The Instigator
WomenForTruth101
Pro (for)
Losing
46 Points
The Contender
JustCallMeTarzan
Con (against)
Winning
49 Points

Islam honours and Respects women

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 18 votes the winner is...
JustCallMeTarzan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/13/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 10,987 times Debate No: 12739
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (30)
Votes (18)

 

WomenForTruth101

Pro

The common belief and misconception of Islam oppressing women is totally out of this world. Sure some Muslim by name countries look down on women, but it has nothing to do with the Islamic faith itself. Furthermore all of these hate/evangelical sites (that can be easily found) purposely try to attach Islam to anything and it is sad most go to them for info about the Muslim religion.
I'll start off by telling this- The first convert to Islam was a woman, the first scholar in Islam was a woman, and the first martyr in Islam was a woman. Muslim women have been leaders thoughout history (such as establishing the world's first university, and being calipha's (femminin version of the word "caliph")).

Women in Islam are given rights to work, inheritance, choose who they marry, divorce. Also husbands are told to make sure women are protected and kept happy. Now let's analyze the scriptures:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have
given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. ( Quran, 4:19)"

The verse explains how a man has to be obedient to his wife. He has to live with her in kindness and honor.

"Do not retain them to harm them so that you transgress limits. He who does this has wronged himself (Quran, 2:231)"

This is saying men can't marry women if they're going to be harmed or hurt in any way or else they'll be sinful.

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do." (Quran, 4:128)

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted." (Quran, 49:13)

"Whoever works righteousness — whether male or female — while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islamic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life (in this world with respect, contentment and lawful provision), and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do (i.e. Paradise in the Hereafter)." (Quran 16:97)

"Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward." (Quran 33:35)

The 3 above verses talks about equality between a man and a woman.

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful". (Quran 33:59)

Notice the "avoid being insulted" part? The Quran tells a woman to cover up and not show off her beauty. This is not oppression, but modesty, what women deserve.

Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

"Paradise lies at the feet of the mother. "

Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and asked,
"O Allahs Apostle! Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?"
The Prophet(PBUH) said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?"
The Prophet(PBUH) said, "Your mother."
The man further said, "Who is next?"
The Prophet(PBUH) said, "Your mother."
The man asked for the fourth time,
"Who is next?" The Prophet(PBUH) said, "Your father."

Obedience to a mother is obedience to God.

"The most perfect believer in the matter of faith is one who has excellent behaviour; and the best among you are those who behave best towards their wives."

"Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim, male and female"

"Assuredly, women are the twin halves of men."
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

Greetings, all. I'm very excited to be debating this topic with (I assume, based on her profile) a Muslim woman. I believe my opponent to have a unique perspective on this topic, although I believe (again, based on her profile) that her status as a Canadian, as opposed to an Afghan, somewhat warps her personal view on this matter.

Let's begin with some clarifications of terms, just so we are clear on what the resolution means...

Respect - to hold in esteem or honor; to show regard or consideration for; to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with; to relate or have reference to. (http://dictionary.reference.com...)

Honor - high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank (http://dictionary.reference.com...).
----- I note there are many definitions for honor at the provided link, but I assume this instance refers to the verb form, which in turn implies this specific definition of the noun form.

*************************************************************************************

A few of my opponent's phrases:

>> "The first convert to Islam was a woman"

Immaterial.

>> "the first scholar in Islam was a woman"

Immaterial.

>> "the first martyr in Islam was a woman"

Especially immaterial in light of the numerous ways for people to meet their doom under Islamic law...

>> "Women in Islam are given rights to work, inheritance, choose who they marry, divorce. Also husbands are told to make sure women are protected and kept happy. Now let's analyze the scriptures:"

Yes, let's analyze them indeed. My opponent has also provided a variety of scriptures that she intends show, inter alia, that women are:
----- To be obeyed by men.
----- Not married if they are "going to be harmed or hurt in any way or else they'll be sinful."
----- Equal to men.
----- Not to insult themselves by wearing revealing clothes.

Let us move through each of these points, and I shall show how Islamic scriptures demean, demerit, and derank women in comparison to men...

*************************************************************************************

1) Obedience.

4:34 - "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other"
4:34 - "As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them"

In short - Men are in charge. If your wife gets uppity, don't sleep with her and beat her a little.

2) Inheritance.

The Qur'an is very clear on this matter. Women only inherit half of what men do.

4:11 - "to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half"
4:176 - "If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females."

In an interesting note, the Qur'an does say that women themselves can be inherited, devolving womanhood to a terminology more suited for property than personhood. There is one catch... they have to be pretty dirty girls.

4:19 - "It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the women (of your deceased kinsmen)... unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness."

3) Whom They Choose to Marry/Divorce.

33:36 - "And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest"

It's "unbecoming" that if Allah and Muhammad decide you should be married that you do not do so. Watch out for a painful doom. Further, under Sharia law, the divorce procedures for men and women are very different. The easiest way for a man to get a divorce is to take his wife out in public and deliver the Talaq (http://en.wikipedia.org...) thee times. He may do this for any reason.

For a woman, however, the only way out of her marriage is through Kuhl' (http://en.wikipedia.org...). The easiest way to understand this concept in English is that the woman must renounce any claim to maintenance (alimony) or palimony. And on top of that, her request for release from marriage is only granted if there is suspected impropriety.

We seem to also have a problem with equality in the number of spouses one is allowed:

4:3 - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"

4) Equality.

It has been said that the only question of whether a woman is equal to a man under Islamic law is a question of what degree she is inferior by. Let's look at some great quotes.

2:282 - "And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women"

A woman's testimony in Islamic jurisprudence is worth exactly half that of a man's.

5:6 - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves... [if] ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"
2:223 - "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will,"

And from the Hadiths:

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'"

5) Protection in Marriage.

My opponent has argued that men are to protect women in marriage... this is true, but as the Hadith reveals, only to the extent that they are another piece of property:

Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves."

Muhammad himself, above, commented that the most important thing a woman brings to a marriage is her vagina.

6) Clothing.

This topic needs to be examined with logic rather than looking to religious texts. There is actually good reason to cover one's face and body in the Middle East - sand. The traditional clothing of even Muslim men (http://2.bp.blogspot.com...) does not appear that much different from a burqa. The problem with Muslim women's clothing only arises when they are forced to wear a hijab and niqab against their will... and in most countries where they are required, casual public contact with a male can get a woman in serious trouble - thus, the hijab and niqab are more of a protective measure than anything else. As such, they neither support nor attack my opponent's position.

*************************************************************************************

Readers, my opponent's position is based on several principles that have been soundly defeated. Particularly in the area of equality, Islam is very clear that women are subservient to men and viewed even by some legal procedures, as little more than property.

It can hardly be said that the rules of Sharia law, the Hadiths, or the Qur'an itself treat women with honor and respect. On the contrary - women are continuously passed around as though they are little more than party favors and slaves.

While some passages in the Quran may indeed say that you should not beat your wives "so that you transgress limits" (2:231)... there is no mention of what these limits are and countless instances of behavior far from "honor" or "respect." The resolution is thus:

NEGATED.
Debate Round No. 1
WomenForTruth101

Pro

I ask my opponent not to claim I've been "defeated" while he has brought verses out of their original meaning and has misinterpreted commentary for the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed. I ask my opponent to take a bit of thought in his work and not copy them from the hundreds of ant-Islam sites available. As well, I'd like him to bring more reliable sources than just Wikipedia.
Before I begin, I want to say there's going to be things we won't be able to agree on. You might say some practices are barbaric while I'll say they're justified and vice-versa. There's always going to be 2 sides of every topic.

Beginning with verse 4:34, I'll have to summarize my points from my co-authored response which is available here: http://answeringchristians.blogspot.com...

1) Men have to provide for their wives and protect them. He's suppose to sacrifice his freedom for her. A husband's money goes towards his wife's needs FIRST before anything else. Even if women have a job, the wife's money is for herself ONLY.All household expenses is mandatory to be paid for by men.
2) Quran verse 4:34 refers to specific women. The verse doesn't say to beat those who aren't listening to their husbands. It speaks of women who are rebellious and acting in an ill-conduct way. Now if we backtrack to verse 4:19, men cannot be harsh to women unless they're openly lewd which means sexually open. A modern day example is Las Vegas. Women are pole dancing in the public, there's people handing out cards with nude women on it. These women are making themselves objects for all to see because they've been blessed with those perfect features. And it's a shame that they insult God and other women by showing it all off.
3) There's 3 steps for a husband to take which MUST be followed in order. By the way it's in a man's nature to not like his wife wear revealing clothes. The first is to talk to her, if she keep's doing it then don't sleep with her and the final step is hit. Now the word here is "daraba" in Arabic which is better understood as hit. Interesting you chose Pickthall's translation that uses the word "scourge". I can tell you that's a wrong translation, he has a few other errors as well. Funny you didn't know that.
4) All scholar's and all commentaries say this is a "light" and "symbolic" tap meant for humiliating. It's usuallly said to be done by a toothbrush or cloth, anything that doesn't leave a mark.
5) The West leads the world in rapes and harassments of women. Skimpy outfits won't help

The point you brought up is inheritance. I suggest you read the verse in full. There's an excellent article here: http://www.islam101.com...
The last line of the verse says "men's soul's are swayed by greed". However the laws of inheritance have rules on them as well. Again whatever a woman recieves is for herself only while whatever a man recieves is for supporting the family. Women in Islam don't have to work while men do. Also dowries are paid by men to women. So in the end women who don't inherit the same amount as men, still are getting supported. I don't see anything wrong here.

You have totally screwed up verse 4:19. It speaks of women who's husband's have died, brother's of the husbands can't take them in. In pre-Islam that was the case. Men died due to wars or illness, so their brother's would take their wives. Women in Islam are always free to marry whom they want.

You brought up verse 33:36. All it says is follow the messanger and the Quran. So we don't become alcoholics, gamblers, prostitutes or pill munchers. All of which are harmful to society.

As for divorce, that's not true. A man can't divorce his wife for any reason. A great article about marriage and divorce is right here: http://www.religioustolerance.org...
Islam condemns divorce and it should be the last step. Read this verse : 4:35): "If the fear Shiqaq (breach) between the Twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and other from hers, if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation."

Quran 4:21 and 33:7 say marriage is a solemn covenant. 30:21; 7:189 , and 2:187 says that husbands and wives should live together in a comforting and tranquil manner as well as they're both garments for each other.

The next topic you brought up is polygamy. I have no clue why you cut off more than half the verse. If you kept reading verse 4:3 it says God prefers men to marry ONE. Polygamy in islam is a condition, not a rule or a command. If men do take more than one wife, they have to treat them all equally with kindness. Anything less and there's consequences. You should realise that women hundreds of years ago, when their husbands died due to wars and diseases (a woman's body better defends viruses and bacteria), women were incapable of supporting themselves financially and phsically. So polygamy was needed back then
Keep reading and you'll notice how God in the Quran says men are going to face the consequences when taking this route (4:129).
Also Polygamy cannot contradict what is on the marriage contract. The Quran says to honour the contract which is signed during the wedding. If the contract says men cannot take another wife, then they cannot take another wife. Simple as that.

I'll ask my opponent once again to not take verses out of context. You only posted part of 2:282. This verse actually refers to finances, if you read the beginning, this is what it would say: "O Beleivers, when you contract a debt for a fixed term, you should put it in writing..."
The finances refer to dowries, inhertance, salaries/wages etc. I'm a med student and women have more psychological problems than men. And these cases can fall at the wrong time (like if a woman's pregnant). So the Quran call's for 2 women just in case if the woman forgets something. Also take not how the Quran call's for 2 men as well. Here is another great article: http://www.jannah.org...

Quran 5:6 refers to ablution. Please read the full verse. Here is a list of translations: http://islamawakened.com...
Whenever we pray or read the Quran, we clean ourselves.

You quoted Bukhari 6, 301. This hadith breaks off in the middle (again you presented only half of the entire thing). That means this hadth is considered weak. Hadiths are placed in 4 categories: Authentic, Good, Weak and Fabricated.
So it's not considered reliable. Keep in mind the number of narrations is also important. But nontheless we should try to understand to context. All we can tell is 1) This day is Eid and 2) The Prophet is talking about women's menses and how they don't have to pray. Overall it is meant to be takin as a joke and not seriously. I doubt the Prophet Muhammed would insult women, especially on the day of Eid.

We have a similar issue with Bukhari 62:81. I have provided hadiths from the book of "Marriage and Nikah" here: http://www.islamicemirate.com...
Sex by the way is part of marriage. Like I said above men and women are garments for each other. "Your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you and your wife has a right over you." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol.7, No. 127)
Commentary for verse 2:187 by Al-Qurtubi: "She has over him the same right of sexual cohabitation he has over her."

You quoted Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754. Dear opponent, this is commentary by Ibn Tabari. This is not the sayings of Muhammed. Tabari is comparing the situation of the 2. Back before Islam women weren't seen as human. They were seen as useless men-making machines. When Islam came it gave women rights and freedoms to the same level as men. But it took a while. Some women were still dependent on men. Tabari is showing a comparison.

Next point you mentioned is clothing. All I can say is modest dressing is commanded. Muslim women cannot be forced into anything.
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

Readers, my opponent claims I have "brought verses out of their original meaning" and "misinterpreted commentary." Further, she accuses my answers of being copied from "anti-Islam" sites. Ironically, I introduced no text whatsoever that was not from a document of Islam. If these documents support an "anti-Islam stance, that is not my problem.

Also, my opponent claims that there are some topics we will disagree on, stating that I "might say some practices are barbaric while I'll say they're justified and vice-versa." I assure you readers that there are very few practices of Islam I consider justified that Muslims would consider barbaric, while there are many, MANY practices of Islam that the world considers barbaric and Muslims consider "justified." So in this vein, I will seek to find my opponent's "justification" for some of the issues we discuss.

As a side note, introducing "co-authored" responses (http://answeringchristians.blogspot.com...) as a rebuttal is a poor and dishonest debate tactic because it involves far more material than can be reasonably responded to in 8000 characters. Further, referring to full-text articles lets the articles do your work for you. If that was a legitimate debate strategy, both sides would simply post a series of links to rebut the other. As such, I will ignore her sources and focus on her own summations of them (which I DO accept as valid).

Let's begin:

>> "He's [a husband] suppose to sacrifice his freedom for her [a wife]"

I suppose this sort of sacrificial freedom has something to do with the prohibition placed on women concerning talking to non-related males. What freedoms is the man sacrificing, and what benefit do they provide the wife that she would otherwise not be provided? Unless there is a specific example to set this apart, this is not a salient point at all.

>> "Quran verse 4:34 refers to specific women."

That must be the part where it says "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other..." which certainly sounds like ALL men excel above ALL women - not anything about specific women.

>> "The verse [4:34] doesn't say to beat those who aren't listening to their husbands. It speaks of women who are rebellious and acting in an ill-conduct way"

Oh. THESE women. So I suppose that if they get a little rebellious (perhaps seeking to wear jeans in public?), it's OK to begin corporeal punishment? We aren't concerned with the fact that they have done something considered "wrong," we're considered for finding a justification for corporeal punishment, a practice that has long since gone by the wayside as barbaric.

>> "Now if we backtrack to verse 4:19, men cannot be harsh to women unless they're openly lewd which means sexually open. A modern day example is Las Vegas. Women are pole dancing in the public, there's people handing out cards with nude women on it"

So you would say it's perfectly OK to "honor and respect" these women by lightly beating them and refusing to sleep with them?

>> "There's 3 steps for a husband to take which MUST be followed in order... The first is to talk to her, if she keep's doing it then don't sleep with her and the final step is hit."

Again, where is the "honor and respect" shown to a woman by lightly beating her (or hitting, tapping, smacking, etc...)??

>> "All scholar's and all commentaries say this is a "light" and "symbolic" tap meant for humiliating."

Oh I see - you "honor and respect" women by humiliating them.

>> "The West leads the world in rapes and harassments of women. Skimpy outfits won't help"

Completely immaterial. And highly suspect depending on your definition of "harassment."

>> "the laws of inheritance have rules on them as well. Again whatever a woman recieves is for herself only while whatever a man recieves is for supporting the family. Women in Islam don't have to work while men do. Also dowries are paid by men to women. So in the end women who don't inherit the same amount as men, still are getting supported. I don't see anything wrong here."

So when property from parents is divided upon their death, you don't see anything wrong with the male child getting 2/3 of the property and the female child getting 1/3??

>> "You have totally screwed up verse 4:19. It speaks of women who's husband's have died, brother's of the husbands can't take them in."

Unless they are flagrantly lewd... Then they ARE inherited.

>> "You brought up verse 33:36. All it says is follow the messanger and the Quran."

It says: "And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest."

Then 33:37 clarifies that it applies to marriage (and divorce) as well.

>> "A man can't divorce his wife for any reason."

From your own source: "Caliph Umer legitimized this form [the triple Talaq] of divorce as an emergency measure." So... yes, he can. Though it's frowned upon. The wife, however, cannot do so - she has to meet certain standard concerning impropriety in the marriage.

>> "If men do take more than one wife, they have to treat them all equally with kindness. Anything less and there's consequences."

That's not the issue - the issue is of equality. How many husbands can a woman take?

>> "I'll ask my opponent once again to not take verses out of context. You only posted part of 2:282. This verse actually refers to finances..."

I think you need to reread the verse. Sure it is talking about finances, but then it very clearly states that you must have as witnesses to a contract two men, or else, one man and two women. Again - the issue has nothing to do with finances, but whether or not a woman's word is equal to a man's.

>> "I'm a med student and women have more psychological problems than men. And these cases can fall at the wrong time (like if a woman's pregnant). So the Quran call's for 2 women just in case if the woman forgets something."

Right. Because the woman's memory is inherently inferior to men's? Despite this article (http://www.britannica.com...) that says, "Women have the upper hand in storing and recalling verbal episodic memories" - Men do better at spatial memory, but then again, a contract is more like a verbal form of storage than a spatial one. Also, from (http://news.softpedia.com...), "Women clearly outperformed men in verbal episodic memory tasks, like remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events."

>> "Quran 5:6 refers to ablution. Please read the full verse."

I suppose that in the course of praying, you quite often come into contact with women - so much that it's mentioned specifically as an instance where you need to wash.

>> "I doubt the Prophet Muhammed would insult women, especially on the day of Eid."

So while not being insulting... the Prophet Muhammed honors and respects women by joking disparagingly about their genitalia...

>> "Back before Islam women weren't seen as human. They were seen as useless men-making machines."

This is actually VERY incorrect. I encourage you to take a course in the beliefs of ancient world peoples. Before Islam and Judaism, the focus was on GODDESS worship, not GOD worship. Females were sacred. Not property.

>> "When Islam came it gave women rights and freedoms to the same level as men."

See divorce, social interactions, inheritance, testimony, movement, property ownership... the list goes on...

***********************************************************************************

NEGATED
Debate Round No. 2
WomenForTruth101

Pro

I will ask my opponent to analyze further what he brings. He claims he has not copied from anti-Islam sites yet his material reflect. I mean the out-of-context verses? The unreliable hadiths? It's quite obvious to me he did not come up with his work on his own. Also It amazes me he refuses to recogize his errors, and includes examples that are in no way related to the debate. Obvious red herrings.

Dear opponent, If i have a response to something, and it is too big to bring in here, should I not give a summary and then link to it? I fail to see what's so dishonest here.

I don't know what speaking to non-related males has to do with anything. A clear sign of ignorance. A husband has to spend his wealth and time making sure his wife has basic needs. He has to provide housing and food while a wife's wealth is for herself only. We see here women having more freedom with money.
Husbands are to protect their wives. Since the Quran doesn't really specify, this protection can inlcude a variety of things. We see here a husband has to make sure his wife is safe before he can look after his freedoms.

Please, please read verses in FULL context. 4:34 speaks of the duties of men, then it speaks of "those women...". Now "those" women refer to the ladies whom I already mentioned. The verse has 2 parts to it. Please do not cancel anything out.
Agan you have brought clear signs of ignorance. Wearing "jeans" is not related to our debate. Please refrain from such far fetched examples.

Opponent do not mix up what I've said. I spoke about women being honoured and gave verses/hadiths to support. What you've given concentrates on women who have decided to shed their liberty. Meaning you're giving info about specific women that do not deserve respect and attempted to tie it in with what I said. No, there's 2 types of women here. One deserve's respect the other does not. Don't mix them up in an attempt to subjugate ALL Muslim women. I hope I don't have to keep showing you the difference, do I?

One of the rules of why Muslim women have to dress properly is to avoid harassment. Provocative clothing doesn't shield a person from being raped or sexually assaulted. Yeah I don't see how this is "immaterial".

I guess you didn't read my response to inheritance properly. The reasons behind it. I'm not gonna re-state what I said again.

Yes 33:37 applies to marriage. And the Prophet didn't do anything to restrict women of their rights. He listened to them, he cooked and cleaned. What's wrong here?

For divorce, what does the term "emergency measure" mean to you? Again it speaks not of divorcing women for no reason.

I ask my opponent to revise what I said about polygamy. I don't want to re-state what I said. Equality isn't even the issue here.

Women in Islam are allowed to work and take part in daily life. BUT that took a while. It didn't immediately happe. It took time. Many women still stayed at home. And since this deals with finances, at that time women weren't very familiar with financial transactions. That's why 2 were ordered and what I wrote before doesn't cancel out. Women do suffer from psychological problems more than men. AND it's possible for women to forget make an error.

5:6 speaks of ablution. In this context it spoke of sexual intercourse.

Again, that hadith is BROKEN up. It's NOT relaible. Please do not make up your own interpretations (though I know it's hard).

Pre-Arabia, women were not seen as anything. Islam changed that. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org...
JustCallMeTarzan

Con

The tone of my opponent's argument switches to a plea as she enters the third round. Then she accuses me of introducing obvious errors (which are at best her opinion), plagiarizing from anti-Islam sites (without any sort of proof), and arguing with red herrings (the only example of which is the jeans comment)....

Let's begin again - we have our work cut out for us...

>> "I don't know what speaking to non-related males has to do with anything. A clear sign of ignorance"

Purdah (loosely, curtain) is an the Islamic concept concerning women's separation from men. It holds, among other things, that women should not associate with men they are not related to. Further, the interesting thing is that this concept is enforced against women even though it is actually Zoroastrian in origin, not Muslim (http://www.islamfortoday.com...)

And I encourage you to consider what Islamic "freedoms" are doing in Afghanistan... the UN certainly did. They weren't pleased: http://www.unhchr.ch...

>> "4:34 speaks of the duties of men, then it speaks of "those women...". Now "those" women refer to the ladies whom I already mentioned. The verse has 2 parts to it. Please do not cancel anything out."

4:34 says in its entirety: " The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme. "

This has usually been translated in a way that makes it clear that these "certain qualities" that make them the bread earners make men superior to women. Regardless of how my opponent thinks the verse should read, the reality of the situation is that it gives husbands (as a last resort) permission to beat their wives.

>> "What you've given concentrates on women who have decided to shed their liberty. Meaning you're giving info about specific women that do not deserve respect and attempted to tie it in with what I said."

I'm not following you... perhaps you can clarify just when exactly it is that a woman stops being a person and becomes property to be inherited...

>> "One of the rules of why Muslim women have to dress properly is to avoid harassment. Provocative clothing doesn't shield a person from being raped or sexually assaulted"

You do realize these two statements are contradictory...

>> "For divorce, what does the term "emergency measure" mean to you? Again it speaks not of divorcing women for no reason."

In theory, maybe. In practice?

>> "I ask my opponent to revise what I said about polygamy. I don't want to re-state what I said. Equality isn't even the issue here."

Are you kidding? Polygamy is allowed, but Polyandry is not. Sounds like an issue of equality to me.

>> "And since this deals with finances, at that time women weren't very familiar with financial transactions. That's why 2 were ordered and what I wrote before doesn't cancel out."

So your defense to the fact that a woman's word is legally worth half what a man's is.... is to say that women were subjugated and not allowed to participate in finances, so they knew half as much about them...

>> " Women do suffer from psychological problems more than men."

Evidence? The link I posted above states that for this type of psychological phenomenon, women are SUPERIOR to men.

>> "AND it's possible for women to forget make an error"

Right... they must make errors at a rate double that of men, of course. Why else would the Quran say two are needed?

>> "Pre-Arabia, women were not seen as anything. Islam changed that. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org...;

You do realize that the change from this article was a change that happened long after the switch from goddess to god worship? Islam is in no way responsible for the betterment of women. They were MUCH better off before the 600's.

**********************************************************************************

My opponent has spent this debate picking at little details of translation while ignoring the larger issues at hand. For example, while nitpicking over whether or not 4:34 means to scourge or a ""light" and "symbolic" tap meant for humiliating," my opponent misses the fact that her argument would deliver the notion that Islam honors and respects women by lightly and symbolically tapping them for the purpose of humiliation.

Readers... I have, in this fashion, let my opponent destroy her own argument. She has failed to respond to several points, including the justness of letting a male child take 2/3 of the inheritance over the female child's 1/3, as well as the Prophet Muhammad himself making snide jokes about vaginas.

Lastly, she completely incomprehensibly holds that "Islam... gave women rights and freedoms to the same level as men." A cursory glance at Sharia law shows this is not the case.

Readers, the debate is clear.

NEGATED.
Debate Round No. 3
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Fathu 4 years ago
Fathu
Fine, reading the various comments and the debate... I wish to question here, in what ways the western society have uplifted women....... what according to them is respect and honour for women?
Western talk of women's liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. western society has actually degraded women to the status of concubines mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers, hidden behind the colourful screen of 'art' and 'culture'.
Posted by sabir 4 years ago
sabir
Please see this excellent video demonstrating Womens right in Islam - http://www.youtube.com...
Posted by devinni01841 6 years ago
devinni01841
Really?? why would you even say that????

Shakes fist in anger
Posted by sadolite 6 years ago
sadolite
This is where we are headed as a nation
Posted by InsertNameHere 6 years ago
InsertNameHere
The only Ayatollah I supported in Iran is now dead. :(
Posted by Muslim 6 years ago
Muslim
Whatever Iran is going through, I think its best we leave to them to determine their outcome. In 1979, they had the Revolution against the Shah because he was corrupted. Now they're (the people of Iran) are facing somewhat of the same corruption.

But I believe that if America keeps the sanctions and isolates Iran, the people of Iran will side with their leaders. Free Trade and Non-interventionism is what I advocate for.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 6 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
Lol @ INH...

Imagine that... maybe they got tired of being honored and respected...
Posted by InsertNameHere 6 years ago
InsertNameHere
Not to go off-topic...again, but Iran seems to be on the brink of revolution. More and more people are becoming dissatisfied with the ruling Ayatollahs.
Posted by Muslim 6 years ago
Muslim
But lets make sure we stay on the topic of "Islam honours and Respects women" and the debate between Pro vs Con.
Posted by Muslim 6 years ago
Muslim
INH you are right with regards to more migration and higher birthrates as to factors influencing the rise in population, however the numbers of Muslims is still rising. There have been individuals who may have left the religion, but those entering account for that.

"Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000, meaning that around one in five people follow Islam. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity" (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)"

The country with the most Muslims in the world isn't in the Middle East, but in fact Indonesia.

As for Sadolite comments, as Libertarian I advocate for a non-interventionist policy in the Middle East. These dictators and radicals (who are limited in number) are heavily backed by American Government. As Ron Paul eloquently states "There's nobody in this world that could possibly attack us today... I mean, we could defend this country with a few good submarines. If anybody dared touch us we could wipe any country off of the face of the earth within hours. And here we are, so intimidated and so insecure and we're acting like such bullies that we have to attack third-world nations that have no military and have no weapon."

The Middle East needs a revolution, the people want it. But their Government limits their freedom. This is not Islam, rather the Culturalization of Islam by these Arab Rulers.
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