The Instigator
mschechtel17
Pro (for)
The Contender
mr_6oorr
Con (against)

Is there a reason that exists where you would sit in protest to the national anthem?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/14/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 410 times Debate No: 95409
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

mschechtel17

Pro

Specifically, I am asking the Con if under any circumstance they would sit in protest during the National Anthem in the same way Colin Kaepernick did. I imagine a patriotic person, or someone that has a lot of pride for our country will accept this debate. I want you to seriously consider if under no circumstance you would denounce our National Anthem and flag.

In the first round tell me your reasons for why you would never sit during the National Anthem like Colin Kaepernick did.

No trolls
mr_6oorr

Con

I would never sit in protest during the National Anthem. I would never disrespect the flag either. I have pride in my country, and both of those actions are very disrespectful. If someone feels so strongly offended by a song or flag, they are free to leave the country at any time. Most of these people never would though. I feel that when someone does these things, it is misplaced anger. The country itself hasn't done anything to you.
Debate Round No. 1
mschechtel17

Pro

You say you would never sit in protest during the National Anthem because it is disrespectful to the flag and our country. I don't know you personally so I can't suggest an actual situation that might offend you but for argument sake lets say American government started limiting our freedom declaring at birth what job we could do. You don't get to decide what job this is but only can decide if you want to do this job or not and if you don't you will end up poor on the street. Now imagine that most Americans don't feel this fair but accept it as a part of social culture ingraining it in society. Your in the minority and you believe that participating in this widely accepted part of culture is very disrespectful to our country and spits on the values and beliefs that America was built upon, the values that our forefathers created and intended America to embody. People may listen to you speak against it but seem unwilling to take action. No matter how hard you try you can't seem to have a positive affect on people to try to change this part of culture that doesn't belong in America. You get to the point where you realize the America you once believed existed doesn't and your living in a shell of what made America truly great. You know if people just voiced their opinion more and felt more strongly about this part of culture we as citizens of America could destroy this part of culture and make America once again great as our forefathers intended.

To your point about leaving the Country... would you? Would you leave the country turning your back on a country that made you who you are and allow it to continue to exist as a country not allowed to truly be great because of this part of culture that is dragging America down? Or would you fight for the America you know can exist, one that truly allows all to be free, treated equally, and allow them to take their own path without being suppressed because of some sort of physical trait or where you were born? Lets say you want to fight for your country to make it once again great.

You don't know where to start or how to change peoples minds because they don't really care to talk about this piece of culture even though most also feel it shouldn't be allowed to exist. These people haven't yet realized how insulting this piece of culture really is to the idea of what America was meant to be. You feel it more strongly because you have a brilliant mind and your passion is to be a doctor so you can really help people instead of just entertaining them but you're forced to be a musician reduced only to entertainment unable to live your passion. You're grateful for the opportunity to make money and build a life for your family but you can't shake this feeling of oppression. You know others like you aren't allowed to fulfill their passion and have failed at their declared job. They could be successful in so many other areas but our culture doesn't allow them to be. You sympathize and feel for these people and you are willingly to do anything to fight for these people without a voice so they can live in a great America like you know can exist. You can't get the politicians to change their laws or views and when you talk to the public about this issue they just sort of shrug it off. They think you don't really care because you are a successful musician and most of the people that follow you also aren't that effected by this part of culture, but you know there are still a lot of people that are.

You decide you need to do something drastic you need to make a stand that will finally get people's attention and thinking about the change you know needs to happen. You realize that every time you stand for the National Anthem you are supporting all of what our country is, a lot of good things, but also this one terrible part of culture your determined to change. You realize that by standing for the Anthem your saying that you are ok with what America is right now, except your not. This part of culture needs to change and you just feel fake supporting all this country is when you don't agree with a huge part of it that degrades America.

Finally you realize how to fight for the an America that truly is great and your determined to make it happen. First you need to get the public's attention but in order to do this you need to shock them to shake them loose from their acceptance of this false America. You have a lot of fans and in your next show you sit during the National Anthem. People are angry at first and accuse you of not being patriotic, but actually its the opposite. Your so patriotic you refuse to continue to accept this false America and it might not be the best way but you sit during the Anthem to show your refusal to accept this false America. At first most people are still angry and can't understand why your doing this. But slowly more and more of your fans think about why your doing this and they remember that you voiced your opinion of this terrible part of culture that still thrives in America. They might not sit during the Anthem with you but they start making a conscious effort to destroy this part of culture they also know shouldn't exist. Finally after a long battle and hearing hate from so many people you see the change in culture that needed to happen and the America you believed could exist finally does and it is partly because of you. America still has some problems and some things you and other disagree about but it once again embodies the values that make it great. Finally you can stand again for the National Anthem with a renewed and far greater pride in your country.

I personally don't have a reason to sit during the Anthem, i haven't had an experience to do so. But it is in this way i could understand why another would do such a thing and in this way if I ever felt I was living in a false America I could see myself sitting for the Anthem in protest. And when i see someone else sitting for it I consider their reason, I may not have ever had the reason they do, but if their reason seems plausible how can I denounce it without ever feeling what they felt?
mr_6oorr

Con

What if the government forced jobs on us? What if the government forced music on us? What if a million different scenarios played out? That's is not a valid argument, but I will answer your question anyway. My answer is no, I would not sit in protest if the government forced jobs on us from birth. If our freedom became so eroded that the government could get away with forcing jobs on us from birth, I wouldn't be sitting in protest during a NBA game. I would be doing exactly what the founding fathers tell us to do in that situation. The Declaration of Independence says, "When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security". No I would not be sitting during the Anthem. I would be fighting this tyranny with the National Anthem playing in the background and the flag on my back, because that's what the Anthem represents. Fighting for your freedom. I see the Anthem and flag as symbols of freedom and liberty. If America was not free, these symbols wouldn't lose meaning, they would just lose association with this "false America".

You said, "imagine most Americans don't feel this is fair, but accept it as part of social culture". Just because something is part of culture or tradition, doesn't make it right, moral, or reasonable.

Would I leave the country? No, my entire side of the debate is in favor of the USA, our National Anthem, and flag. Think of America as a large ship. Imagine this ship has flown the flag and played the National Anthem every morning for hundreds of years, ever since the ship set sail. Obviously the "government" would take the role as captain. The captain of today does not represent past captains, especially not the original founding captains. It would make more sense to protest the captain, as opposed to the Anthem or the ship itself. I may not agree with all policies currently in place in this country, but it's impossible to make everyone happy. However this doesn't take away my loyalty to the Anthem or flag.

Telling me what I would do in a situation, is not even an argument. You repeatedly said, "You don't know where to start or how to change people's minds". I would do what I said above, because that is what the Anthem represents.

Having "the opportunity to make money and build a life for your family", doesn't sound very oppressive. There are other countries in the world that actually are oppressive, and I would have no problem protest their Anthems.

Colin Kaepernick's actions were not "drastic" and have not succeeded in sparking national debate about oppression. His actions were attention-seeking and misguided. The Anthem and the flag don't really have anything to do with Colin's point. What if your best friend didn't show up to your father's funeral, because they didn't have a good experience with their father? Doesn't make much sense, but that's akin to sitting during the Anthem because you didn't have a good experience living in the US.

Lastly, what exactly do you mean by "false America". Just because you don't agree with all aspects of the country or culture, that doesn't make it false. It is the way it is, and it is not "true" or "false" depending on your personal feelings.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by BackCommander 5 months ago
BackCommander
"If the Americans were aware of a tyrannical ruler there would be a revolution" No Snazzy, there almost certainly wouldn't be. People don't want to revolt, they want to be safe. We as a society have given away our rights time and time again simply because we were told that it was the price to pay for safety.

Those "ragheads" don't see us, they see our leaders, they see our guns, our tanks, our missiles. They have no idea who you are, or who I am. All they know of us is our armed oppression of their people, of course they don't like our country.

If we did revolt, another country coming to the aid of the rebels would be actively declaring war on the US. Realistically and strategically it would be more advantageous of them to wait until the US had used some of its resources fighting rebels to strike before anyone knew who hit them. A country aiding us because they believe in our fight is unlikely, but could happen. It however probably wouldn't come close to tipping the scales in a war with our military.
Posted by mschechtel17 5 months ago
mschechtel17
Small problem: There's a healthy percent of the populations that does feel like their under Tyranical Rule and maybe if you spent a little less time whistle blowing and a little more time trying to understand how they could possibly feel this way you might realize that maybe they have enough of a point to warrant harmless, further discussion.
Posted by mschechtel17 5 months ago
mschechtel17
And it's ignorant, arrogant people like you Snazzy that are so willing to let other people make your decisions for you that you don't even realize every recent war, certainly the ones in our time, were fought for the economic and political interest of America, not for freedom and justice for all like you here in bed time stories. Our soldiers haven't fought for our freedom and rights as American's for a long time, but it's not their fault because they are lied to the same way we are. Go ahead and ask all the veterans you know if they really felt like they were "fighting the good fight" or if instead they felt like they were being used. So many courageous veterans who put their life on the line for the average American realized that they were cheated and tricked into thinking this was actually the case.

I might be a person that " insist that it's alright to protest the flag during the national anthem when people die every day just so you can have the right to protest the flag" but I'm smart enough to realize that's not what those brave people were actually fighting for and what their death actually means which unfortunately has very un-American values.

But just remember, Its people like YOU , who stand during the Anthem in order to justify sitting back in ignorance the rest of the time ignoring the fact our military sends thousands of young confused men and women to their death just to pad the pockets of the rich and further the selfish political agenda of our 'wise' American leaders.
Posted by Snazzy 5 months ago
Snazzy
Of course the militia wouldn't stand a chance by themselves. Who's to say they wouldn't receive assistance from other countries like Canada or England? Actually, there are more people outside of the country than inside it that want to remove our rights. All those ragheads in the Middle East sure as hell don't want us to be able to have what we do. If the Americans were aware of a tyrannical ruler there would be a revolution, we're obviously not going to do anything if we don't know about it..
Posted by straightup.gong 5 months ago
straightup.gong
At school, I'm forced to stand for the pledge, but I never put my hand on my heart. I support choice so if you don't want to stand, then don't stand. It doesn't affect me or anyone else if someone sits. I personally don't want to stand, but I must so I do. I think this debate is based more so on opinion than fact.
Posted by BackCommander 5 months ago
BackCommander
@Snazzy, come on man, seriously. In this day and age a militia stands almost no chance against our military. Our war for independence was fought with a very small gap between our technology and the Brits technology, and we still barely won that. As a side not it's difficult to come to turns with, but people aren't dying everyday for our rights. We have more people within our borders trying to remove our rights than we do outside of them. "We aren't under tyrannical rule" how do you know that? Go watch a few documentaries on North Korea to gain some perspective on just how much a government can get away with.
Posted by Snazzy 5 months ago
Snazzy
Small problem: We aren't under tyrannical rule. If someone ever tries that, we have the right to maintain a militia for a reason.
Posted by Samcoder1 5 months ago
Samcoder1
Snazzy, it's just a flag for heavens sake man. One might denounce the flag, in the event of a tyrannical government. One only loves the flag if it represents a country you want to live in. As soon as the country stops being one you want to live in, I wouldn't be surprised if you denounced the flag.

Do you claim the Russian proletariat who suffered under communism, who starved, and were arrested, should have stood and sung the anthem of the red army?
Posted by Snazzy 5 months ago
Snazzy
You are pathetic. People like you insist that it's alright to protest the flag during the national anthem when people die every day just so you can have the right to protest the flag. I don't care if you protest the country, there are a lot of problems with the government but that doesn't mean you should disrespect the damn flag.
Posted by mschechtel17 5 months ago
mschechtel17
You must be pretty simple minded if you don't see the goal. You're pathetic.
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