The Instigator
muslimnomore
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Mahmoud.Y
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Islam allows men to pressure/force their wives into having sex

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,159 times Debate No: 41466
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (19)
Votes (0)

 

muslimnomore

Pro

From Bukhari

Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the Angels will curse her till morning."

From Tirmidhi

Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven!"


Please argue against the idea that these ahadith imply that women are basically obligated to have sex with their husbands even if they don't feel like it.
The idea that if a wife refuses sex, it is basically considered a sin.
Mahmoud.Y

Con

I should start off by tell you that Muslims don't believe in both Hadith and Tafsir INDEFINITELY. We respect them, yes, but if we don't we are not sinning. Why? Simply because God clearly says that His word and His word alone isprotected from falsehood. Meaning that Hadiths that are related to the Prophet pduh can be easily changed and mutilated, some of them are complete baloney, but you know what? I don't care because I mainly heed to word of God which He protects in contrast to the allegedly said words of the Prophet. Tafisrs are also the hard of work of learned men, not scripture. So they too can easily be mistaken OR their opinions can relate to THEIR time line. Only the words of God are eternal.
But I am not denying that there are marital duties towards BOTH husband and wife. The thing is, your quotes are not bad, the quotes don't say that the women will be harmed in ANY WAY. The angels are not robots, they don't go on auto-curse the moment the woman refuses. She has rights too, and God being the all-knowing knows how SHE feels and the stresses she is going through. Islam would recommend the logical solution: either get marriage counseling or get a divorce but it is unfair for both the husband and wife to not enjoy marital life.

The fact that you just want to hate on Islam would be a totally different subject, but I truly think you are looking for a productive conversation.
Debate Round No. 1
muslimnomore

Pro

I should start off by tell you that Muslims don't believe in both Hadith and Tafsir INDEFINITELY.

I disagree with this statement to a large extent. Most of the obligatory rituals and observances that muslims follow are described in the ahadith and not in the Quran. Theu Quran does not explain the details of how salah is to be performed for example. Many articles of faith that are part of the aqeedah of a muslim are described in detail in the ahadith and they are not just found in the Quran. Most muslims believe in the authenticity of the sahih ahadith collections. bukhari, muslim and tirmidhi are amongst the most reknowned. My friend, the way the quran was preserved is very similar to the way many of the ahadith were preserved as well. you can't just follow the quran and ignore the sahih ahadith.

Only the words of God are eternal.

Again, the same people who preserved the quran are narrators and presevers of many ahadith. If you believe in one and not the other, you have doouble standards.

But I am not denying that there are marital duties towards BOTH husband and wife. The thing is, your quotes are not bad, the quotes don't say that the women will be harmed in ANY WAY. The angels are not robots, they don't go on auto-curse the moment the woman refuses. She has rights too, and God being the all-knowing knows how SHE feels and the stresses she is going through. Islam would recommend the logical solution: either get marriage counseling or get a divorce but it is unfair for both the husband and wife to not enjoy marital life.

So basically, all that talk about only respecting ahadith and not necessarily following them was uselss, because you don't see anything wrong with the wording of those ahadith. The quotes (the ahadith in other words... the sayings of your holy prophet) state that the angels curse the wife. and you seem to imply that this is not what they mean. What is your proof of this? I agree counselling or divorce seem like a much more logical solution but clearly this is not what Muhammad was recommending here. Unfortunately, a woman, as I am sure you know, is not legally allowed to ask her husband for divorce. The husband however, can tell his wife that he is divorcing her. Very unfair. I know a wooman can go to a qadhi to ask for a divorcee, but even then she will not be granted one until she provides evidence that her husband is performing acts of kufr. Please don't try to deny this as people can easily look this up and many muslims prescribe to this version of Islam.


The fact that you just want to hate on Islam would be a totally different subject, but I truly think you are looking for a productive conversation.

I was, but this is not a productive conversation. In my opinion, you did not even come close to proving me wrong and I was hoping that I was misinterpreting these ahadith.

I am fairly certain however, that in your heart, you do not like the fact that Islamic scriptures are so unfair towards women. I am certain of this because the solutions you suggested are much better than the 'solutions' provided by the quran and sunnah.

Mahmoud.Y

Con

I disagree with this statement to a large extent. Most of the obligatory rituals and observances that muslims follow are described in the ahadith and not in the Quran. Theu Quran does not explain the details of how salah is to be performed for example. Many articles of faith that are part of the aqeedah of a muslim are described in detail in the ahadith and they are not just found in the Quran. Most muslims believe in the authenticity of the sahih ahadith collections. bukhari, muslim and tirmidhi are amongst the most reknowned. My friend, the way the quran was preserved is very similar to the way many of the ahadith were preserved as well. you can't just follow the quran and ignore the sahih ahadith.

--- Muslims do follow the ahadith. I agree, actually the meaning of SUNNA which is the largest sect of Muslims comes from the acts of the prophet. But God gave us a brain for a reason and as I said before (I will say it again and explain it): in Islam God ensured to protect the Holy Scripture ONLY. He said that unlike the Torah and New Testament the Quran will be divinely protected. So it doesn't matter for a muslim if the Quran and the Snow White were transferred in the same way because God HIMSELF ensured to protect the Quran. He said nothing about the words of the Prophet pbuh.
What does that mean? Simple, anything God didn't write in his Book I can just ignore. The prayer which is the MAIN thing that is passed through ahadith is mentioned in the Quran but without steps. The prophet taught people how to pray and unlike words prayer is an act performed everyday by muslims. Might it have been changed over the years slightly? Sure, but God isn't a video game with right and wrong moves.
If a hadith is not fitting today then there is a reason God didnt put it the Book. It aint freakin fittin for all generations. I still don't find ANY problem in the hadith until now, whether it be wrong or right. i just wanted to make it clear that ahadith aren't as ground breaking as some people like to make them to abuse odd or weird ahadith. In this case I don't the hadith wrong at all.

Again, the same people who preserved the quran are narrators and presevers of many ahadith. If you believe in one and not the other, you have doouble standards.

--- No, God said he would divinely protect the Quran ONLY. This might not matter to u as an atheist but it matter to help you understand that the Quran is for all the generations (eternal) and the hadiths are not all so and might not be all correct. So anything that defies reason you can just ignore.

So basically, all that talk about only respecting ahadith and not necessarily following them was uselss, because you don't see anything wrong with the wording of those ahadith. The quotes (the ahadith in other words... the sayings of your holy prophet) state that the angels curse the wife. and you seem to imply that this is not what they mean. What is your proof of this? I agree counselling or divorce seem like a much more logical solution but clearly this is not what Muhammad was recommending here. Unfortunately, a woman, as I am sure you know, is not legally allowed to ask her husband for divorce. The husband however, can tell his wife that he is divorcing her. Very unfair. I know a wooman can go to a qadhi to ask for a divorcee, but even then she will not be granted one until she provides evidence that her husband is performing acts of kufr. Please don't try to deny this as people can easily look this up and many muslims prescribe to this version of Islam.

--- no it meant that your proof even it was obscene doesn't affect Islam. But what did you want the prophet to say? Did you want him to mention the electric bills and cable expenses too? Prophet Mohammed was 1400 years ago. Women can't divorce men except in front of a court. But men must also finalize their divorce in courts! Is it ridiculous that a woman can't divorce except of a major defect in her husband? Sure! Should Islam be blamed for it? Hell no! Misogynist nut bags who exist EVERYWHERE are the ones that should be blamed.
And talking about the ahadith: a woman came to the prophet pbuh and asked for a divorce, he told her did the man do an act of kufr or hit her or anything or the such? She said no, that he is a good man. The prophet said then give him his garden (his property) and have your divorce.
Ahadiths are not all certain but infact they must change and fit our modern life. The only thing that can't "fit" or modern life but vice verse is the Quran and the direct word of God.

I was, but this is not a productive conversation. In my opinion, you did not even come close to proving me wrong and I was hoping that I was misinterpreting these ahadith.
--- The hadith has nothing wrong with it. I explained that a couple of times now. If the hadith said CUT THEIR HEADS OFF!!!! then yes it would be ridiculous but all it said is that is a sin not fulfill the martial needs for no reason at all. And I said the solutionin 2013 is marriage counseling or divorce. Simple and makes sense. You just want to create a religious and moral dogma out of nothing when the solution is pretty simple.
Debate Round No. 2
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
mahmoud.
ALLAH said he will protect deen until day of judgement.
u are saying only hadith.
there is also the guarantee of whole deen.
and in deen muslims also falls.
even ALLAH is taking the guarantee of muslims.
Posted by Mahmoud.Y 3 years ago
Mahmoud.Y
Not really no. The Hadith adds to many parts of the quran and gives examples of daily life BUT the Hadith is 1400 years ago so it is not eternal in all cases. For example prayer details can be followed but some laws that are only mentioned in Hadith can be changed according to the time and age.
We should seek only the good thing in the Hadith and disregards the useless or wired stuff simply because Hadith is not quran. We can pick and chose what we like and what we don't.
But actually the quran stands on its own pretty well in most things.
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
agreed arabrab
Posted by arabrab 3 years ago
arabrab
The Qu'ran would be goobly glop without Hadith.
Posted by Mahmoud.Y 3 years ago
Mahmoud.Y
Hey, was great talkin to ya!
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
ok i don't think there is any real point of disagreement here then.
Posted by Mahmoud.Y 3 years ago
Mahmoud.Y
Why did god then not say that he would protect the sahih too? What I mean is that only the quran is eternal and all hadiths should be contextualized and taken with a grain of salt. Of course your hadiths muslimnomore (<-sadly) have nothing wrong in them as I explained. So yeah, I accept them.
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
i never denied a,b,c or d myself. but the ahadith i presented are sahih.
Posted by Mahmoud.Y 3 years ago
Mahmoud.Y
Hey, don't misinterpret my message here! I said the Hadith is second to the quran. It bears weight, yes and I aknowledged that, but in no shape way or form are hadiths half as important as the quran specially that they are not protected by god from changing over time and some of them are complete lies.
What I mean is:
A) Always follow the quran.
B) Follow hadiths too.
C) But if some hadiths contradict today's ethics and behavior then we can disregard it because it can be a total fabrication or simply something that applied to that time.
D) atheists who bring redicilous hadiths and claim that this affects islam, I tell the, hadiths can be total fabrication. GOD ONLY PROTECT HIS HOLY BOOK.

For example if the prophet supposedly said, if I would tell a women to worship other than god then it would be her husband.... I don't believe the Prophet coud have said that... But it is a Hadith and do you know what? I don't give a dam-n because it might be total fabrication.

That's what I am saying. But if a Hadith is good and plausible then be my guest and follow it.
Posted by makhdoom5 3 years ago
makhdoom5
mahmoud.y are u kidding me what kind of islam u brought here.
without hadith there is no islam.
its complete ALLAH said in quran follow orders of ALLAH and prophet saww.
when u follow the instruction of prophet saww u are following the instruction of ALLAH.
u are ahlay quran who are not muslims.
ok
only quran is not enough.
coz ALLAH said when u have clash than go to quran.
its the final guidance.
we cant neglect quran in any matter but hadith is so important.
No votes have been placed for this debate.