women in lower paying jobs such as nurses still earn less than male nurses, which refutes Con's 1st and 3rd argument. To refute the 4th argument Pro states that in the other case, employers can simply pay everyone minimum wage regardless of gender. Pro twists the 2nd contention of Con to use it as their own argument that the assumption that women will quit to raise kids is a reason they are discriminated against at the workplace when it comes to salary.

To respond Con states that there are many different nursing fields and that men normally take the highest paid jobs. No source provided however. Con does the same for doctors, showing that there are different types of doctors, however no source to show that men work higher paying jobs. Con's defence of their 4th contention is very lacking. They state that women are qualified to do work and went to school for it? This doesn't answer the fact that if you can pay qualified women less than you can probably do the same to men, which is the point Pro was making. This contention is very shallow and holds no real weight. Con actually concedes in R2 that employers might actually be looking at the fact that women take time off to raise children during the hiring process, and they state that it's not sexism. However this doesn't mean anything, because the debate isn't about saying "the Gender Wage Gap is Sexist," it's only if it exists or not. Con states that a person working 80 hours a week will make more than the one working 50 hours, however they ignore Pro's sourced argument which compared men and women who all worked 40 hours per week.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
RFD 2/2

After reading through the rest of the debate, I feel like I can sum it up quickly enough, because the debate came down to one key argument. This was Pro's contention and source which stated that out of a group of women and men that worked 40 hours per week, women were paid less on average. Con's rebuttal to this completely misses the point. They ignore the key fact that when compared with the same hours a disparity in pay was shown, and instead looked in the sources to show that women work less hours than men. But again, this doesn't matter at all in regards to the contention, which is won by Pro because they've shown that when working the same hours, women earn less. The rest of the arguments are all useless compared to this one, because it's the only one that takes into account hourly wages.

To conclude, Pro was able to show with a source that when adjusted for the same hours worked, women earn less than men.
Posted by kkjnay 1 year ago
kkjnay
Thanks Midnight
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
I'll vote on this tonight.
Posted by Axonly 1 year ago
Axonly
Not interested in debating, but I want to point out that there is a clear Gender wage gap, but it isn't as simple as "Women get paid less", its far more complex. Pretending is doesn't exist is silly.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
misterman56kkjnayTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD IN COMMENTS