The Instigator
specialrelativity101
Con (against)
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The Contender
Spatial1
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is there a supreme being?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/30/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 373 times Debate No: 75980
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

specialrelativity101

Con

Is it logical to believe in a supreme being? How did the universe begin with or without a supreme being? Is a god necessary for the universe, life, and everything to exist?
Spatial1

Pro

The question of whether it is logical or not to believe in supreme being(s) is a no-brainer, with the big bang theory needing some sort of extreme force to collide particles together. Using this piece of evidence, it is impossible that without supreme being(s), the world would have come into existence. Whether this being(s) is God, or just a supreme race of beings that live in an alternate dimension is immaterial. There is/are supreme being(s)

Note: In case of this round not meant to be debated on and just an acceptance of challenge, please state in the next round and I will not raise an argument for round 5.
Debate Round No. 1
specialrelativity101

Con

According to Stephen Hawking, "When people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them that the question itself makes no sense. Time didn"t exist before the big bang, so there is no time for god to make the universe in. It"s like asking directions to the edge of the earth; The Earth is a sphere; it doesn"t have an edge; so looking for it is a futile exercise. We are each free to believe what we want, and it"s my view that the simplest explanation is; there is no god. No one created our universe,and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization; There is probably no heaven, and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe, and for that I am extremely grateful."

The universe, its beginning, and its end do not require a deity to control them. Supreme beings are simply unnecessary. If you would, think about the gods and goddesses of greek and roman mythology. Now it is obviously called mythology but in those times, people actually believed that there were gods that governed every aspect of life. You see, their ignorance of nature and natural processes led them to create these supreme beings to be in control of these aspects of life such as the mysterious lightning and thunder that occasionally occurred. The had no idea that these lightning bolts were plasma radiating from the exosphere. So, they created this god named Zeus to be the god of lightning and thunder. This is exactly the same with every other god. People did not know what created us or where we come from so the create these gods which all created us in some different way.

My question is, why do you think a god is necessary?
Spatial1

Pro

How do we know that the big bang itself was the beginning of things, and not just a contraction in space time causes by these deities because the universe that they lived in was becoming uninhabitable? Trying to prove that the big bang was the start of everything is like trying to prove the Fermi Paradox is either true or false with the current technology- It is impossible to prove and disprove.

Another theory to consider is that these supreme beings come from a higher dimension, and do not actually exist in the 3 dimensions of length, width and height. If they can travel along these dimensions at will, could it not just be some incredibly technologically advanced human beings that are a)capable of time travel b) capable of creating a blast large enough to be called the big bang?

A question to consider is: Without some intervention, how did the big bang happen? Did it simply decide that it was time to explode?
Debate Round No. 2
specialrelativity101

Con

1. You don't understand. We scientists call the beginning the big bang. It's like a nickname for the beginning of the universe.

2. If these supreme beings came from a higher dimension, they can manipulate time at the fifth dimension, but that's about it. Being in a higher dimension does not mean they can violate the laws of matter, energy, and motion. Also, time in our universe, which is a closed system, did not exist before the big bang. Space-time did not exist. I think you're trying to use the multiverse theory to prove the existence of supreme beings. I will help you out by informing you that it does the opposite.

Question to consider:

1. In order to understand the Origin of the universe, we need to combine the General Theory of Relativity with quantum theory. The best way of doing so seems to be to use Feynman's idea of a sum over histories. Richard Feynman was a colorful character, who played the bongo drums in a strip joint in Pasadena, and was a brilliant physicist at the California Institute of Technology. He proposed that a system got from a state A, to a state B, by every possible path or history. Each path or history has a certain amplitude or intensity, and the probability of the system going from A- to B, is given by adding up the amplitudes for each path. There will be a history in which the moon is made of blue cheese, but the amplitude is low, which is bad news for mice.

The probability for a state of the universe at the present time is given by adding up the amplitudes for all the histories that end with that state. But how did the histories start? This is the Origin question in another guise. Does it require a Creator to decree how the universe began? Or is the initial state of the universe, determined by a law of science? In fact, this question would arise even if the histories of the universe went back to the infinite past. But it is more immediate if the universe began only 15 billion years ago. The problem of what happens at the beginning of time is a bit like the question of what happened at the edge of the world, when people thought the world was flat. Is the world a flat plate with the sea pouring over the edge? I have tested this experimentally. I have been round the world, and I have not fallen off. As we all know, the problem of what happens at the edge of the world was solved when people realized that the world was not a flat plate, but a curved surface. Time however, seemed to be different. It appeared to be separate from space, and to be like a model railway track. If it had a beginning, there would have to be someone to set the trains going. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity unified time and space as spacetime, but time was still different from space and was like a corridor, which either had a beginning and end, or went on forever. However, when one combines General Relativity with Quantum Theory, Jim Hartle realized that time can behave like another direction in space under extreme conditions. This means one can get rid of the problem of time having a beginning, in a similar way in which we got rid of the edge of the world. Suppose the beginning of the universe was like the South Pole of the earth, with degrees of latitude playing the role of time. The universe would start as a point at the South Pole. As one moves north, the circles of constant latitude, representing the size of the universe, would expand. To ask what happened before the beginning of the universe would become a meaningless question, because there is nothing south of the South Pole.

Time, as measured in degrees of latitude, would have a beginning at the South Pole, but the South Pole is much like any other point, at least so I have been told. I have been to Antarctica, but not to the South Pole. The same laws of Nature hold at the South Pole as in other places. This would remove the age-old objection to the universe having a beginning; that it would be a place where the normal laws broke down. The beginning of the universe would be governed by the laws of science. The picture Jim Hartle developed of the spontaneous quantum creation of the universe would be a bit like the formation of bubbles of steam in boiling water.

The idea is that the most probable histories of the universe would be like the surfaces of the bubbles. Many small bubbles would appear, and then disappear again. These would correspond to mini universes that would expand but would collapse again while still of microscopic size. They are possible alternative universes but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life. A few of the little bubbles, however, grow to a certain size at which they are safe from recollapse. They will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and will form the bubbles we see. They will correspond to universes that would start off expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is called inflation, like the way prices go up every year.

The world record for inflation was in Germany after the First World War. Prices rose by a factor of ten million in a period of 18 months. But that was nothing compared to inflation in the early universe. The universe expanded by a factor of million trillion trillion in a tiny fraction of a second. Unlike inflation in prices, inflation in the early universe was a very good thing. It produced a very large and uniform universe, just as we observe. However, it would not be completely uniform. In the sum over histories, histories that are very slightly irregular will have almost as high probabilities as the completely uniform and regular history. The theory therefore predicts that the early universe is likely to be slightly non-uniform. These irregularities would produce small variations in the intensity of the microwave background from different directions. The microwave background has been observed by the Map satellite, and was found to have exactly the kind of variations predicted. So we know we are on the right lines.

The irregularities in the early universe will mean that some regions will have slightly higher density than others. The gravitational attraction of the extra density will slow the expansion of the region, and can eventually cause the region to collapse to form galaxies and stars. So look well at the map of the microwave sky. It is the blue print for all the structure in the universe. We are the product of quantum fluctuations in the very early universe. God really does play dice.

We have made tremendous progress in cosmology in the last hundred years. The General Theory of Relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe shattered the old picture of an ever existing and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang. It also predicted that time would come to an end in black holes. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background and observations of black holes support these conclusions. This is a profound change in our picture of the universe and of reality itself. Although the General Theory of Relativity predicted that the universe must have come from a period of high curvature in the past, it could not predict how the universe would emerge from the big bang. Thus general relativity on its own cannot answer the central question in cosmology: Why is the universe the way it is? However, if general relativity is combined with quantum theory, it may be possible to predict how the universe would start. It would initially expand at an ever increasing rate.

During this so called inflationary period, the marriage of the two theories predicted that small fluctuations would develop and lead to the formation of galaxies, stars, and all the other structure in the universe. This is confirmed by observations of small non uniformities in the cosmic microwave background, with exactly the predicted properties. So it seems we are on our way to understanding the origin of the universe, though much more work will be needed. A new window on the very early universe will be opened when we can detect gravitational waves by accurately measuring the distances between space craft. Gravitational waves propagate freely to us from earliest times, unimpeded by any intervening material. By contrast, light is scattered many times by free electrons. The scattering goes on until the electrons freeze out, after 300,000 years.

My question for you:

Which particular supreme being do you believe created our universe?
Spatial1

Pro

Spatial1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
specialrelativity101

Con

specialrelativity101 forfeited this round.
Spatial1

Pro

Spatial1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
specialrelativity101

Con

It appears that my opponent has forfeited the debate.
Spatial1

Pro

Spatial1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by specialrelativity101 1 year ago
specialrelativity101
I'm sorry, I wasn't on for a while. Do you forfeit the debate?
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