The Instigator
edgi
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
TheHitchslap
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Is this USA massive deception by omission a federal FELONY? Civil LIABILITY?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
TheHitchslap
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2013 Category: Economics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 755 times Debate No: 34556
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

edgi

Pro

Stocks and homes are assets priced in U.S. dollars. Thus, their soundly shown price histories are inflation-adjusted ("real").
http://www.showrealhist.com...
But such are seldom seen, because: Well apparent therein are our nation's serial, massive mispricings. The news media do know how, but do so nearly never:
http://www.showrealhist.com...

I am no attorney, but this is my understanding: Federal felonies include fraud, which includes false advertising, which includes deception by omission.

PS Fed Chair warnings. http://www.showrealhist.com...
TheHitchslap

Con

First of all did they note real or nominal dollars?

Real:
Real dollars simply means that inflation is taken out of the equation; that all value remains the same to compare the past to now on a more fair basis, obviously nominal is the opposite, it allows you to see what has happened with inflation via nominal dollars

http://en.wikipedia.org...(economics)

My Argument is Simple:
Stockholders are enabled to see both of them, and furthemore, the fact that you even know about this in the first place tells me your not being decieved which means that you too along with the consumer know the difference between real value and nominal value. That means that this is NOT deception, you fully well know what is going on and ergo not a fellony. This along with home owners.

Also the graphs shown claim mispricings due to inflation which is a monetarist position; that inflation needs to be stopped hence the despite of nominal versus real dollars, that "real" is actual same value currency, but the markets internationally connected and fluxuations of money require us to use nominal right now, because the currency leaves the US, we need to make more, creating inflation, and thus prices goes up.


Done and DONE!

Vote for me! :D
Debate Round No. 1
edgi

Pro

This chart was in the WSJ 3-30-1999:
http://www.showrealhist.com...
Very instructive? (You bet!)
Something to watch with care? (You bet!)
Whereabouts? Nearly nowhere!
http://www.showrealhist.com...

This chart was in the NYT 8-27-2006:
http://www.nytimes.com...
Very instructive? (You bet!)
Something to watch with care? (You bet!)
Whereabouts? Nearly nowhere!
http://www.showrealhist.com...

I am certain that it is a far, far better thing for our nation if the people have their heads OUT of their fuming darknesses.
TheHitchslap

Con

My opponent is being absurdly cryptic, and isn't actually stating an argument, is he trying to say that somehow not having prices in "real" dollars a mispricing? He has done nothing to actually rebuttal my contention that he is mixing up real with nominal dollars, which does account for inflation and simply saying the public has been decieved. If that is the case, then it has not.

Real Dollars:
In Economics the rule is ceterus paribus, or "all things considered equal" as a unit of measurement to compare values during two different times adjusting for inflation (taking it out of the issue). Meaning if we want to compare the value of how much two presidents spend during their times in office (say Clinton versus Nixon) we would use Real dollars, because inflation would make it appear that each president spends more than his last which is mis-leading due to the value of the dollar be in more demand in later years.

Why Inflation?
A variety of reasons causes inflation: population increases would have an impact for example, because more money needs to be produced to compensate for more people who will enter the workforce. Money sent to toher countries due to trades, or even changes in currency, or demand of a given good increasing causing more production. Which is where nominal dollars comes in. It is used to show the values within their respective times in a given time period, which is why when we look to Nixons time goods were cheaper (because the value of the dollar at the time compaired to now was lower) in comparison to now. We need nominal dollars to account for the value of human activity over the years and without nominal dollars real dollars couldn't be used as a unit of measurement to keep values the same for the time periods in comparison. My opponent thus by trying to claim nominal dollars would have to use question begging to justify Real dollar pricings only. Real is in the past, nominal is present. Which is why we use nominal today, no prices were "misconceptions" and even if they were, if you agree to buy something and pay that price you were never disceived now were you?


Thank you, and until my opponent actually argues something instead of giving graphs and saying "watch this! and THIS! And This!" and until he rebuttals my argument, I shall simply extend my arguments from here-on-in until one is formulated

Thank you and vote for me!
Debate Round No. 2
edgi

Pro

edgi forfeited this round.
TheHitchslap

Con

arguments extended
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by edgi 3 years ago
edgi
RoyLatham,
This chart was in the WSJ 3-30-1999:
http://www.showrealhist.com...
Very instructive? (You bet!)
Something to watch with care? (You bet!)
Whereabouts? Nearly nowhere!
http://www.showrealhist.com...

This chart was in the NYT 8-27-2006:
http://www.nytimes.com...
Very instructive? (You bet!)
Something to watch with care? (You bet!)
Whereabouts? Nearly nowhere!
http://www.showrealhist.com...

I am certain that it is a far, far better thing for our nation if the people have their heads OUT of their fuming darknesses.
Posted by RoyLatham 3 years ago
RoyLatham
So what is the resolution? Is it "In the U.S., homes should be priced in inflation-adjusted dollars"? That doesn't make sense, because you cannot buy or sell a home in inflation-adjusted dollars, but only in current dollars.

Virtually everyone knows inflation exists, and the financial media endless provide graphs of inflation-corrected costs and prices. It seems to me that all you are saying that no one should be so foolish as to overlook inflation. Inflation in recent years has been modest compared to the end of the Carter era when interest rates climbed to 20% and more to compensate for inflation.

You also seem to thing that everyone should be warned when an economic bubble is coming. The problem is that no one knows when it's coming. Warren Buffett said he didn't predict the housing bubble. Many people worry about it, but no one knows. You cite Greenspan as giving a warning, so who is it who is guilty of a felony by not providing a warning?

the resolution is confused and ambiguous. Say what you think ought to be done and who is supposed to do it.
Posted by edgi 3 years ago
edgi
RoyLatham,
I refer to mispricing in real. A big rise followed by a big fall is a clear candidate for transient mispricing. And note this that I linked to:
http://www.showrealhist.com...

NOT adjusting for inflation 'hides' bubbles pretty well, which serves the financial sector by fooling the people. For example, RealDow, 9/1929-1/2000, nominal rose a factor 31., CPI-U rose a factor 9.8, real rose a factor 3.2
RealHomes, 1958-1998, nominal rose a factor 5.6, as did CPI-U, so NO change of RealHomes.
Posted by Pyromanen 3 years ago
Pyromanen
Stop posting this, please.
Posted by RoyLatham 3 years ago
RoyLatham
I cannot figure out what the claim of mispricing is. The challenge gives a reading assignment, and it seems we are supposed to read the material at the links and figure out what the argument is. Maybe I could figure out the idea if I worked at it long enough, but a debate is not supposed to require solving a puzzle.

Is the claim that it is misrepresentation to price things in current dollars rather than inflation corrected dollars? Or that the inflation correction is wrong? Or that prices should be compared to trends rather than recent actuals? Or something else?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 3 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
edgiTheHitchslapTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con basically nailed it, when he opened R2 with "My opponent is being absurdly cryptic, and isn't actually stating an argument..." The fact that he F.F. the next round, pretty much sealed the coffin.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
edgiTheHitchslapTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Presentation was the key problem for pro. His case was not made clear within the argument, thus causing con's statement of "My opponent is being absurdly cryptic, and isn't actually stating an argument," which I agree with. However sources favor pro, as much as they would have been further improved by using more than one website (con could have improved his to tie sources, by using something better than wiki, such as one of wiki's sources).
Vote Placed by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
edgiTheHitchslapTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro got hitch slapped!
Vote Placed by MassiveDump 3 years ago
MassiveDump
edgiTheHitchslapTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF