The Instigator
theunionforever61
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points
The Contender
imsmarterthanyou98
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

Islam does not call for the killing of apostates

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
imsmarterthanyou98
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,679 times Debate No: 58481
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (5)

 

theunionforever61

Pro

There has been a lot of criticism of Islam by conservative media outlets, and one thing I see many of them claiming in their criticisms is that Islam requires the death penalty for those who leave the religion. This is completely false. My opponent will try to prove it true.

(Before accepting this debate, please note that you have only 24 hours to reply to arguments. Thank you.)

Definition: An apostate is someone who leaves a religion.

Rules:

1. We will only be using the Quran in this debate not the actions of Muslims or the sunnah or the hadeeth (The sunnah and hadeeth are the recorded actions and sayings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Most are false and they are frequently contradictory on important subjects. That is why only the Quran shall be used in this debate).

2. Please do not go off on a tangent such as women's rights or terrorism in Islam. Those are completely different topics that do not pertain here.

3. You may begin your arguments immediately in the first round. It is not just for acceptance.

I wish my opponent luck and I hope this will be a good debate.
imsmarterthanyou98

Con

Does ISLAM call for the killing of apostates?

Taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm
Question:

Does Islam proscribe the death penalty for Muslims who wish to embrace another religion?


Answer:

Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed.
W

According to Islam, the Quran contains the exact words of the only god of the universe. It is complete, perfect, eternal and universal.

following verses taken from the KORAN .
Which is arguably the most unpleasant book in all of fiction , the QU'RAN explicitly demands death for ANYONE who choses to leave this totalitarian, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal, sadomasochistic ,
religion.

S
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."



Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously became Muslim to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.


Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

Advocates for killing apostates have pointed out that the supporting hadith are reliable and thus qualify as law according to verse 4:80 - "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed.
This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"


Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats

(i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"


Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress.

(The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).


Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).


Sharia Law also MANDATES EXECUTION for.
Homosexuals

Adulterers
Critics of:
Allah
Muhammad
Quran
ISLAM
AND DEATH FOR APOSTATES




Sources.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...;
Debate Round No. 1
theunionforever61

Pro

You broke both of the rules of this debate. But I will continue with the debate if you still want to.

It saddens me that a man calling himself a muslim knows so little about islam that he actually says the only reason Islam survives is because it had to scare or kill everyone into submission. He is no better than conservative critics that say the same. Never mind the fact the most populous Muslim country, indonesia, was never visited by an islamic army. But I'm not concerned with what him or any other so-called "scholar" of islam says. The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me. I'm concerned with what god says in the Quran.

Here are verses about apostasy:

Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray."

Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
(Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. If a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.)

Here are two verses that deal explicitly with apostates. It does not order anywhere to kill them or torture them. It says that they will be punished in the afterlife.

Your hadiths make no sense when you look at these verses. Why would Muhammad (pbuh) say to kill apostates when it says nowhere in the Quran to do this? This man's life was dedicated to God and his religion, Islam. He would be violating Islam if he did order the killing of apostates since it says in the Quran:

Noble verse 6:151 says, "and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully." (i.e. You cannot kill anyone except if they have broken a law).

As I have shown, nowhere in the Quran is there a law that commands the killing of apostates, so the hadiths you have cited are in direct contradiction with the Quran. The prophet would never violate God's law. In these cases the Quran has to be followed instead of the hadith, since the Quran was revealed by God and free from error while the hadiths and sunnah have definitely been corrupted by people over the past 1400 years. These hadiths are most certainly false (which is why I don't like using hadiths or sunnah in debates since you cannot know for sure which are true and which are false).

As for your verses, every single one was revealed when the Muslims were fighting the Quraish tribe, their mortal enemies and oppressors. Theses verses command the Muslims to fight back against them, not to find all non-believers or apostates and kill them. In fact, it never mentions apostates in any of your Quranic verses. These verses were for a specific time and place, which unfortunately, many people, Muslim and non-Muslim, don't understand. They do not mean to force people to become Muslim or kill them, for its says in the Quran:

Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

The Quran chapter "The Cow," 2:190, says, "Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors."

Noble verse 8:61 "But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things."

In black and white, as clear as can be it says that you cannot force people into Islam or start wars, and you must make peace if the enemy asks for it. Muslims did not attack the Quraish, the Quraish attacked them and God is simply telling the Muslims to fight back.

You said:

This verse (9:11-12) is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously became Muslim to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.

I don't get what you are trying to say here, since the verse makes no mention of any "infidel" converting to Islam and then being killed.

I look forward to you arguments.
imsmarterthanyou98

Con

let's see all the points PRO dosen't even MENTION

Taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

Question:

Does Islam proscribe the death penalty for Muslims who wish to embrace another religion?


Answer:

Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed.

Pro DOSEN't EVEN MENTION ALL THESE VERSES

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

Advocates for killing apostates have pointed out that the supporting hadith are reliable and thus qualify as law according to verse 4:80 - "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed.
This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"


Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats

(i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"


Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress.

muhammad most likely demands the death of apostles becuse he was a delusional, mentally sick person afraid of people leaving his cult. However this debate is about what MUSLIMS believe therfore his word is law.


Pro has not responded to all of my points.

I've shown that not only does the KORAN demand death for apostasy but SO DOES ISLAM.
Debate Round No. 2
theunionforever61

Pro

theunionforever61 forfeited this round.
imsmarterthanyou98

Con

Pro didn't even try. I win...
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Relativist 2 years ago
Relativist
The apostates' punishment is not in the Quran, its entire punishment is in the hadith.........There is no misintrepretation because there is no such Quranic verse that prescribes the punishment specically to apostates.

Moreover, Bukhari is considered to be authentic, but it did not, under any circumstances to have came from the Quran, much as the comments would like to claim.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
I can see by neutral's vote that neutral has never read the Koran.
I was disgusted by that book, no need for visiting anti-Islamic sites for their attitude to apostates.
The tales of my friends who fled Iran and Pakistan after turning atheist agree entirely with Con.
They lost family members whose conversion to Atheism was discovered when they joined an atheist website, they simply disappeared after being captured.
Because infidels are supposed to die if they do not return to Islam.
That is my reading of the Koran in the 1970s.
Islam has tried to soften the Koran since then, but the leaders are still working from the original version that sentences apostates and infidels in general to death.
My landlady lost her brother when they both converted to Bahai, which is an offshoot of Islam anyway.
He was discovered and she fled Iran to escape death threats.
Posted by lifemeansevolutionisgood 2 years ago
lifemeansevolutionisgood
This is disappointing. I thought Pro might have at least tried. Oh well, looks like Con will win this.
Posted by theunionforever61 2 years ago
theunionforever61
Thanks for helping me see the full context of the verse. Ramadan Mubarak brother/sister!
Posted by POPOO5560 2 years ago
POPOO5560
Con you forgot one thing... to surah 4:89

pro continue the verse 90:

4:89
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

90
Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace),*** or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. ***If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: ***Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).***

So the context talking about poeple who leave Islam and fighting the Muslims, but if they stop, you should also stop fighting. what the problem there?
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
theunionforever61imsmarterthanyou98Tied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: FF... But Con's formatting. Ugh.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
theunionforever61imsmarterthanyou98Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro could never have won this debate as it is too well known that Islam commits apostates to death sentences, I have known of many turned Christian and Atheist that lived in fear of being discovered before migrating. Their stories and the Koran all agree with Con's arguments. Islam is a religion that has always used Fear to convert others and keep believers captive. The comments by the Yusuf, clearly demonstrate how Islam really works. Pro also forfeited giving a conduct point to Con.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
theunionforever61imsmarterthanyou98Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by neutral 2 years ago
neutral
theunionforever61imsmarterthanyou98Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con is pulling his information off a known hate site. Just on principle, I would have to vote against Con. (Its like reading the KKK on blacks) Beyond that, Con is clearly ignorant of the faith, and, as the hate site does, rips the verses OUT OF CONTEXT. The Muslims were engaged in a war of survival against the Meccan Pagans in a tribal based military system. They could and did (people of the book) make deals with tribes of Jews and Christians. However, if those tribes converted afterward? There is only one reason they would do so ... to go over to the enemy. Better to kill them than aid your enemy, who, BTW, was busy killing Muslim tribes for the same reason. Individual apostates undermined the war effort. These are verses meant for WAR, not for everyday life. Which might be why you see them in Pak-Af and Sudan, but not in Indonesia. Northern Nigeria (tribal) and not in Turkey. Context matter, just not to bigots.
Vote Placed by TF2PRO 2 years ago
TF2PRO
theunionforever61imsmarterthanyou98Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro FF.