The Instigator
Moelogy
Pro (for)
The Contender
toocoolblue
Con (against)

Islam (Pro) vs. Christianity (Con)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/20/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 598 times Debate No: 103618
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
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Moelogy

Pro

I will be defending Islam. Opponent will be defending christianity

Definitions :

God - The necessary, uncaused, omnimaximal, timeless, spaceless being.
Exists - to have an objective being or existence.

Truth - objectively most likely

Rules :
-no trolling
-no forfeits
-no semantics (tweaking definitions of the dictionary)

Rounds :
Round one - acceptance
R2) arguments
R3) Rebuttals + arguments
R4) Rebuttals
R5) Rebuttals

BOP : Burden of proof will be shared.
toocoolblue

Con

Let's just get right to the topic. To keep things fair I will concede the last post.

There are many religions, teaching from many different scriptures. Despite all being written down by a man, all claim to be the true words of God. So, how do we know which words are really God"s?

Fortunately, the Bible directly deals with this question.

Deuteronomy 18:21 asks "
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

The answer comes in the following verse, Deuteronomy 18:22 -

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This is what separates Judeo-Christian beliefs from other religions - fulfilled prophecy.

The validity of scripture can be judged by how accurately it predicts the future. No other religion can offer Holy Scripture that can accurately predict the future.

The Bible contains many amazing prophecies, such as the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah.

Jewish scripture tells us"

1. When the Messiah will live " Daniel 9:24-27 (2000 years ago)

2. Where the Messiah must be born " Micah 5:2 (Bethlehem)

3. That the Messiah must be born of a virgin " Isaiah 7:14

4. Where the Messiah will preach " Isaiah 9:1-2 (Galilee)

5. That the Messiah must die " Daniel 9:26 (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut
off, but not for himself:) Isaiah 53:8 (for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the
transgression of my people was he stricken.)

6. Why the Messiah must suffer and die " Isaiah 53:3-6 (But he was wounded for our transgressions, he
was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we
are healed.) (And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.)

7. How the Messiah will suffer and die " Psalms 22:1-18 (All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they
shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let
him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.) (they pierced my hands and my feet.) (They part my
garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture)

King David wrote that Psalm, no one ever pierced his hands and feet or gambled for his clothes.

8. The Messiah would be a stumbling block to the Jews " Isaiah 8:14-15 (And he shall be for a
sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel)

9. That the Jews would reject their Messiah " Psalms 118:22, (The stone which the builders refused is
become the head stone of the corner.) Isaiah 53:3 (He is despised and rejected of men; a man of
sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and
we esteemed him not.)

10. That one day the Jews will look upon the savior they have pierced and mourn " Zechariah 12:10
(and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his
firstborn.)

11. The Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles " Isaiah 42:1-6 (I the Lord have called thee in
righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the
people, for a light of the Gentiles.) Isaiah 11:10 (And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which
shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.)

The prophecy in the book of Daniel regarding the date Jesus (the Messiah) is to appear - is so accurate, that the Rabbis have pronounced a curse on anyone who tries to calculate the appointed time of the Messiah"s coming.
Quote -
Similarly, one should not try to determine the appointed time for Mashiach's coming. Our Sages declared: 'May the spirits of those who attempt to determine the time of Mashiach's coming expire!' Rather, one should await and believe in the general conception of the matter as explained.
http://www.chabad.org...

In addition to these, there are hundreds more prophecies in Jewish Scripture that Jesus directly fulfilled.
https://jewsforjesus.org...

Incredibly, the Jews still refuse accept what Jewish Scripture teaches. And this, to me, is the fulfillment of one of the Bible"s most amazing prophecies.

Isaiah 6:9-10 teaches the Jews will see, but will not see. The Jews will hear, but will not hear. Despite every event that is happening today being written down thousands of years ago, the Jews simply refuse to acknowledge the truth written in Jewish Scripture. This very day we can witness the prophecies God has made concerning the Jews being fulfilled and yet, as prophesied, the Jews remain in complete denial of scripture they study every day.

In summary, God selected the Jews as his chosen people. But the Jews turned away from God"s teaching. In doing this, the Jews brought all manner of bad things upon themselves. Since the Jews refused to respect Him, God said he will turn to the Gentiles. Not because God was washing his hands of the Jews but rather, to draw the Jews back to himself through jealousy of the Gentiles. There is coming a time when God will make a new covenant with the Jews.

There are thousands more fulfilled prophecies in Judeo-Christian Scripture. Here are some -
http://www.biblestudytools.com...

But how does Islam fare in the test God has required of his true word? Complete failure.

Surprisingly according to the Qur'an itself, Muhammad is not a prophet for he has no prophecies to speak of (fulfilled or unfulfilled). Unlike Christians using the Bible, Muslims must to refer to works about Muhammad outside the Qur'an like the Hadiths. The Hadiths were written 2 centuries(200 yrs) after Muhammad died in 632 AD. But the prophecies speak for themselves.
http://biblicalfoundations.weebly.com...

In truth, there could be no better proof of this fact than to look at a pro-Islam website trying to "defend" prophecy in the Qur'an - it's laughable.
https://www.islamreligion.com...

The very first claim is -
The Protection of the Quran from Corruption
The Quran makes a claim no other religious text makes, that God Himself will keep its text safe from alteration.

There are so many errors and contradictions in the Qur'an that an official policy called "Abrogation" had to be developed to deal with them. If the "prophet" says one thing in Chapter 1 and then the exact opposite in Chapter 2, you believe Chapter 2.

And then there are the verses Muhammed wrote while possessed.
This site covers that pretty well.
http://radicaltruth.net...

Then there is the Appearance of the Antichrist and the End of the World problem.

Muhammad allegedly claimed that the Antichrist (called the Dajjal) was to appear shortly after the Muslim conquest of Constantinople.

The following traditions are taken from the Sunan Abu Dawud:
Book 37, Number 4281:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal).
Book 37, Number 4282:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.
Book 37, Number 4283:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.

Accordingly, Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 636 AD. Constantinople was taken over by Muslims in May 1453 AD. Yet the prophecy regarding Yathrib (Medina) being in ruins and Antichrist's advent to take place seven months after the conquest of Constantinople did not materialize. Based on the preceding traditions Antichrist was to appear in November 1453

Currently the "flourishing state of Jerusalem" is in existence but Mecca has yet to be in ruins. Accordingly, Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 636 AD. Constantinople was taken over by Muslims in May 1453 AD. According to Muhammad the AntiChrist should have shown up by November 1453 or if by Abdullah by May 1460. To date there has been no AntiChrist.

As we can see, Islam completely fails the prophecy test. But that doesn't mean they don't have excuses and attacks based on the failure to read properly.

Here is an example, If you specifically ask me a question about the FUTURE. Such as, In the FUTURE, what will cars be like?
And I respond, IN THE FUTURE, a car will achieve 1000 miles per gallon and will cost 100 dollars. THIS car is amazing!

What time period am I talking about when I say, "THIS car is amazing!" - Am I talking about NOW or the FUTURE?

Obviously, only an idiot would believe that I was referring to the current time period when I was SPECIFICALLY ASKED, "What is going to happen IN THE FUTURE?"

Christianity teaches that you should treat others the way you would like to be treated.
Islam teaches that you should murder anyone who will not convert to Islam.

The true God of both religions could not be more clearly revealed.
Debate Round No. 1
Moelogy

Pro

Christianity is false


Trinity

Deutronomy 6:4 was very clear "Hear O Israel, The Lord is Our God, The Lord is One".

This establishes that Not only is there one God but it establishes that God himself is one, not three as the trinitarians believe.

Jesus corroborates this point by reaffiriming the shema. In Mark 12:29-31, Jesus reaffirms the Jewish doctrine of the oneness of God. A Jewish scribe comes up to Jesus and asks "What is the most important Commandement?" Jesus then reaffrims this scribe who has a jewish understanding of God and is not part of the Jesus movement by any means that "Hear O Israel The lord is our God, The Lord is ONE". Jesus reaffrims that not only is there one God but that the essence of God is ONE not three.

Matthew 24:36 declares that only the Father is omniscient. Isaiah 46:9 - 10, Psalms 139:4, 1 Samuel 2:3, 1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:5 all entail that only God is omniscient. If the father is the only omniscient being and the only omniscient being is only God. Then Only the father is God, not Jesus, not holy spirit, not the seven angels of revelation. NONE execept the omniscient Father is God.

John 17:3 is self-evident. Jesus declares that "Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Jesus Christ HIMSELF admits that the Father is the ONLY true God and that Jesus Christ is just a messanger. Jesus Christ, the central figure of Christianity is decalring that he is a mere prophet and that ONLY the father is the Only true God.

Jesus calls himself son of man multiple times. Matthew 20:28 says "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve". Jesus proclaims that he came here to serve God NOT to be served by humans. He, morever, calls himself the Son of Man. Numbers 22:19 is very blunt God is not the son of man. So Jesus is not God.

The holy spirit, is the active force of the father. This is obvious in multiple passages like Psalms 143:10, Numbers 11:17, Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35) God sends out his spirit by projecting his energy to any place to accomplish his will.Psalm 104:30; 139:7. The holy spirit is God and just a different name of God and it is not a distinct person.

The second reason that Muslims reject the Trinity among multiple other reasons is that it is illogical. Is each person of the Trinity fully God or a third of the divine reality? Since each person of the trinity is distinct from one another, going with the former would mean christiantiy is polytheism and worships three distinct, different fully gods. This would go against Deut 6:4 and Mark 12 and the entire notion of christianity being monotheism. If each person is only the third of God then the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ is false and passages like John 1:14 and Colossian 2:9 (notice how it is Jesus saying that he is God despite Jesus himself bluntly denying his deity), ephesians 3:19 are false and then Jesus Christ is not really God but only a third of God contrary to hypostatic union. Christians love to regurgitate that God is beyond comprehension but the trinity is confusing, contradictory and illogical contrary to Paul who said "God is not the author of confusion" - 1 corinthians 14:33. The trinity is confusing and therefore not from God.


Jesus : God or his servant?

Jesus is called man several times in the bible like in John 8:40. Numbers 22:19 is clear God is not a man.

Matthew 12:40 and Matthew 16:27 declare Jesus to be the son of man but according to Numbers 22:19, God is not son of man.

Jesus straight up denied being God in Luke 18:19, Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18 when a man came to Jesus calling Jesus good then Jesus denied being good and said that only God is good.

John 17:3, Jesus is very blunt once again. He is only a messenger and only the Father is the ONLY true God.

Jesus even told his disciples to direct all prayer to the Father in Luke 11:2. If he was God why did he not say : "and the son as well" or something like "When praying, mention my name along the Father". Jesus is clear : All worship is for the Father, the only true God.

His disciples and followers denied Jesus being God and they said that Jesus was a mere servant of God in Acts 3:13, Acts 2:22, Acts 3:26, Acts 5:30, Acts 4:24, Acts 4:27, Acts 4:30, etc.

The most respect that the followers of Jesus were willing to give him was to be called lord which means having authority over something. - Acts 2:36

But everybody was called lord back then:

1) property owners (Matt. 20:8)
2) heads of households (Mark 13:35)
3) slave owners (Matt. 10:24)
4) husbands (1 Pet. 3:6)
5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30)
6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26)
7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63)

Jesus called everybody the sons of God in Matthew 5 and even Julius Caesar was called a son of God in the sense that we are children of God. However, when the pagan Romans (who later spread Christianity all over Europe and then the world) heard about Jesus being called Son of God they translated that to mean an incarnation of God because the pagans thought that son of God means God or God incarnate in Acts 14: 11-13, however what son of God really means is the righteous people and children of God as preached by Jesus in Matthew 5.


Incarnation is impossible, Hypostatic union is ridicolous

The idea of incarnation is that of a square-circle. Impossible. You simply can not have both God and Man. God is by definition, eternal, perfect, self-sufficient, omniscient, omnipotent,etc. Man on the other hand is imperfect, mortal, ignorant, weak, feeble, etc. You can not have both natures in one singular entity of Jesus Christ because they are both contradictory. It is not even 50% man and 50% God. It is 100% God and 100% man in the 100% entity of Jesus Christ. But that is impossible. It is a violation of the law of noncontradiction. How can one entity be both 100% omniscient and 100% ignorant at the same time. How can something be both 100% perfect and 100% imperfect at the same time? IT CAN NOT. It is literally and logically impossible.

Secondly, can we really believe that the Lord of the heavens and the Earth, the alpha and the omega, from everlasting to everlasting is the almighty, confined himself to 3 inches in the tomb for 9 months? That is blasphemy.

Salvation

It is obvious that Jesus taught that salvation is based on mercy and following the commandments and NOT sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13, Matthew 19:16-20, Luke 18:18-20, Mark 10:7-11, Luke 15, multiple other passages which are consistent with Old testament salvation in Hosea 6:6) + (All verses which display him saying salvation is by sacrifice or by baptism like mark 16:16 or John 3:16 are either later on fabrications and additions as proven by the codex sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus or they were written very late (john 3:16) allowing for an exponentially greater opportunity to be influenced by pauline theology or they were simply the words of man and other men around Jesus and not the words of Jesus himself). His disciples even preached a similar message that God's mercy + Repentance NOT sacrifice are the framework for our salvation in Acts 3:19 and in Acts 8:22.

The message of Jesus and his early followers got corrupted by Paul who taught that Jesus flipped the bill and died for our sins. The first documented case where Jesus is said to be the saviour and the doctrine of salavation through atonement of Jesus is intorudced is in Acts 13:13-18 by ... Paul.

Jesus had a different view of salvation. Jesus always taught that salvation is based on the mercy of God and on keeping thecommandements. In Matthew 9 verse 13 is alone capable of destroying pauline theology because Jesus establsihes that salvation is based upon mercy of the Lord and NOT sacrifice which is consistent with Luke 15's parable that God's salvation is through mercy and forgiveness and not sacrifice. Matthew 19:16-20 et al. even establishes that Jesus said that salvation is attained by keeping the commandements and NOT by sacrifice.

Three verses might come up in objection to the third point which are mark 16:16, Luke 9:55–56 and John 3:16.

The first two verses are forgeries and later additions that prove the bible is corrupted and not divinely inspired aince mere men can clearly just add and take away from it. Codex sinaiticus and codex vaticanus are the two oldest bibles we have and they do not include those two passages which means they are later additions and corroborates my point that salvation through atonement is not taught by Jesus but made up later by the Chruch. [1][2][3]

The luke passage does not include "but he came to save them" which further proves that the idea of christ's atonment is probably a later development.

Now for 3:16 from John my main two points against this :

1- John is very late (100's) so inevitable high vulnerability to pauline theology is indisputable.

2- I care more about how Jesus said salvation is achieved (not by sacrifice but by mercy and keepin the commandements) than I care about how John thought that salvation is achieved.


The bible is corrupted

The oldest two bibles we have, sinaiticus and vaticanus are radically different than today's bibles. [1][2][3] They do not include the markan ressurection which is pivotal. [3] [4] If mark does not include the ressurection, that means that the earliest, oldest and main source we have testifies that the Ressurection did not happen because if Mark does not include the ressurection and acknoweldges that it did not happen then Luke, Matthew, other gospels which copied Mark and used Mark as their primary source should ALSO not have the ressurection because they copied Mark who does not include the ressurection. This proves that the Bible is corrupted beyond reasonable doubt and that the ressurection is more likely than not to be a later addition by the Church.

Also, not to mention that Catholi bibles have 73 books while protestant bibles have 66 books. [5] This alone testifies that the Bible is corrupted, unreliable and is suffice to prove that Christianity is false.
toocoolblue

Con

A 10,000 character, error filled response AND NOT ONE WORD to DEFEND ISLAM.

NOT ONE WORD to prove that Allah is God.
NOT ONE WORD to prove that a child molesting, mass murdering, psychopath with a 9 year old bride, is God's profit.
NOT ONE WORD to to address Muhammad's failed prophecies.
NOT ONE WORD to explain why the "god" of Islam has to continuously "Abrogate" his own teachings.
NOT ONE WORD to explain why Allah is so weak he can't prevent his "Prophet" from being possessed.
NOT ONE WORD to explain why Allah is so weak he can't see into Bahrain.

YOUR title in this debate is Islam (Pro)....But you offer nothing that is Pro Islam.

NOT ONE WORD to defend what you claim to be true.

Isn't that amazing?!?!?

I ran out of room providing factual evidence for why Jesus is God. I had to resort to providing links, because One Million characters wouldn't have been enough room to detail all the fulfilled prophesies in Christian Scripture.

While I COULDN'T WAIT to explain why Jesus is God, YOU COULDN'T START to explain why Allah is god or why anyone should take Islam seriously. (well...other than that whole threat of death, if you don't agree with Allah that the Earth is flat, thing...)

But I can understand why you would rather attack what you clearly do not understand, than try to advocate a false religion that can only survive by revisionist history and threats of violence against those who speak the truth.

How could you advocate a false religion that actually has rules regarding how children should be molested?
Top Islamic scholars' explanations of Qur'an 65:4 show that the verse assumes consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls
http://quotingislam.blogspot.com...

A false religion that treats women as sub-human,
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

A false religion of murderers who advocate the murder of anyone who disagrees - even in "first world" nations.
List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad
https://wikiislam.net...

A third of Muslim students in Britain believe killing someone in the name of religion is justified, a new poll claims
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

As I said before the difference between true Christianity and Islam could not be more apparent.

But of all the errors and mistakes, that you have cut and pasted in your response...probably the largest, is this.

Catholics are NOT Christians. Attempting to attack Christianity by quoting Catholic scripture is the same as saying a Sunni is wrong because of what a Shiite said or vice-versa.

The Catholic Church has been attempting to pervert God's word from the very start. So the fact that you can not understand a Catholic bible which was designed to be corrupt is not a big surprise.

Thus, when you cut and paste these hysterical rants from various websites, (that you obviously don't understand), such as - "The bible is corrupted" what you really mean is that YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE IS CORRUPTED.

It is hard to imagine how someone could make as many mistakes as you made in one single paragraph. Your remarks are the result of the total failure to research what you are writing about and demonstrate a clear problem with the ability to think logically.

Even your attacks upon the false Catholic texts are completely wrong. Paul's letters, DETAILING THE RESURECTION were written DECADES before any of the four gospels. How you could jump to the conclusion that if something wasn't written in the Catholic version of Mark, which was written decades AFTER Paul's letters, that somehow this effects what is written in Matthew and Luke is just crazy. The entire purpose of having four gospels is because they record history from a different point of view. Not everything, appears in every gospel.

From there you proceed to make the absurd statement that these false Catholic texts are the "earliest, oldest and main source", The King James Bible is the MOST PUBLISHED BOOK in the history of the world. This is the MAIN SOURCE of Christian Scripture, In no way, does the real, true and correct Bible make use of the false Alexandrian manuscripts.

Of course, in the real Bible, the Resurection is mentioned in Mark.

And of course, when the websites you cut and paste from attempt to attack Christianity they want NO PART of questioning the King James Bible. NIV sure, ESB sure, NEW king james sure. You can have a feild day attacking those bibles. But not the KJV Bible.

And lastly, you conclude the error fest with this gem.

"Also, not to mention that Catholi bibles have 73 books while protestant bibles have 66 books. [5] This alone testifies that the Bible is corrupted"

If one book is lying and the other is telling the truth, concluding that both are lying is a demonstration of intelligence, that speaks for itself.

I could go on exposing how every thing Pro has written is in error, but why?

If he can't understand how H2O can exist as Ice, Water and Steam and still be the same thing,

How could he understand a God that has always existed as three parts?

How can he understand a God that died for him?
Rather than demand that he die for God?

How can he understand a God that DOES for him rather than a "god" that demands he DO for God.

In the quest to find which religion is offering the truth, this is the first test one should consider putting their faith to.

It is just two very simple words. DO and DONE.

False religions teach - Do this...Do that"Do some other thing, etc. Do, pay with your money" Do, pay with your time"Do, strap bombs to your children"Do, fly airplanes into buildings...Do, murder and say it"s in God"s name"Do, say a certain number of repetitive prayers" as if this will "earn" forgiveness of sin and God"s love.

"Do" religions teach that God"s approval is for sale and thus can be bought or earned, usually by a series of actions that conveniently enough make the people selling that religion very rich.

"Done" religion teaches that God has already DONE everything necessary for you to have an eternity in Heaven. It is a gift; all you have to do is receive it.

You should well know the cost of that gift, was so high that the very idea that you could contribute to it in any way, is absurd. You are receiving the full righteousness of Jesus Christ while he accepts your unrighteousness. What could anyone possibly offer to pay for this?

This DO or DONE test is a serious and legitimate question that every person seeking a genuine relationship with God should be asking of their own faith.

But when you have been raised in a hateful religion that demands constant suffering and blind obidence, finding the courage to ask such questions is not very likely.
Debate Round No. 2
Moelogy

Pro

Had a feeling I would regret his debate. If you had two brain cells and were able to read. You would have checked the comments where I said that I will refute Churchianity in round 2 and will defend Islam in round 3. You have wasted your entire just showing everybody how much of a sad lonely old bitch you are and provided 0 intelligeble argument for your cross-worshipping polytheist faith where God dies. Grow up and cut the swears because I will not tolerate being insulted or uselss and pointless towards my faith.

Islam

Scientific miracles

Big bang in the Qu'ran

21:30 : Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were one mass, and We tore them apart and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Earth and the heavens in Arabia is an idiom that means the universe or everything. (https://science.nasa.gov...)


Expansion of the universe

51:47 : And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

This is only being discovered nowadays with modern technology that did not exist back then. (http://skyserver.sdss.org...)


Life is made of water

21:30 : Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were one mass, and We tore them apart and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Now we know that the cell is mostly water. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...) and also the primary hypothesis on the origin of life called abiogenesis speculates that life came from water.


Two seas

25:53 : And He it is Who has let flow forth the two large bodies of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and an insurmountable, forbidding ban that keeps them apart.

There is no way that an Arab illiterate shepherd on a massive landlocked in an isolated city could have known this 1400 years ago because all the cases of such are in the western hemisphere.

This scientific foreknowledge is confirmed in Alaska (https://www.adn.com...) and In the gulf of mexico (http://captaingino.com...) +
(http://www.einfopedia.com...)

Halocline also is a witness to this foreknowledge. (http://www.whoi.edu...) + (http://www.divediscover.whoi.edu...)


These are four among thousands if not more.

Linguistic miracle

Qu'ran has produced a simple challenge that nobody has been able to fulfill. If you doubt the Qu'ran is from God, then write a Surah or a chapter like the one in the Qu'ran and let's see if you will be able to prove the Qu'ran is man-made. Qur'an 2:23 is where the challenge is. NOBODY has been able to fulfill this challenge to prove the Qu'ran is not from Allah since if it was Muhammad (PBUH) who can not read nor write and had very basic poetry challenges then it should be easy to replicate the poetry skills of an illiterate man but it is from God and nobody can compete with God's skills.



Prophet Muhammad in the bible

Deutronomy 18 :18

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (KJV)

The criteria is clear as day :

1- The prophet has to be from among the brethern of the Jews.

2- The Prophet has to be like Moses

3- He will speak what he is commanded and will put my words in his mouth

1) If you remember all the way back to Genesis 21, Abraham had two sons Isaac and Ishmael. The two are brethern or brothers. Ishamael became the grandfather of the Arabs and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jews. The brothers of the Jews are the Ishamaelites or the Arabs. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an Arab.

2) Prophet Muhammad is more similar to Moses than Jesus because they were both were given comprehensive law and code for life, both led armies and encountered enemies, Both migrated following conspiracies of their assasination, they were both married, they both had a natural death, etc.

3) This phrase is important in light of the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate and could not read nor write and his message was unique in that the Qu'ran is literally the actual words of God. That is what God meant when he said he will put his actual words into the mouth of the words, in that the words and the revelation of the Prophet will be the actual words of God which will be put and recited by the mouth of the Prophet. Jesus' revelation obviously did not have this feature but that was a feature of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

The Prophet was different from the Messiah as evident from John 1:19-21. If you read it the Jews were expecting three different people ; The messiah, elijah and the prophet. This indicates that the messiah is a different person from the prophet so if you want to claim that Jesus is the prophet, then he can not be the messiah.


I will make sure to try to discuss The fulfilled prophecies in the hadith in the next rounds (especially the fulfilled prophecies about the minor signs that we are apporoaching the end of times like increase in crossdressing and increase in homosexuality).



Rebuttals to Con's "arguments"


On Fulfilled Prophecy

If your main argument for Christianity's truth is fulfilled prophecies of Jesus, then you paint Jesus as the fattest failure of history. If you claim that Jesus is the messiah then he should fulfill ALL the prophecies of the old testament. Let's see what your "messiah" has failed to do.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).

This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment. There are more Jews outside of Israel than there are in Israel.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.


The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment by how many different religions there is.




On protection from corruption


Qu'ran IS perfectly perserved word-for-word from the time of the Prophet (PBUH). You can go check the sanaa' manuscript and the birmingham manuscript both dated to within the lifetime of the prophet minimum to 10 years after his death maximum. Assuming the hijazi dialect of the Arabic Language then the Qu'ran was protected word-for-word, something your false bible is demonstrably a failure at.


Abrogation

Your allegations are baseless and should be treated as such. The doctrine of abrogation is that of REVELATIONS not of verses so when the Qu'ran is saying that Allah is abrogating the Ayah (arabic for revelations or signs) then he is meaning that he is replacing one revelation (false corrupted bible) by another better revelation (Qu'ran). I do not know where you get the "verses" from. Maybe the translation.

Dajjal

You mentioned two hadeeths for this, BOTH from Abu Dawud. Sunni Muslims only accept two hadith collections Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim. You are quoting universally rejected sources among muslims. Some hadeeths in Abu Dawud are reliable, the vast majority are unreliable and rely on unreliable narrators or The Prophet's Jewish nenemies.

H2O

You failed miserably at the attempt to justify your worship of 3 Gods. What you are invoking is a heresy called modalism or sabellianism (https://en.wikipedia.org...). The trinity teaches that are 3 different beings who SIMULTAENOUSLY exist among each other, each being is fully God. That's three Gods. Your analogy fails because water exists as gas, liquid or solid, one at a time NOT simultaeonusly, as the trinity preaches its beings exist. To make your analogy more accurate is to have water is that is gas or wate vapor in a jar existing along side a cup of water that has liquid water existing alongside an ice cube. Three different distinct entities that are all 100% water so there are 3 waters. Same with the trinity. Three different distinct beings who are all 100% God. That's 3 Gods whether you like it or not. You are a polytheist. If your analogy works, then there is one God but he is sometimes the father, then at other times the son then at other times the holy spirit but he can not be all three at the same time. You are faced with a massive problem. Jesus or the son on Earth used to talk to the father in heaven all the time.
toocoolblue

Con

After deep consideration, I believe that it is probably in the best interest of anyone living near you, to end this debate.

You are clearly a deeply disturbed individual and I don't want to be responsible in any way for the actions of an Islamic extremist.

The only reason I accepted this debate was because you falsely represented yourself in another debate.
You said - "I am still deciding on which of the three religions I should choose" Obviously, that is not the case.

When you write things like...
"Grow up and cut the swears because I will not tolerate being insulted or uselss and pointless towards my faith."

What does that even mean? No one swore at you or your false religion, and the rest of your sentence isn't even intelligible.

I'm not sure why you would come to a site called DEBATE.ORG, AND THEN ASK people to point out the countless flaws in Islam and then get upset when they DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU ASKED THEM TO DO.

You need to understand that when you come to a site, and start an argument. People are going to point out the errors in your positions. If you can not "tolerate" that, do not start the discussion in the first place.

If you continue to seek out arguments regarding Islam, realize this -

ISLAM REQUIRES VIOLENCE FOR A REASON.

And that is because Islam cannot be defended with reason, logic or fact.

If you didn't like the way this debate went, believe me when I say that other people are going to be far more savage when it comes to criticizing Islam.

Although it is a complete waste of time, to believe that you are capable of rational thought.

I will address your (Rabbi's) attack on Jesus's fulfillment of prophecy.

Jesus is coming to Earth a second time. This indisputable fact, is well recorded in even Islamic scripture.

Islamic website Quote -
Both Islam and Christianity expect the return of Jesus at the end of times, and both expect trials and tribulations to occur at the time. Many of the themes of these trials are similar, but they are also very different in detail and definition. Both religions expect the nation of believers to be the final victors....
....Both religions teach that the return of Jesus will be preceded by a great and powerful figure of falsehood and temptation, called the Maseeh ad-Dajjal (The False Messiah) by the Muslims and the Anti-Christ by the Christians. Before this event other signs that agree with each other include a general increase in immorality and fornication, murder and crime, and general lawlessness, debauchery and falling away from religion and true knowledge.
https://www.islamreligion.com...

But Moelogy, as always, putting your intellect on display. You contend that because events which are clearly predicted to occur IN THE FUTURE did not occur IN THE PAST, this disproves scripture.

Let's test that theory as it applies to Islam.

Because Jesus has yet to fulfill old testament prophecies that clearly regard in his 2nd coming...such as when Jesus descends to save Israel, the Jews will - "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, Zechariah 12:10" does this prove that Jesus isn't the Messiah?

If your argument is that ALL PROPHECIES MUST BE FULFILLED IN THE PAST to be taken seriously. THEN WHY DO YOU TAKE ANYTHING IN ISLAM SERIOUSLY WHEN JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED TO EARTH?

Both Islam and Christianity say Christ shall return, both Islam and Christianity admit this event has yet to happen.

So since a "prophecy" of Islam has yet to fulfilled does this disprove Islam?

Do you realize the error of your own argument?

But since you utilize the faulty "Rabbi's Objection" to Christ. I will include a response to this for Jews as well.

If Christ must die, then return to life and then rule Israel with a iron rod all within his 33 year lifetime, and thus fulfill ALL PROPHECIES REGARDING THE MESSIAH (IN THE PAST), - to be considered the Messiah.

Does the objection that ALL PROPHECY MUST BE FULFILLED IN THE PAST apply to Jewish scripture as well?

What if God made a prophecy regarding someone who is now dead, and that prophecy has yet to come to pass, does that prove that God is a liar and all Judaism is false?

In Genesis 15:18 God promised Abraham land that would included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east).

This entails all of the land Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

This "Promised Land" is affirmed in Genesis 26:3, Genesis 28:13, Exodus 23:31and Joshua 1:4

Yet, neither Abraham nor any other Jew has ever possessed all of those lands.

So either Abraham is going to live again to see this prophecy fulfilled (when Jesus brings him back to New Jerusalem) or God is a liar and all of Judaism is a fraud because this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

So as you see, when you apply the test of asking why things which are obviously prophesied to occur IN THE FUTURE have not occurred IN THE PAST.

ISLAM FAILS AND JUDAISM FAILS.
Debate Round No. 3
Moelogy

Pro

Rebuttals

On my identity

Con makes no argument and commits the ad hominem fallacy calling me an extremist and saying that he did not know I was Muslim when in my profile it says Muslim.

" ALL PROPHECIES MUST BE FULFILLED IN THE PAST to be taken seriously. THEN WHY DO YOU TAKE ANYTHING IN ISLAM SERIOUSLY WHEN JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED TO EARTH?"

Because Muslims do not velieve in the bible and we believe that the bible is corrupted and most of the prophecies and the story of Jesus is false and man-made ... Just like your entire false religion

On Prophecies in christianity

Con says that fulfilled prophecies is evidence of Christianity but what he does not realize is that per his line of reasoning, Jesus is not the messiah because he did not fulfill many of the "prophecies" in the OT. He tries to defelct my argument against me by saying that Islam is the messiah so Islam is just as vulnerable to failed prophecies. Half of that argument is true and half is false. Muslims do believe that Jesus is the Christ but NOT because jesus fulfilled the prophecies. It was Con's argument that Jesus is the messiah because he fulfilled prophecies but that is demonstrably false. Muslims believe that the OT is corrupted and the prophecies thus have been altered as well so we do not know use corrupted man-made "prophecies" to prove our religion unlike Con who tried to do so desperately.


In conclusion so far, Con has not even addressed my arguments and evidence for the truth of Islam in Round 1 and he has obviously failed at defending his man-made false religion. Moreover, he has additionally failed to answer my critique of his false religion in Round 2. This debate is frankly a waste of time and mental resources.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Moelogy 5 months ago
Moelogy
Made an error. Everytime I say Numbers 22:19, I mean Numbers 23:19
Posted by Moelogy 5 months ago
Moelogy
Announcements:

1) I will not even bother reading Con's "argument" in Round 1 because Round 1 is acceptance NOT arguments

2) I will rebut Christianity in round 2 and prove Islam is true in round 3

Sources for round 2)

[1] - https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
[2] - http://codexsinaiticus.org...
[3] - http://codexsinaiticus.org...
[4] - https://www.gotquestions.org...
[5] - http://www.holytrinityparish.net... + http://www.christianbiblereference.org...
Posted by Spud 5 months ago
Spud
Nothing wrong with a bit of Imagine Dragons now is there? Monster, Radioactive, It's Time are my favs from them.
Posted by NDECD1441 5 months ago
NDECD1441
So does batman, robin, and 100% actual, no hard feelings, cool, kind and good people.
Posted by canis 5 months ago
canis
Islam does exist. Christianity does exist. But Spiderman. Superman and Santa do exist too..if you want to believe it...
Posted by NDECD1441 5 months ago
NDECD1441
Dude that's harsh.
Posted by Moelogy 5 months ago
Moelogy
Oh just saw your bio again. It says "Music : Imagine Dragons". I am sorry I do not debate homosexuals.
Posted by Moelogy 5 months ago
Moelogy
Might wanna do a separate one after so do not accept THIS debate.
Posted by LogicalPen 5 months ago
LogicalPen
Why did my comment double? Weird.
Posted by LogicalPen 5 months ago
LogicalPen
I haven't been on debate.org in about a year, and that was so I could test an argument essay. My friend and I talked about religion and I realized how fucked it is. You still wanna do the debate?
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