The Instigator
ndasa
Pro (for)
Losing
30 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Winning
34 Points

Islam does not resrict women.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/17/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,195 times Debate No: 5047
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (15)

 

ndasa

Pro

The hijab, the main reason people think islam oppresses women, is a personal coice, and is meant to liberate them from men who look at them and judge them based on physical appearance. So, by wearing a hijab they free themselves from that form of opression. In the western society, many people do end up with unfair treatment based on their looks. Also, nowhere in the quran does it actually say that you MUST cover yourself, it is just what the propheets wives did. Islam simply sugests that you dress modestly, and i'm sure no religion does not wish you dress decently.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

Islam, unfortunately, restricts a large number of people, be they women or men, muslim themselves or not.

re´┐Żstrict (ri strikt′)

transitive verb

to keep within certain limits; put certain limitations on; confine

The very existence of Islam, for example, prevents any aspiring female (or male) cartoonists in certain European countries from depicting anyone who looks vaguely like the Prophet Muhammed in an unfavorable light. This would not be the case were it not for Islam. It also restricted the owners of the World Trade Center, probably some of whom were female shareholders, from remaining in possession of an intact set of towers- all the evidence indicates were it not for Islam this restriction would have been lifted, indeed, it would never have been enforced by creative use of aircraft.

As for more intended restrictions, of course, there are still several, some of which you think you have addressed. Islam restricts its followers from eating pork. This applies, as it happens, to women, therefore contradicting your position.

"
The hijab, the main reason people think islam oppresses women, is a personal coice, and is meant to liberate them from men who look at them and judge them based on physical appearance."

It may indeed be a personal choice- incited by Islam. Not all restrictions have to be external, if you impose a restriction on yourself because of a religion, the restriction was caused in part by the religion. Also, unfortunately, if it is indeed meant to do as you describe, that's frankly stupid. It won't work. The hijab makes one's physical appearance MUCH MORE DISTINCT from men, and therefore makes it all the easier for them to judge one based on looks. Now if the hijab applied to both sexes equally, that would be a different story.

"Islam simply sugests that you dress modestly, and i'm sure no religion does not wish you dress decently."

This debate is not about the relative restrictiveness of Islam compared to other religions. Just because other religions recommend similar self-restriction, does not mean it is not a restriction. Also, two other flaws. "Modestly" and "Decently" are two very different terms. I for one consider "Modesty" to be indecent for human beings. Arrogance, not modesty, is the state of mind proper for a member the only species capable of shaping the world to his needs by use of his mind, at least if they are a member with the full abilities implied. Two, were "modestly" and "decently" synonyms, which they are not, I can think of a few religions off the top of my head that do not recommend such dress, indeed they recommend the opposite. Satanism for example. Kahloism. Various subsets of Paganism, especially certain sects of Greek Pagan priestess-prostitutes.Most of which, might I note irrelevantly, have never done nearly so much damage to the world as the religions that preach "modesty", including the Abrahamic religions.
Debate Round No. 1
ndasa

Pro

The 911 catastraphe is not the doings of Islam but of the few people who, unfortunately took it to juctify their horrible attackes. Terroism is not cuased by islam, terrorism is caused by unjust people, and is therefore a entirely differnt arguement.
"The very existence of Islam, for example, prevents any aspiring female (or male) cartoonists in certain European countries from depicting anyone who looks vaguely like the Prophet Muhammed in an unfavorable light."
I meant particularly females. Like there is nothing in Islam that does not allow women certain privlages men can have.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
The 911 catastraphe is not the doings of Islam but of the few people who, unfortunately took it to juctify their horrible attackes"

When a party, philosophy, or religion, affirms the epistemological validity of FAITH, i.e belief without evidence, they are responsible for the consequences. When a party holds a single document as absolute, they are responsible for every phrase in that document, incluing the ones that they didn't really mean, such as "putting infidels to the sword" and such. This means Islam is responsible down at least two roads for the specific philosophy of 9/11 (And, I should note, Christianity, Judaism, certain sects of paganism, Hinduism, Confucianim, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Karl Marx, Immanuel Kant, Hegel, Plato, along with several others I am not aware of or do not recall, are responsible for at least one apiece :D).

"I meant particularly females."

Doesn't matter what you meant. The resolution doesn't say anything about particularly. It is the resolution you are to be defending. Though even were that not the case:

The Prophet said, "A woman should not travel except with a Dhu-Mahram [an Islamic legal category covering a woman's husband and any man she cannot legally marry], and no man may visit her except in the presence of a Dhu-Mahram." (Hadith - Bukhari 3:85)

Also, they are forbidden from entering the mosques on most occasions, and highly restricted the rest of the time:

http://lastisland.wordpress.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ndasa

Pro

My opponent quoted the hadith. The hadith is not the word of god, and should not be taken as such, because it is the word of the prophets, and no human can be right 100% of the time.
Also, about that passage from the Quran. It has nothing to do with this debate, violence in the Quran is a whole other issue.
I thank my oppenent for an intresting debate.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
My opponent quoted the hadith. The hadith is not the word of god, and should not be taken as such, because it is the word of the prophets, and no human can be right 100% of the time."

We don't know the word of "God." He doesn't exist after all, and you can't demonstrate the contrary. The fact remains that the hadith are part of Islam. They contain restrictions, therefore... :P.

"
Also, about that passage from the Quran. It has nothing to do with this debate, violence in the Quran is a whole other issue."

It has something to do with the debate because it invalidated an argument you used to counter my argument which had something to do with the debate. Therefore, false.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
No idea. I haven't forfeited enough to fathom it's nature.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Does your forfeit god require sacrifices, Ragnar? :D
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Odd, account is closed. One and done?

Least no round forfeits :D
Posted by Maya9 8 years ago
Maya9
Islam, much like Christianity, does indeed give people a choice: follow these rules and restrictions or go to hell. Some choice.
Posted by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
Rezzealaux
Oh my bad. I forgot that religion doesn't give a sh*t about what outsiders think about them. And the few that do SHOULD have to suffer the consequences as long as they are not acting to preserve their religion's image. Silence is consent, no?
Posted by PoeJoe 8 years ago
PoeJoe
I meant:

*CON clearly won THE debate..
Posted by PoeJoe 8 years ago
PoeJoe
*reading*

CON clearly won debate in his R1. I'll continue (though PRO seems to have written really short responses).
Posted by ndasa 8 years ago
ndasa
"If Muslims actually gave a d*mn about the bad image that these supposedly few radical fundamentalists are giving their ENTIRE religion, then they would actually stand up for themselves and use their voices"
Unfortunately, not many muslims do care about how the western world percives them, however, the few that do should not have to suffer the concequences.
Posted by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
Rezzealaux
"The 911 catastraphe is not the doings of Islam but of the few people who, unfortunately took it to juctify their horrible attackes. Terroism is not cuased by islam, terrorism is caused by unjust people, and is therefore a entirely differnt arguement."

Apparently this argument is false. If Muslims actually gave a d*mn (and we all know that the world is currently tying the concepts of "terrorism" and "Islam" together) about the bad image that these supposedly few radical fundamentalists are giving their ENTIRE religion, then they would actually stand up for themselves and use their voices, and NOT just sit back and relax as the "silent majority". No, until I start hearing some massive outroar around the world instead of just a few people on the news saying "I don't condone the killing of innocents" WHICH MEANS "I fully support fundamentalists" ANYWAYS, until I see some massive movement by Islam itself to stop their fundamentalists, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to see this type of terrorism as directly linked to Islam.
Posted by Labrat228 8 years ago
Labrat228
Yeah, i think the ads on this site go by the tags for the debate.
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
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Reasons for voting decision: Ragnar_Rahl at least showed that Islam restricted women (by default, due to the resolution) in certain ways, and also had sources to at least defend himself against Pro's attacks.
Vote Placed by Palestine92 6 years ago
Palestine92
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philosphical
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Vote Placed by mahu6000 8 years ago
mahu6000
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Vote Placed by cmrnprk07 8 years ago
cmrnprk07
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Vote Placed by Labrat228 8 years ago
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