The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ergodicsum
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Is there evidence for Adam and Eve?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
ergodicsum
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/24/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 829 times Debate No: 46606
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (3)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

Genesis 1:26-27 "26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Although there is no fossil evidence for Adam and Eve, genetic evidence has been discovered.

In 1950, another string of DNA was found outside of the Nucleus. This was very unusual since the rest of the DNA had 46 Chromosomes inside the Nucleus. This was labeled Mitochondrial Eve. It had the same double helix as other DNA. When an egg is fertilized inside the mother's womb, 23 Chromosomes go through the cell wall and into the Nucleus to join the 23 Chromosomes in the egg, creating 23 pairs. Outside of the Chromosomes, the rest of the egg is made by the Woman. This means that most of the Mitochondrial DNA is inherited by only the mother. Because of this, there is no genetic mixing. Mitochondrial DNA helps Scientist trace back human ancestors.

A study was done in the 1980's tracing back Mitochondrial DNA. 147 Women of different parts of the world and of different races were taken and traced their ancestors. The expectation was to find various families from different races, but in 1987, the results concluded there was only a single woman from which the women descended from. She was named "Mitochondrial Eve."

The same study was conducted on men and the results were that they descended from a common male ancestor named Y-Chromosomal Adam.

Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam were thought to have lived thousands of years apart, but a new study shows they lived in the same time. Although the overall population doesn't change, men usually have 1 son. Evolution predicts that for every given man, there is a high probability that his paternal life will end. All of his male descendants will have inherited a Y-Chromosome from other men. It's highly probable that all men except 1 had a Y-Chromosome minus and then went extinct. Modern descendants would then have the same Y-Chromosome from Y-Chromosomal Adam. Comparable studies later showed that Adam the common ancestor of the portion of the Y-Chromosome passes from father to son who lived 100,000 years ago. Carlos Bustamente, population geneticist at Standford California led the latest studies, showing polygamy could explain the age gap between Adam and Eve. The calculation of when Adam and Eve lived depends on the number of breeding adults in the population. Polygamy reduces the number of males by passing their Y-Chromosome, skewing the Estimate. He and his team sequenced the DNA of 69 males worldwide and uncovered 9,000 previously unknown DNA sequence variations. Using these variations, they found Adam and Eve lived between 120,000 and 156,000 ago. Comparable analysis of the same men's mitochondrial DNA suggest Eve living 99,000 and 148,000 years ago (1). Paolo Francalacci, population of geneticist came to a similar conclusion by studying the Y-Chromosomes of 1,200 from Sardinia. The Team identified 7,000 previously unknown Y-Chromosome variations and used it to create a molecular clock. The clock helped pinpoint key events in Sardinian history such as the rise of Neolithic populations and arrival of Africans from the Roman slave trade. It's suggested that Adam lived in 180,000-200,000 years ago like Eve's age (2). Paolo says that the difference between the 2 studies estimates that Adam's age could be due to different populations studied and how molecular clocks were calculated.

This is genetic evidence that the 2 common ancestors discovered by Scientists fit the Biblical description of Adam and Eve.

Sources:

1. Poznik, G. D. et al. Science 341, 562"565 (2013).

2. Francalacci, P. et al. Science 341, 565"569 (2013).
ergodicsum

Con

I first want to point out that Pro plagiarized in his argument. You see the place where he copied from here: http://www.nature.com.... For example you can find the following in the article in almost identical words:

"Although the overall population doesn't change, men usually have 1 son. Evolution predicts that for every given man, there is a high probability that his paternal life will end. All of his male descendants will have inherited a Y-Chromosome from other men. It's highly probable that all men except 1 had a Y-Chromosome minus and then went extinct"

This is paragraph 6 on Pro's argument and paragraph 2 on the original article. A very important thing to note is that the article that Pro plagiarized has the following statement in parenthesis at the end of paragraph 2:

"(The biblical reference is a bit of a misnomer because this Adam was by no means the only man alive at his time.)"

Even in article that Pro plagiarized, the author specifically wrote that this is not supporting the view that there was a "first couple" from which all humans came from. When the Y-Chromosomal Adam was alive, he wasn't the only man, he was also not the first man, he had a human father.

This is the key to the evidence that Pro thinks he is presenting. It is widely known in the scientific community that Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam are really a misnomer for something called "most-recent common ancestor of all humans alive on Earth today with respect to matrilineal descent" and "most-recent common ancestor of all humans alive on Earth today with respect to patrilineal descent" respectively.

Based on evolutionary theory all living things on earth are related to each other. So there is a most recent common ancestor between all trees and all humans, there is another one between all cats and all humans, another one between all apes and all humans, and another between all humans alive today.

When the most recent common ancestor between all humans alive today was alive, he wasn't the only man alive. There were other men. At that time he wasn't the "Y-Chromosomal Adam". As the lineages of all the other men alive at the time died off, his lineage was the only one that survived.

Pro's thinking that this proves the existence of Adam and Eve as described on the bible is based on a misunderstanding of what a most recent common ancestor is. He only focuses on the names "Adam" and "Eve".

You can more information about what this means here: http://www.talkorigins.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

First of all, the Bible does not say that there was a first man or woman, it is not strictly a Scientific textbook, it's intent is not to reconcile the events of Genesis with every Scientific theory and fact such as dinosaurs, the big bang or the history of human evolution. The account simply says that Adam was made by God, what Adam looked like or when he lived isn't mentioned. It's main goal is to describe how we as individuals relate to God.

Second of all, Genesis 3:20 says

" 20 And Adam called his wife"s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

The text does not say Eve was the mother of absolutely all humans in the world. The sources Con cited still confirm the Bible's accuracy as it says "Many other women lived with her, but they either did not leave descendants or did not leave descendants via the matrilineal line, who are still alive today."

This still proves the Biblical account to be accurate.
ergodicsum

Con

The most common belief in Christianity is that Adam and Eve refers to one first man and one first woman from which all humans came from. If Pro doesn't agree with this common belief then I ask what he means by "Adam and Eve."

If Pro had such a different concept of what Adam and Eve is then he should have stated it up front.

The bible describes how God created Adam first and brought animals to him to name, but for Adam :there was no help found." He then made Adam fall asleep and made Eve from one of his ribs. They ate from the tree of knowledge and were cast out of the garden. Is all of this metaphor? Are parts of it metaphor and other parts real?

I think we need a clarification of exactly what Pro means when he says "Adam and Eve" in order to determine to see if there is evidence.
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

The Bible does not describe Adam in much detail. For example, the Bible is silent on the length of time it took for God to create Adam and how old Adam was or how long he was in the garden. We don't really know whether the tree of knowledge and other things were metaphorical or literal, all that we can infer is that Adam and Eve were physical beings. All we have is genetic evidence of Adam and Eve which correlates to Gen. 3:20, which is all we need to know whether Adam and Eve existed. It is worth noting that the Genealogy of Adam goes down to Abraham, which then proceeds to the line of the Jewish people.

From this, we can infer that Mitochondrial Eve confirms the Biblical account.
ergodicsum

Con

When the theory of evolution came up we started to believe that we have a common ancestor between fish and humans, and between humans and gorillas. We also concluded that all races on earth had a common ancestor.

According to evolution, all human races had a common ancestor, according to the bible all races had a common ancestor. That is where the similarity stops. Mitochondial Eve is our calculation of when the earliest common ancestor probably lived., but we know that there existed other common ancestors before her, but the bible doesn't mention them.

A common ancestor also doesn't prove things like the garden or creating Eve from a rib.

All that Pro can say is that there is evidence of a common ancestor. He cannot claim that there is evidence for Adam and Eve especially when he doesn't know what part of the story is metaphorical or literal.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Yeh Dawn, they've probably seen how their ancestors were depicted in Jurassic Park and got ideas from that.
Posted by dawndawndawndawn 2 years ago
dawndawndawndawn
...walking feetsies.
I learned that ostri are a, real, danger for zookeepers
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Those vestigial feetsies that hang off their rib cage, that dangle like deflated long balloons, since all the muscles have wasted away to nothing after millions of years of non-use??
Or their feet that they actually use for walking on??
Velociraptors and T-Rex just used their hind legs to stand on small prey while they ripped them apart with their teeth, now beaks, just like we watch birds do today.
Their uppers legs were too short to be of any real use in catching and holding prey for eating.
If there was a God, it did a crappy job of designing those dinosaurs.
Oops, I made their upper limbs too short, oh, well, can't be bothered fixing my mistake, I'll just let those legs wither away in time.
Posted by dawndawndawndawn 2 years ago
dawndawndawndawn
Oh, Sagey, I have to type that ostriches slice up folks and lions, real-bad, with them feetsies
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Woman created from man's rib, now there started the extreme misogyny of the Bible.
Though man already had knowledge of life and death, they had already spent millions of years dodging predators and dinosaurs as little nocturnal insectivores looking something like shrews.
Though Velociraptors don't worry us now, because we are bigger than them as they also became smaller and now they have become known as Ostriches. They still have those useless front legs that they stopped using while they were velociraptors.
Posted by missmedic 2 years ago
missmedic
you can't use science to prove a superstitious fiction. People are not made from mud. Otherwise Adam could not get wet. Bla bla bla bla and then god drowned everyone.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Truth_seekerergodicsumTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Hard to pick this one, I disagree with Pro, but that is beside the point of the debate, the science is reasonably convincing though I had to go against Pro on the plagiarism cited by Con, Pro should have declared the excerpt as copied, Pro seemed to mean that Adam was the first of the hominid family with the fused chromosome pair, though we also mixed with Neanderthals and so humans are not from a single source of genetic material, as Neanderthals have a different lineage to homo sapiens, Con stopped providing arguments for Con's case and spent the rest of the debate questioning Pro's position. The standard of debate dropped completely after the first exchange of arguments.
Vote Placed by dawndawndawndawn 2 years ago
dawndawndawndawn
Truth_seekerergodicsumTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The existence of Adam and Eve is one of the most feeble Christian assertions. It has the very least possibility of ever being remotely true
Vote Placed by Josh_b 2 years ago
Josh_b
Truth_seekerergodicsumTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I find pro's plagiarism to be worthy of both a conduct point and resource points for con. both arguments were week and confusing.