The Instigator
navi.dendi
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
joseph.vu
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Is there a god or deity that governs the universe? (against atheism)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 364 times Debate No: 83857
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
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navi.dendi

Pro

God is defined as the creator and ruler of the universe, therefore he is outside of space and time. Note that I am not trying to prove a specific God, but rather a God in general. I am going to try to prove that there is a deity that governs the universe, thereby refuting the idea of atheism. First off, atheists utilize negative apologetics such as "can God create a rock too big for Him to lift?" In address to the question, by saying that God can create a rock too big for Him to lift implies that he is bound by space and time. If a deity exists, then they would not be bound by space and time, therefore this is an illogical question to present. My argument goes as follows
1. The laws of logic exist
2. To speak of a low is to imply some sort of order, and to speak of order is to imply some sort of 'orderer'
3. The laws of logic have three possible sources/orderers: humanity, nature, and God
4. The laws of logic are abstract, invariable, and immaterial.
5. Thus the laws of logic are not arbitrated by humanity or nature.
_______________________________________________________________
6. Therefore, the laws of logic can only be arbitrated by God.
joseph.vu

Con

I will not use negative apologetics because frankly, I see it as not needed. We are not arguing about Donald Trump Here. I will prove that there is not a deity that governs the Universe as you asserted. First, I will ATTEMPT to disagree with the points you made, and some questions I really want to ask.

1. The Laws of Logic exist. Yes they do ! There is no doubt that there is Laws of Logic. If there was not, People would have sex with each other every single day, just joking.

2. Is your argument based on the assumption that God already exists ? Because from what I am reading ( My Glasses might be going bad ), you are saying that God exists because there is Logic and this is where I disagree...... Ready ? Start reading !

1. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines logic as "the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference." Logic will let you analyze an argument or a piece of reasoning, and work out whether it is likely to be correct or not. But Logic is not an absolute law that governs the Universe. For example, People thought the earth was flat. Because of the science of the time, it was considered Logical. Now with Modern Science, it's not logical. Logic is our expirinces, from what we learn. If I stick my hand in a fire and pull my hand out, it's because it's logical.....

2. The fact that the world is governed by laws of logic is exactly what eliminates god. since logic exists, god is not needed.

I suppose you assume that logic needs an intelligent initiator of some sort in order for it to exist ? Why? Logic dictate that adding quantity causes that quantity to increase. This would occur with or without God's existence and needs no DIvine intervention to be consistently true. Logic dictates that a system in equilibrium has a total of equal opposite forces and that the sum of all the forces in the system is 0. This is not contingent on god's presence either. The more explanations of phenomena that can be logically explained, the less God is needed.

God and Logic are indirectly proportionate. an increase in Logic causes a decrease in God.
Debate Round No. 1
navi.dendi

Pro

God is defined as the creator and ruler of the universe, therefore he is outside of space and time. Note that I am not trying to prove a specific God, but rather a God in general. I am going to try to prove that there is a deity that governs the universe, thereby refuting the idea of atheism. First off, atheists utilize negative apologetics such as "can God create a rock too big for Him to lift?" In address to the question, by saying that God can create a rock too big for Him to lift implies that he is bound by space and time. If a deity exists, then they would not be bound by space and time, therefore this is an illogical question to present. My argument goes as follows
1. The laws of logic exist
2. To speak of a low is to imply some sort of order, and to speak of order is to imply some sort of 'orderer'
3. The laws of logic have three possible sources/orderers: humanity, nature, and God
4. The laws of logic are abstract, invariable, and immaterial.
5. Thus the laws of logic are not arbitrated by humanity or nature.
_______________________________________________________________
6. Therefore, the laws of logic can only be arbitrated by God.

Round 2:
Response to point 1: To clarify, I am saying the Laws of Logic exist because a creator (God) put them in place.
I apologize as I didn't realize people wouldn't know which laws of logic I am referring to. First off there are three "Laws of Logic," they are the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of the excluded middle.

Law of Identity states: "each thing is the same with itself and different from another."

Law of non-contradiction states: "Something cannot be and not be at the same time in the same respect."

Law of the excluded middle states: "for any proposition, either that proposition is true, or its negation is true."

I will use the Law of Non-contradiction for my argument. It can be used as follows, the universe cannot be and not be at the same time and in the same respect. Do you find any fault in the Laws of Logic?

Also I pose the question, what is the source of these Laws of Logic? Going back to point 3. in my syllogism, which of these do you suppose is the source of these Laws? or pose another possible source if these do not fit your rationale.
joseph.vu

Con

The Problem I find with the Laws of Logic is that they are a description not a prescription. In other words, the laws are simply a description of things we know to be true. The universe does not conform to logical absolutes because someone thought them up and is holding reality to that standard. These absolutes exist purely to describe patterns that we have observed as true in reality. To understand the difference between a descriptive and prescriptive law, consider this example:

Gravity is a descriptive law. Isaac Newton didn"t create gravity. It existed before he identified it and would have continued existing regardless of whether he had ever given it a name. The laws of gravity are simply observations made by scientists that explain natural processes.The traffic speed limit is a prescriptive law. It was created and enforced by people, and it"s meaningless without such enforcement. If no one came up with a speeding limit or held people accountable for speeding, speed limits would cease to exist.

In the same way, the laws of logic are descriptive. No one made them up or wrote them in a handbook somewhere for them to exist. They were simply observed as always being true (rocks are always rocks because if a rock were anything else, it would cease to be a rock). Because the laws of logic are not prescriptive, they do not require the mind of a deity or any other mind to exist. Human minds can identify them and put them into words, but the phenomena these laws refer to would continue to exist regardless of whether a deity or anyone else thought about them.What this means is that these descriptions themselves are what is purely conceptual. But the laws they describe are not conceptual. What these laws refer to is the consistency of existence, which exists whether or not they"re being described or identified by a mind. A rock is always a rock because it exists in reality. If there were no mind to observe the rock, it would still be a rock. Minds are necessary only to describe that phenomenon, not to make it true.
Debate Round No. 2
navi.dendi

Pro

navi.dendi forfeited this round.
joseph.vu

Con

My Opponent has forfeited.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by navi.dendi 1 year ago
navi.dendi
Thank you for accepting my challenge. I am trying to practice my apologetics skills and also to maybe learn some incite from the opposing view.
Posted by joseph.vu 1 year ago
joseph.vu
I actually do believe in God..... I am just playing the devil's advocate.
Posted by SNP1 1 year ago
SNP1
You need to define "god"
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