The Instigator
yamansaran
Pro (for)
The Contender
LDBen
Con (against)

Islam as a religion treats females as inferiors to males.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/9/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 389 times Debate No: 104364
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
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yamansaran

Pro

Note for the opponent: I wish to stipulate some rules for this debate. I hope you find these rules reasonable:
Please avoid Ad Hominem
Please, if needed, use proper sources, and try to avoid skewed or biased data.
Please maintain a formal tone throughout the majority of the debate.
Please, if possible, maintain a set form for the debate; the first round being for the starting arguments, the second for refutes for said arguments, the third for another set of arguments, the fourth for more refutes, and the fifth for a final few arguments to end the debate. I find it much simpler and classier than a randomly made and unorganised effort.
Please, and I mean please, don't take this personally. I am not attacking any belief, just stating an opinion.


Now that the rules are set, let us begin.

1-
For a woman to get married, she requires her father's consent. The mother has no say.

2-
Polygamy. A complicated bit.
Polygamy is the wrong term though, the correct term is Polygyny, as women are not allowed to have multiple spouses. The main reason why, lineage, bears no weight in today's world as DNA tests are rather easy to get.
The Prophet (I bear no ill thoughts about him, he was a product of his time) preached a maximum of four wives in a time where there was no limit ( https://quran.com... ), but going from -10 to -5 is still negative.
He did break the rule by marrying 9 women at once, and the ever so controversial marriage of a six year old, consummating (having intercourse) it when she was 9. according to sources ( http://www.madsci.org... ) the female body would be ready for sex 1.5 to 6 years after puberty begins ( Menstruation means the Uterus is prepared for conceiving, not the body).
The hadith showing her age is ( https://sunnah.com... )
( https://www.census.gov... until age 50, there are more men than women, thus the "More women than men" argument doesn't hold up)

3-
A woman's Testimony.
( https://quran.com... ) In cases that require a testimony, men are the priority, and only if two men aren't available, then two women and one man are required. Four women won't count, a man is needed.
(https://muflihun.com... )

4-
Sex in marriage.
( https://muflihun.com... https://muflihun.com... )
A woman does not have the right to refuse sex to her husband. Her consent does not factor into the variables of sex (Only Menstruation and illness matter)
Another point worth mentioning is how a woman is impure during her menstruation, a completely natural process involving bleeding.
A man is only impure when he releases sexual fluids. I assume that a woman's sexual fluids carry the same ruling.
As far as I know, if a man bleeds, he is not considered impure.
( https://quran.com... )
Men are entitled to beat their wives in case of disobedience. As far as I know, men do not need to obey their wives, nor can wives beat husbands.


5-
Divorce.

“Talaaq(divorce) is the right of the one who seizes the leg (i.e., consummates the marriage)” i.e., the husband. (Narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2081; classed as hasan by al-Albaani inIrwa’ al-Ghaleel, 2041).
I can't understand why this would be. It does not make sense.

"If a women asks her husband for a divorce, for no reason, then the smell of paradise is forbidden for her". (At-Tirmidhi narrated it. He said this is a hasan hadith. Sunnah At-Tirmidhi #1187.)
I apologize for not finding links for the above Hadith, but I will link the page I found them in:
( https://islamqa.info... )
A man only needs to say Talaq (Divorce) three times to divorce his wife.
A woman is also required to be subservient to her husband, and obedient and she needs his permission to leave the house.
6-
Ruling.
( https://sunnah.com... )
Simply said, a woman can't lead a nation, even if she was more than capable, simply because she is a woman.

7-
( https://muflihun.com... )
Simply put, the rape of captive females.
Many have said that it was not rape, but common sense says otherwise.
Imagine you are a woman, and your city was attacked by outsiders. All the males; your family, were killed, and you were taken captive. would you consent to sex with those men?
The Hadith talks about the men wanting to do Coitus Interuptus, but the Prophet said not to do so.
So not only are you raped, but impregnated. rather nasty if you ask me.
Though that seems because the women are technically slaves, and slaves cannot be raped as they have no agency, something eerily similar to the concept of sex slaves.

8-
( https://quran.com... )
A man can marry a Jew or Christian, but a woman can only marry another Christian. Gender based discrimination once more. There is no reason why this exists, as the oftenly cited explanation is that the women can be turned against their religion, and the children would by default take the father's religion.
This makes no sense, as a man can be turned just like a woman, and the children can just as easily take the mother's religion in both cases. No reason to base lineage on the father as, genetically, children are half of each parent.
( The son would be more like his mother, as the X chromosome he takes from her has nearly a thousand genome, while the Y supplies by the father has around 80 only)


Other points worth mentioning:
( https://muflihun.com... )
A woman was beaten by her husband until her skin went green, and seemingly lied to get a divorce (understandable for a victim of abuse). The prophet told her to return to her husband.

( https://quran.com... ) Woman must remain inside the house.

Along with that, I remember reading verses that state that men have authority over their wives by default, and a woman can not lead the household, even if she was more capable than the husband.

( https://muflihun.com... )
Women are less intelligent than men, a fact known to be false as it is culture that causes the mental differences between genders, not the genders themselves.
Humans are born with an underformed brain, and the enviroment of growth dictates the brain structures which cause males to be on average to be more intelligent than females.
Correlation does not mean Causation.
An analogy I found to explain this is:
Who is more intelligent? A European or African person?
The European, as the enviroment he grew up in is more likely to be less harsh, thus helping him grow a healthy mind.
Gender roles placed on children cause them to grown differently ( I.E. girls to be girly), causing the differences in Grey and White matter in the average Male and Female brain.
It is culture and childhood enviroment that decide the mental prowess of an individual, not genetics ( unless genetic deficiencies count, as they are an exception)
This Hadith also furthers the bit on the Testimony and the Impurity during Menstruation.


These are my points, I hope we can both enjoy this debate with no ill feelings between each other.


LDBen

Con

I just want to say that anything I say in this debate should not be considered as a reflection of who I am in real life. However, I will do whatever is possible to win.

First, all of your arguments can be grouped under one point: that Islam treats women as inferiors to men. However, I will argue that no just Islam treats women as inferior, but society itself treats any non-white, non-male, poor person as inferior. The concept of religion does not mistreat women but the society it occupies does.

For example, in your first argument, you argue that for a woman to get married she requires her father's consent and that means that Islam treats women as inferior to men. However, this is not the fault of Islam. This is instead the fault of society. In many cultures, women are not allowed to get married without their father's consent. Using a person's religion to justify their actions is wrong.

In your second argument, you cite Polygamy or Polygyny as a reason why Islam treats women as inferior. However, once again, this is not just an Islam theme. Many cultures and religions also allow for this to happen. Furthermore, other religions take this much farther than Islam. Thus, Islam is not the one to blame, society is.

In your third argument, you provide an example that men are required for a testimony. However, you seem to be promoting an unfair court case. If there is a trial against a man and 12 women hear the testimony they would convict the man in a heartbeat. The rule requiring a man merely keeps balance in any judicial system.

In your fourth argument, you cite an almost rape like rule that Islam has. However, this is, once again, not a theme central to Islam. In many cultures, this was considered commonplace and not treated as "immoral." Thus, this is not Islam mistreating women but society as a whole.

In your fifth argument, you cite that "If a woman asks her husband for a divorce, for no reason then [Heaven] is forbidden from her." However, any divorce no matter what religion is considered immoral if without reason. Marriage is regarded as a powerful bond among many cultures and breaking that relationship must have a good reason.

In your sixth argument, you cite that "A woman can't lead a nation, even if she was more than capable, simply because she is a woman." However, this is a theme that is common throughout society. If a woman is even more than capable than her male opponent, she will still not be a leader. For example, in the 2016 U.S. election, Hillary Clinton was considered to be a more capable leader than her opponent Donald Trump. However, she lost and a Bipartisan opinion state Clinton being a woman as one of the main reasons she lost. Thus, it is the society that treats women as inferior not Islam.

In your seventh argument, you cite that women were raped when in captivity or slavery. However, we can look to other aspects of the world in where people who were not from the nation of Islam abused their slaves. For example, Thomas Jefferson was notorious for his rape and impregnating of his slave. Thus, the blame does not fall to the religion of Islam but society.

In your eighth argument, you seem to argue that woman was thought to be more easily turned in a religious sense. However, this is commonplace throughout society. For example, the Roman Catholic Church requires that two people must have gone through Confirmation (An initiating rite) before they can marry. Thus, it is the society to blame and not Islam.

In your additional arguments, you state that women are less intelligent than men because of their circumstances. However, this is commonplace throughout society. The wage gap between men and women has been large across all cultures, not just Islam. Thus, society is at fault, not Islam

Thank you! I hope that we can keep this civil and I wish you luck.

-LDBen
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