The Instigator
ArtMikullovci
Con (against)
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The Contender
Rubikx
Pro (for)
Tied
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Is time real ?

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/3/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,157 times Debate No: 64540
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

ArtMikullovci

Con

Time is a creation of humans, but it is not real.
The reason why time is not real is because if it was real it would be the same amount of time for each of us, we would not live the same amount of time differently.
How differently? Well, two men, 1 hour and two different rooms.
One of them is in a room with his girl-friend whom he loves.
And the other one is in a room with his thoughts, mostly depressive.
After 1 hour has passed we will ask the both men about the time, and the first one will answer that there has passed only "over 20 minutes or 30 minutes", and the second one might answer that there passed a "few hours or atleast 1 hour and a half"...
So how can the same amount of time be different to each of us? Because it is a creation of ours and it is related to our feelings and our brain, we can't see it, we can't touch it... all we can do is feel "The time".
Rubikx

Pro

All right... thank you for changing the time. Also, welcome to DDO and to your first debate.

I will be debating that time is in-fact a real thing.
I will begin by pointing out a fundamental flaw in your argument. "Because it is a creation of ours and it is related to our feelings and our brain, we can't see it, we can't touch it... all we can do is feel "The time"." The problem with this statement is that our brains are not very accurate clocks. We estimate how long a period of time is but we have no real idea. So when two different people say that they have experienced two different amounts of time when in reality the both experienced the same amount of time does not in any way prove that time is different for each of us. They both experienced the same amount of time, in this case 1 hour. The reason they claim that their times where different is because they are guessing based off of very rough estimations. Humans are simply bad clocks, however time is very real.

I would also like to point out a second flaw in your argument. "So how can the same amount of time be different to each of us?". Now I may be misinterpreting this statement, so please correct me if I am wrong. However, this sentence seems to imply that time cannot be different for each of us. This is not true. As proven by Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and several others, time can actually be manipulated and therefore be different from person to person. Einsteins equations show that the faster to the speed of light you get the slower you perceive time. This is most clearly demonstrated in modern satellites. Satellites orbiting earth must have their clocks slightly changed in order to keep in time with our clocks on earth. This is because they are moving much faster. I will not go into the specifics of how this works as it is extremely complicated and I don't fully grasp it as such. However, it is quite clear that time is a thing that is independent of human perception and is very real.
Debate Round No. 1
ArtMikullovci

Con

Indeed you did misunderstand my statement "how can the same amount of time be different to each of us", i was being sarcastic. The same amount of time indeed is different to each of us, as einstein has proven the relativity, it proves us that time if not the same to any of us.
If time is not same to each of us, and as I support your statement that einstein has proven that it is not, then how can time be real? If we would live forever there would be no term as "time". Why? Because we measure time with the moment of our death, so if death is the reason of measuring the time then there is "no time". How so? Death is just a mistery what comes afterwards is unknown, so it simply shows us there might be never such a thing as "definite time", if there is a "definite time" for all of us then when does it end? Does the time end when we die? If so, humans die everyday, why time continues? Such a thing that is existent only with your existence, how can it be real? Simply, what is your creation lives with you, and ends with you, what we have created cannot lead us, it is an illusion we have created and we live believing it exist so we can make our life easier. Time is not real!
Rubikx

Pro

Ok, thank you for clearing that up. I'm glad we can both agree on the relativity of time.

Now I think the key to this debate is that there is more then one type of time. The time you are talking about is personal time, or what some would call your "body clock". In other words it is how long a person lives for. This is totally independent of what some would call universal time, or the time that is experienced by everything in the universe. The best way I can think of to explain this is by example. If you have two trees and you want to measure the distance, you may use a measuring tape and measure the amount of distance in feet from tree A to tree B, lets say 20 feet. If one of those trees fell down then the specific distance between them (20 feet) would no longer exist, but that doesn't mean all distances everywhere no longer exist. It is the same with time. When someone dies their specific timeline ends and their life is over, but that doesn't mean time itself is over. Just that one specific part of it has ended. Time is totally independent of humanity. Life doesn't need to exist in order for their to be time. The only part of time that is not real are clocks and calendars. These do not actually measure time, clocks display the results of mechanical motion, and calendars are a easy way of tracking our orbit around the sun. However, this does not mean that time is not real, we made up a way of measuring time. We did not invent time, time is independent of humans and is real.
Debate Round No. 2
ArtMikullovci

Con

First of all I am sorry for my grammar on the last round, I was typing from my phone and made some phone-mistakes. :)

I will begin my pointing out your argument "The key to this debate is that there is more than one type of time", there is no such a thing as "type of time", there is a "time" that you believe it exists and it has no type or any other form.
I agree with your example of measuring the time, it is very true. If you measure the time of course there is a time which you have created, unfortunately it isn't true that humans did not invent the time. We invented time.

How did we invent time?
Therefore, we both know the theory of "big bang" which created the earth and the galaxy we live in. But "big bang" did not immediately create humans, earth evolved which caused our creation. Now if there was an existence of life before us, earth should have aged, but earth doesn't get old it evolves. Time has nothing to do with evolution, people evolve as-well the only reason people measure time, and invented time and believe there is a time is because their organism has "needs" and it evolves. The evolution of organism is not because of time, it is because of the "needs it has" and the environmental adoption an organism has. Those needs should be fulfilled in order to live. There is not yet known a human being that has lived more than a century. Why? Because of the environmental adoption of organism, and the "miss-needs" of our organism.
Everything that is known to exist, even the words we are writing, even the "needs of organism" are an invention of human beings, not necessarily "proper needs of organism". We assume what is healthy for organism, but as we know each beings organism is way different from each beings organism.
So, the evolution is not the answer of the existence of time. Things evolve because of their "needs" and their "environmental adoption" not because of time.

Quoting your argument "Time is independent of humans and is real".

Time cannot be independent of humans, time did not exist before humans, it is known to exist even later. If time is independent of humans than, "why earth doesn't get old, and die one day". Well, destruction doesn't count as death, because it is an artificial thing, but death is very natural. Earth indeed evolves, repeating the same actions for more than millions of years, when does earth die? It doesn't, earth as galaxy and other planets are known to be immortal for the moment, unless we will destroy "earth". Destruction is the answer to earths "death", but it has a cause, and it absolutely has nothing to do with "time".
Humans are known to be lived for more than 300.000 years ago, and back then there was no time. But how there was no time, time exist even then. Did time exist even then? Of course it didn't, because humans 300.000 years ago, didn't die naturally so there was no such a thing as "time" to them. Most of them had no idea about their "final hour" which also is known to be our natural "death", and therefore time didn't exist. But as time passed, humans began to adopt and evolve as-well but an evolution of their intellect. They started using their brains, which helped them to survive, and survivors witnessed the natural death of others, so now they knew there was no way of surviving here. My point is that since there is no way of surviving, and being immortal there was a need to create a "timeline". Timeline is known to be finite, right? So, actually what "time" actually is a creation of human beings so they could measure their moment of death, otherwise they could never catch-up with time.
There is no other type of time, it is only an invention of humans (known as a specie that can use their brains), which used their brains to invent something that would be way more helpful to catch-up with time.
Everything that humans created, that can be touched is known to be real, but what cannot be touched and has been created because of needs is doubtful. Even god exists in our imagination (a being, never known to be seemed or touches), does it make it real, just because of our belief, indeed it doesn't.
My argument is what is known to be a creation of yours, cannot be real unless you can touch it, feel it or use it. None of those happen with time. Time is not real, it is just a creation of humans and it ends when human beings end, other species are not capable to name "time", or even to feel it. Because they use their instincts to live, they simply fulfill their needs.

Obviously, time is not real. Thank you, I am looking forward to your reply.
Rubikx

Pro

I am rather confused by this statement ", unfortunately it isn't true that humans did not invent the time. We invented time.", I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.

Once again I have to disagree with you, "We invented time.". Humans invented a way to accurately measure time, but we did not create time. I would like to provide another analogy to explain why this is true. Humans invented mathematics, we invented numbers and how these numbers relate to one another. However, we based these mathematics off of patterns we saw in nature. For example the Fibonacci sequence (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34). This is a pattern found in nature, we did not invent the pattern, we simply invented a way of measuring it. The same is true for time, we invented clocks and calendars based off of patterns we see in nature. However, we did not invent the patterns. Time existed before humanity and it will continue to exist long after we are all dead.

I have to disagree with you again on another statement you made, " cannot be real unless you can touch it, feel it or use it". This is not true. You cannot touch, feel, use, smell or taste gravity and yet it is clearly real. Just because we cannot directly observe time doesn't mean it isn't real. We can measure time, just as we can measure gravity. The ability to physical hold or see an object does not decide whether or not it actually exists.

In your previous argument you said, "Now if there was an existence of life before us, earth should have aged, but earth doesn't get old it evolves". This is totally wrong. The earth does not need an observer of time to exist in order for it to age. We know this because we can date the earth. We know the earth existed and changed long before life ever existed.

Time has everything to do with evolution. One of the fundamental parts of evolution is that it took millions of years in order for life to become what it is now. I've said this before and I'll say it again, time does not need life to exist. In your previous argument you said, "Humans are known to be lived for more than 300.000 years ago, and back then there was no time". According to your argument time only exists because we say it exists. However, you also say that life evolves without time. So if every person on the planet stopped dying would this mean time no longer exists? Of coarse not time is not a human invention. If time was not real then nothing would ever change. The entire universe would just be a massive 3D photo as nothing could move. Time does not measure human life.

To use the example of the two trees, this would be like saying that we invented the idea of distances and feet and that the two trees would be in exactly the same place if we didn't say that they where 20 feet apart. Your logic on time does not make any sense simply looking out at the universe and even earth can easily demonstrate that time is very real and does not need humans to say that it is there in order for it to exist. Thank you and please provide some sort of evidence to demonstrate how time requires human life to exist.
Debate Round No. 3
ArtMikullovci

Con

My statement "it isn't true that humans did not invent time. We invented time", means us (humans) invented the time, obviously.


Your statement "Time existed before humanity and it will continue to exist long after we are all dead", I dont see any-kind of arguement that supports your statement, so your argument doesn't stand. I have explained why Time doesn't exist if humanity doesn't exist, so I would like to see your argument for this statement, it is very empty with-out an argument.
I will continue by pointing out your argument "You cannot touch,feel,use smell or taste gravity and yet it is clearly real.Just because we cannot directly observe time doesn't mean it isn't real. We can measure time, as we can measure gravity", if you are comparing the gravity to time, since both cannot be seen, be touched or used, I should explain you why they are way different and cannot be compared. The reason we know gravity is real is because as soon as we get out-side the earth, we see that gravity exists only on earth, it is well related to human beings also. With-out gravity there would be no oxygen, and no life for human beings and any-beings, so you cannot compare these two, your argument is invalid.

In my previous argument "If there was an existence of life before us, earth should have aged, but earth doesn't get old, it evolves", I clearly explain earth evovles. Your statement "we know the earth existed and changed long before life ever existed" is just supporting my argument. Because Earth doesn't age, but it evovles and I have explained it on my previous text.

I also have to point your next argument "So if every person on the planet stopped dying would this mean time no longer exists? Of coarse not time is not a human invention.If time was not real then nothing would ever change", If every person was immortal, indeed time wouldn't exist. You should not mix-up the time with the evolution, evolution is the reason things change, not time. Time to us is "The length of an unknown period", the reason you mix-up time with evolution is because you believe time exists, but since time doesn't exist, they have nothing to do with each-other.

Now I have to explain what I mean by my theory that "Time doesn't exist". Time is an invention of humanity, and it will continue to exist as a measure of our existence, so we can register the period of human existence. If humanity will end in some-day, then time is meaning-less. This is the simpliest way to explain you why time is an invention of ours, and why it ends with us, with-out humanity time doesn't exist.




Your statement "Your logic on time does not make any-sense simply looking out at the universe and even earth can easily demonstrate that time is very real and does not need humans", is invalid.
By your logic, Universe and Earth explain everything and is enough as a reason for time to exist. If so, then why Earth is the only planet known to have living beings in it, and the whole universe is related to earth. Oxygen, water, fire and everything that earth possess cannot be find in any-other planet, and do u know why? Because it all related to humanity, Earth is the planet where we were meant to exist, and that is why the each planet on universe, satelite, orbit are related to Earth, so we could exist. That is why time will exist only with our existence, because this whole universe is about us, we are not capable to understand it and we wont be for a long time, but unless we find another being on another planet,so it is all for us.
Oxygen existed way before humanity, didnt it? Of course it did, but it is obviously for us, the evolution of earth happened for a reason and the reason is the creation of a new life "humanity". According to you Oxygen is not related to humanity, because it existed way before us, even tho it existed way before us the reason of Oxygen's existence is the "new life", so if we all die one day even Oxygen becomes meaning-less, but only for earth oxygen has yet a meaning because it gives the earth another chance of "another life" and because plants continue their life on earth.
Rubikx

Pro

Once again, your statement doesn't make any sense, "My statement "it isn't true that humans did not invent time. We invented time", means us (humans) invented the time, obviously. ". You're saying we did not invent time we invented time. This is totally contradictory please explain what you mean.

The reason we know time existed before humans is because we can literally look back in time. As i'm sure you know, stars are incredibly far away. Therefore it can take hundreds to thousands of years for their light to reach us. In fact the farthest know star is roughly 13 billion light years away (GRB 090423). We can look across the universe and see it as it was millions to billions of years before humans ever walked the earth. If time required humans to exist in order for it to be real then the light from those stars would not have reached us yet.

I am again confused by one of your statements, "The reason we know gravity is real is because as soon as we get out-side the earth, we see that gravity exists only on earth". This is a ridiculous statement. Gravity exists everywhere in the universe, not just on earth. If gravity only exists on earth then how do you explain our orbit around the sun, or other planets orbiting the sun, or the solar system moving around the galaxy. Gravity and time are both very real, the both can be observed and measured, and they are both independent of humans. So yes i can compare gravity and time, and yes my argument is valid.

The earth ages because of time. Everything ages because of time. If there was no time nothing would ever change. We would be stuck permanently never ever changing.

Another statement of yours that makes no logical sense, "If every person was immortal, indeed time wouldn't exist. You should not mix-up the time with the evolution, evolution is the reason things change, not time". Evolution requires time in order for it to exist. One of the main parts of evolution is that it took MILLIONS TO BILLIONS OF YEARS for life to evolve. Thats way before humans existed. Life and the earth both aged and changed because time is real.

After going through the debate I've come to the conclusion that no matter how much evidence and logic I provide for you, you are simply going to ignore the fact that evolution and time are two completely different things. Evolution is caused by time. Evolution is not independent of time. Time is independent of humans. Your argument that the only reason that time, gravity and life exists because of humans is completely farcical, and has absolutely nothing to support. Please show me some evidence to show that time did not exist before humans began dying natural deaths.

Another thing, before I close. You have said that everything evolves, and that evolution is real. And yet you also say that the entire universe revolves around the human race. Why is this? Did the universe just decide to place humans at the centre of its attention and create laws of physics only available on earth solely for the purpose of keeping us alive? Time is real and is independent of humans, it is a force of nature just as real and relevant as gravity or any other fundamental force of the universe. And just like any other force of the universe it can be found everywhere both before and after humans ever walked the earth.
Debate Round No. 4
ArtMikullovci

Con

If you cant read, you should not blame my statement for your misunderstandings "it isn't true that humans did not invent time. We invented time", read it and you will under stand it. I am saying it ain't true that we did not invent time, we invented time. Simple as that.

I am going to explain things as short as possible. My statement about gravity was ridiculous, because once again you need more explanation. You feel the density of gravity and that explains the existence of gravity, as soon as you get out of earth. This is what I meant, we all know gravity is everywhere but my point was that you cannot compare Time to Gravity. Because you can feel gravity.

We don't look back in time, we pretend what we see is what happened back in time. We suppose universe is existing now for almost 30 billion of years, but we are just assuming. Nothing is proven yet, our brain is not that advanced to understand the 13 billion light years away. you keep assuming we can look back in time. If time was real, you couldn't look back in time. It is not time what is allowing us to assume when universe was created, it is quantum physics, which is related to space and time. If time is so real, why it is so relative? A day on jupiter is 9.9 hours, so does that mean that jupiter is the future? Since a day on earth is 24 hours, and on jupiter 9.9 hours it means that while we live a day, jupiter passes over 2 and a half days, so it explains jupiter is way further than us with time. Time is as i named it at my previous text "The length of an unknown period".

Your statement "earth ages because of time, everything ages because of time. If there was no time nothing would ever change. We would be stuck permanently never ever changing." Earth doesn't age, nothing else but humans age, things evolve. Things evolve, because things have needs and their reasons to evolve. Humans are the ones who count how old the earth is, but earth doesn't age. Nothing else in this whole galaxy ages but us, humans. If u haven't noticed yet we are stuck on a permanently evolving universe.

I haven't been ignoring any of your arguments, actually I have been explaining and answering to each of them. You are asking evidence for something that has not been proven, you are speculating that time exists, same as I am speculating that time doesn't exist. Can you prove me the opposite? No, you can't find evidence for that.
Time is what you consider to see the "literally back in time", when it is on space. Space evolves it doesn't age, everything on space has been on a constant expending, it is not because of time it is because they evolve, sun constantly is getting bigger and warmer, that is an evolution of sun.

Massive exploding stars, named "super novas" are the reason of life's existence. Another evolution on universe that happened millions of years ago and caused the life. Time as I said before is "The length of an unknown period", so yes you can look back in time because it is an unknown period. Time is the answer to quantum physics, but it yet has nothing to do with evolution, because in our world the 3rd-one time doesn't exist. Humans created time to measure their life, and to measure the existence of humanity. Time before humans invented it, was just found in space in a constant evolution from place to place. Time is the reason we can solve the past and the future, but the "imaginary time" which is existent only in space and has nothing to do with evolution. Once again the time we have created is non-existent, the time on space is yet unknown and has no explanations. I really want to see what are your thoughts on time now, If you didn't understand what I have been trying to say for the last 5 rounds, I cannot help it anymore. Time doesn't exist, it is our invention (creation). What is unknown, is yet to be solved.

Thank you very much! Explain me more.
Rubikx

Pro

The purpose of comparing gravity and time was not because they are same, the purpose was because you cannot see, feel or smell time. And yet the both can be observed and are both real. It was not because the are the same thing.

We know we can look back in time because we know the speed of light and we know how far away an object is. Therefore we can determine how old the light is by the time it reaches us. So we can look back in time. A day on jupiter, or indeed on any other planet, is totally irrelevant of time. As a said previously we invented clocks and calendars off of patterns we saw in nature, these man made objects do not literally measure time, they are simply a way to keep track of the movements of celestial bodies. So just because a day on jupiter is 9.9 hours this does not mean that time is different, it simply mean that the jupiter calendar is much different then the earth calendar. Time is not actually changing.

Ok, looking back over the debate I think we are just going to have to agree that we have different definitions for the same thing. What you call evolution I call time and what you call time I call a calendar. We are talking about the same things, just by different names. Whereas I say time is what causes the universe to change, you say evolution is the cause. Where I say a calendar is what we use to measure our lives and our orbit around the earth, you say its time. Where I say we invented the calendar you say we invented time and whereas I say time is independent of humans you say its evolution. In essence we are agreeing on the topic but disagreeing on what we are calling it. Unfortunately this makes the whole debate rather pointless. Either way thank you for the debate, it was quite fun. Good luck on all further debates.
- Rubikx
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Rubikx 2 years ago
Rubikx
No its not that I conceded the debate because I realized I lost. I realized we were arguing the same thing just calling it different names. we both had the same logic and argument because we were both arguing the same thing.
Posted by hdushku 2 years ago
hdushku
Art has more convincing arguments, and has proven that he is pretty good informated and has extraordinary sense of logic. Rubick has accepted that he lost the debate by trying to equalize their arguments with Art.
Posted by ArtMikullovci 2 years ago
ArtMikullovci
If someone can look the debate, analyse the debate and vote.

Thank you to who-ever takes the time to.
Posted by tyleremery2383 2 years ago
tyleremery2383
Time is only a measure of changes undergone by matter. Matter grows, shrinks, moves, ages, decays, etc., but if there was no matter there would be no way to judge time. Before the Big Bang (or whatever your personal beliefs are), there was no concept of "before," as there was no matter and therefore no time.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Both men lived in the same amount of time. One just used it better. Sitting around being depressed is stupid. Get up and go do something.And the time will seem quicker, but is not. We all have 24 hours a day. How we use our time is what is different.And individually it is always up to us.
Posted by Avery_salak 2 years ago
Avery_salak
Time is very real. Although it is just a perception of how we can keep track its like asking if numbers are real.. for example ; time did not exists before the 'big bang' theory... its simply like going to the very tip of the north pole and still trying to go north. There is no more... same with time.. like north... is only crested the farther we move from it.
Posted by missmedic 2 years ago
missmedic
"Satellites orbiting earth" are you suggesting that time flies when in space?
rhetorical question LOL
Posted by missmedic 2 years ago
missmedic
what do you care, apparently there is no time.
you have to admit it's ironic that he put a time limit.
LOL
Posted by Rubikx 2 years ago
Rubikx
I would accept this debate but only 1 hour to post your argument?? if it was at least 24 hours i would accept but 1 hour is to short. Good luck either way, you'll need it.
No votes have been placed for this debate.