Is westrn dominance comming to an end?
Debate Rounds (3)
Not The West - Everywhere else.
1) During the Dark Ages China was occupied by the Mongol Empire, just some clarification
2) You seem to be basing your entire argument on the rise of China over recent years. But if you look at other places in the world not in the west I do not see any signs of "dominance"
In south Eastern Asia many countries such as Cambodia and Thailand are still very underdeveloped economic wise, Vietnam and Laos are still under communist regimes, and Myanmar is run by a dictatorial regime where democratic protests often erupt in gunfire, and if you look off shore Indonesia and the Philippines are havens for Islam extremists and even modern pirates
Look slightly west and You will find India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. India and Bangladesh are terribly over populated and these three countries have fought many wars with each other since their independence 60 years ago, so they have been spending billions on military while overpopulation still leaves the nations in grinding poverty where a great number of people live on a salary of under $1 a day. No signs of superiority here....
Look all the way to the North and you find Russia, a former superpower that is still in its dissolved state that is trying to simply keep track of their nuclear stockpiles. Russia is a shadow of what they once were and is not superior to the West.
In the Middle East You have two war torn nations under US (western) occupation, Iran is run by a psychotic dictator, Saudi Arabia is doing well but in terms of human rights is still medieval (women still cant even drive legally), and all of these nations have been almost constantly at war with Israel, a tiny nation that has beaten back all of these nation's invasions because of US (western) influence
Cross the Panama Canal and you will find Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Sudan. Sudan split into two nations this year and the three other nations have gone through complete government revolutions, one of which started a Civil War. Go south and you find the countries of Sub-Sahara Africa, the poorest and most under-developed places in the world. Famines grip the region, income inequality is often high, democratic elections are tampered with so that presidents can retain power, a revolution or military coup happens somewhere almost once a year, and some of the largest genocides in history have taken place in Rwanda and Sudan, and they are STILL going on. If you also consider the economies of these nations, they often sit entirely on exportation of natural resources which in some cases have lead to the creation of "blood diamonds", or diamonds that are mined by poor workers and then sold to fund insurgent regimes.... No real dominance over the west. Africa also has the largest birthrate of any continent which means that the continent is only going to grow more and more over-populated which will only cause more problems in the near and distant future
What about in Eastern Europe? Poland is doing ok these days but other nations, like Yugoslavia, have dissolved into multiple states, many others were created from the dissolve of Russia and are struggling to become more advanced, and Greece is a joke whose over-spending has become a pun in the rest of Europe. Belarus meanwhile is still run by an oppressive dictator and the Serbian genocide is a painful reminder of just how barbaric some of these eastern nations are
South America, Brazil is becoming a world power but they are still in the process of becoming one, they do not dominate over western nations who still remain dominant over them. If you look at the surrounding countries you will find an abundance of illegal drug trade, Eric Chavez is the psychotic ruler of Venezuela, and many countries are struggling to bring their economies into the 20th, yes 20th not 21st, century.
Latin America is host to a series of small nations and Mexico, which we all know are going through quite an upheaval since drug cartels have basically started a war against Mexico and the violence is spilling over into other nations. Many of the countries are so small they could never potentially triumph the economies of the west, and the one that is large enough (Mexico) is undergoing cartel wars and many of their citizens still want to come here into the US...... no indication they are dominant over the west.
Now lets look at the one place I left out, Eastern Asia. North Korea is one of the greatest threats to world peace where it spends an obscene amount of money on its military while poverty still strikes the country. The country is so poor industrial wise that if you look at a picture of the country at night it is completely dark because electricity has to be conserved, so the government has to kill the power.... South Korea meanwhile is a rising economic power but with such a hostile nation to its north many question if they could withstand an invasion. Japan was actually the China of the 80's with many people saying that their economy could one day become number 1, Now they are barely clinging to number 3 and they are still rebuilding after a horrific earthquake tsunami nuclear reactor meltdown almost crippled the nation entirely. Current efforts to rebuild would not have been possible of western nations had not provided some kind of aid. Now on to the big behemoth, China. China is becoming very industrialized, but they are undergoing urbanization so fast that many problems that other urbanized countries have to deal with are striking China with a bang. Access to clean water, an aging military, lack of funding in education, Pollution from the nation in CO2 now triumphs that of the US, Transportation funding has been rocketing as much of China's billion people are investing in cars, democratic protests are still put down, and thats just to name a few. You may also want to note the disease problem in China, which has been a breeder of diseases that had the potential to wipe out entire populations, diseases such as H1N1, bird flu, and SARS are the biggest ones to come from China.
China may be on the rise, but they have numerous urban problems that could stall further economic growth and until China can address these problems, the rest of the world will have to make progress for western dominance to come to an end. From the current state of many of these regions and the lack of economic progress they are making I do not believe that Western Dominance is coming to an end
In the Rest some of the countries are dependent on the West, like South Korea, and Japan need the US for military support, China needs to sell their goods somewhere. It would be difficult to make the transition, but they would be able to continue growing. The United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and Brazil have all gotten rich off the west with there oil, and now have funds do open new doors, like Brazil using sugar ethanol do power their cars. The Rest will most likely make the next scientific breakthrough, because they still fund scientists, because they still have the funds.
I agree with the Rest being more susceptible to disasters, but natural disasters only need money to fix, and China has proved they are capable of quarantining themselves effectively, and if it turns into a pandemic they have the manpower to replace he dead and sick.
I don't think most African countries will be able to keep up with the East because of how hard Western colonization hit them. There is too much internal conflict for them to start with the rest, but maybe with some help they will be able to enter late in the game like South Africa, or Israel in the the West.
Right now we are seeing a turn around in the Arab world. The people are overthrowing their backward dictators and are adopting more democratic policies, but not necessarily western democracy, or western economic policies. I think the Arab world will find their own preference for government, historically they have had dictators, recently and in their golden age, maybe they will go back to that or maybe find a new way.
North Korea and Iran either open their doors or get left behind. The Rest will start a new Epoch and maybe the one after that, and maybe the one after that; Europe ruled from the Renaissance to the Digital ages, maybe the rest could manage to rule that long as well.
How has the west been declining since 1990? in 1990 The US had just won the cold war and Asian markets were experiencing an immense financial setback while the West prospered. Even after the September 11th attacks the west showed no signs of falling behind the rest of the world, and that remained true up until the recession struck in 2008. That was a setback for the world but it really hit the western countries so if you want to argue that the West is in decline start at 2008, not 1988.
You also claim that there is no feasible thing that can be done to end the decline of the west because of the recession, but the Great Depression in the 1920's was far far worse for the world and the west fought through while staying on top. Balancing the budget has a very small impact on the decline of the west and your idea that western governments are lazy and counterproductive is just your opinion.
Of the three nations you listed, One of them suffered a horrible financial setback when real-estate prices dropped and Dubai needed to have a financial bailout from their own capital city (U.A.E). Another is prospering but still is in turmoil because of the recent revolutions in the mid east that has sparked protests within the nation (Saudi Arabia). How is Saudi Arabia a rising power if they keep getting whipped by Israel every time Arab nations launch an attack? Lastly there is Brazil that is not as modern as China and are trying to just catch up with western nations. Brazil may have sugar ethanol as gas but they still buy most of those same cars from overseas, and sugar based ethanol wont stop the rampant deforestation of Natural Rain forests, increase infrastructure, fund their ballooning education budget, or limited access to clean water for almost half of their population. Problems that the West have managed to handle quite nicely without sugar based ethanol.
By the way that idea was developed from corn based ethanol which came into fruition first right here in the US.
As for your idea that the west doesn't fund scientists, I find that assumption laughable. The US is one of the largest researchers in Medicine, Weapondry, and Electronics; Switzerland still owns the largest particle accelerator in the world; Germany is making solar cells more effective along with cars, damns, wind turbines, etc. The West still funds scientists while the "rest" of the world is just now starting to exploit technology that has existed for years within the West.
Natural disasters do take money to fix, A LOT of money, but they also need a lot of resources, manpower, and ability to move resources, and that is something Japan did not have following the disasters. In the immediate aftermath it wasnt Japanese, South Korean, or Chinese troops loading emergency supplies off of planes and helicopters to Japanese civilians, it was the US military that did that. If a catastrophic natural disaster or series of natural disasters were to strike in the east it would take years for the nation to recover without US help.
China has the manpower to replace the sick only AFTER the illness has been contained through vaccinations, and guess who is number 1 in manufacturing vaccines to eastern illnesses, the US. The US already has a flu vaccine for this years flu even though it has not had the impact of any past epidemics, China does not yet have the medical capability to develop a vaccine to a massive flu outbreak that would otherwise tear the nation apart, but the US has had that potential for quite sometime.
As for the African scenario, how likely is it that any one nation could just rise up and maybe start to compete through random chance? South Africa became a minor world contender because of a great ruler in Nelson Mandela who led the country to greatness,but South Africa still faces a good deal of problems. Israel meanwhile was created by the west (through UN action) and are still funded by the west to have a chance of existing in the hostile middle east.
What are you even trying to say for the Middle East revolutions? Egypt overthrew their dictator months ago but the country still lies in economic turmoil, Tunisia is still the same, and Libya doesn't look to be an exception. I doubt that some sort of magical government will bring these nations to be number 1 in the world what will probably happen is that just like any other freshly forged democracy it will be inefficient, ineffective, divisive, and in bad conditions, corrupt.
Claiming that the "Rest" could start the next epoch and the next successive epochs is implausible because only the nations of East Asia show any potential to even rival the West. Meanwhile the rest of "The Rest" are foiling with infrastructure development, regime changes, and urbanization woes while the West are just trying to climb out of a global recession that pales in comparison to the Great Depression that they also fought through.
I said the economic troubles started roughly 20 years ago because that is when the "bubble" started and then it burst in 2008. The depression was stopped by American Hero Franklin Roosevelt and World War Two by public works projects, and the opening of jobs that where previously held by men 18-45 who went to war.
I also said that some of the countries would need time to adjust, but now China is getting a more capitalist economy so tourist based economies would still be getting business from Chinese executives.
I'm not saying that the West will crumble tomorrow, I'm saying in our lifetime. Germany and France are the only ones keeping the Euro zone together, and if one where to slip or continue the way it is, Europe would be devastated.
I was using Brazil as a scientific example. The west invented ethanol, but couldn't use it practically. Brazil is not close to being top but they are advancing. And maybe if the west didn't pressure Brazil to limit CO2 limitations they could of spent that money elsewhere.
An African power just wont pop up, in our lifetime we probably wont see it. An Epoch would last roughly 100 years, and in that time an African power could rise.
The US just cut NASA, did China, No, did Russia even though they are bankrupt No. NASA won the scientific side of the cold war, why can't it win the scientific future.
The Chinese hate the Japanese from WW2 so China will never help them.
America was just like any other freshly forged democracy it was be inefficient, ineffective, divisive, and in bad conditions, corrupt. Look where America is now, these new democracies have the same potential that the United States did, and can flourish.
The "Rest" are catching up to the West's scientific discoveries, and it won't be long before they have the same technologies, and are researching the same things.
Of the 15 Trillion this country owes, only 1.5 trillion is from China, the rest of the 13 Trillion comes from a long list of other countries, so China does not own most of our debt, they own about 10% of it
The economic FACTORS that lead to the economic collapse started 20 years ago but the economic TROUBLES we have started in 2008.
You state that the West will crumble sometime during our lifetimes but You do not offer any other examples of any other factors that could cause such a thing besides the current recession. For the West to crumble in our lifetimes while the rest of the world remains untouched is a scenario that will not easily take place, let alone sometime during our own lifetimes.
"And maybe if the west didn't pressure Brazil to limit CO2 limitations they could of spent that money elsewhere."
Then who else would take on the global initiative to fight global warming? China? they are the number one producer of CO2 and their output will only grow. The West is spending money to ensure the future of all other countries in the future and no other country outside of the West is equipped to carry out such an initiative.
"An African power just wont pop up, in our lifetime we probably wont see it. An Epoch would last roughly 100 years, and in that time an African power could rise."
The average lifespan in the US alone is about 78 (similar to most other western nations, while areas in Africa sometimes dont even break 40) So to say that we wont see an African power rise within our lifetimes but still claim one will rise sometime over the next 100 years just does not mathematically make sense.
"The US just cut NASA, did China, No, did Russia even though they are bankrupt No. NASA won the scientific side of the cold war, why can't it win the scientific future."
The US cut manned spaceflights they didnt drastically cut the program's funding or shut it down completely. NASA will still be a force in science that the US can use and that the rest of the world can benefit from.
These new democracies in Egypt do not have the same potential as that of the US. Immigrants do not want to flee to the new democracy in Egypt, Egypt does not have an unharnessed abundance of hospitable land to the west they can freely annex like the US did, and they are not immune to foreign conflicts like the US was initially shielded from. These new democracies in the middle East may have a lot in common with the initial democracy established i the US but the new ones in the Middle East lack the potential to the one forged in the late 1700's in America.
Western Dominance is not coming to an end, it is currently just going through a period of hard times due to the economic recession while China (and only China) is making significant process in becoming a more urbanized nation. China may be on the rise but it is still being forced to deal with extreme problems with urbanization that if not dealt with quickly and immediately could bring China's growth to a screeching halt. Meanwhile the West continue to make progress against this global recession as unemployment numbers start to creep down while they still carry the burden of protecting the world and ensuring its future so that the rest of the world can catch up. Until a majority of the rest of the world grows to such economic power that they themselves can take up initiatives such as global disarmament, fighting world hunger, etc then Western Dominance will not end. If you examine the condition of the "rest" of the world though it is unlikely this will happen soon, if at all.
Thanks for reading :D
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Both were well-made arguments. Good job both.
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