The Instigator
rwebberc
Con (against)
Winning
52 Points
The Contender
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
24 Points

Islam is THE main threat to liberty and life and Judeo-Christianity is key to PRESERVING BOTH: Rnd 2

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,200 times Debate No: 1280
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (35)
Votes (24)

 

rwebberc

Con

Here we go again, our last debate was cut short so I would like to give you another shot at proving your point using the resolve you provided last time.

First off: Judeo-Chrisitianity

Christianity was an influential force behind the most horrific event of the last 100 years: The Holocaust. I'm not blaming the Holocaust on Christianity, as there were many factors contributing to the rise of Nazism as well as their philosophy. However, Martin Luther's (the founder of Protestantism) "On the Jews and Their Lies" has been widely acknowledged by many scholars, including Professor Robert Michael, Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth, and Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford, as one of the most influential texts behind Nazi ideology. The Nazis even celebrated a holiday known as Luthertag, or Luther Day. Consider this quote by Hitler: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." (http://en.wikipedia.org...). Clearly Judeo-Christianity can be corrupted just as easily as Islam in order to justify violence and hatred.

Liberty is defined by Merriam Webster as "The power to do as one pleases."
In the United States today, the largest opponent to gay marriage is the religious right. Christian leaders, such as James Dobson in his book Marriage Under Fire, argue that to allow homosexuals to marry would be against Biblical teachings. Christianity continues to be used to restrict the liberties of those deemed to be against it.

Islam:

The common debate is that Islam supports terrorism and that terrorists are practicers of true Islam. But nothing will be solved by searching for "true Islam" or quoting the Quran. The Quran is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern strictures against unbelievers. Trying to quote it usually tells us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.

The most pre-eminent scholar on Islam and the Middle East, Bernard Lewis has argued that religious minorities have historically fared better under Muslim societies than Christian ones (http://www.theatlantic.com...). Two of the largest Muslim countries in the world, Pakistan and Bangladesh, have mixed Islam and modernity with some success. While both countries are impoverished, both have voted a woman into power as prime minister, before most Western countries have done so. Turkey, the sixth largest Muslim country in the world, is a flawed but functioning secular democracy and a close ally of the West (being a member of NATO).

It is only once you get to the Middle East region where you start seeing major problems with Muslim countries. This is the land of suicide bombers, flag-burners and fiery mullahs. These recent hotbeds are a result of the political situations of the last several decades, not Islam. To blame Islam for the geopolitical problems of is simplistic. As Solarman's pal GW puts it: "Islam is peace."

I have made my arguments using undisputable facts and arguments from authority backed up by scholarly, peer reviewed sources. I challenge you to do the same, Solarman.
Solarman1969

Pro

Hello rwebberc

You make some valid points here.

People saying they were Christians, over the past 2000 years, certainly in history have done terrible things to eachother and to other non-Christian and yes, the jews.

your first point here is somehwat valid

Christianity was an influential force behind the most horrific event of the last 100 years: The Holocaust. I'm not blaming the Holocaust on Christianity, as there were many factors contributing to the rise of Nazism as well as their philosophy. However, Martin Luther's (the founder of Protestantism) "On the Jews and Their Lies" has been widely acknowledged by many scholars, including Professor Robert Michael, Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth, and Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford, as one of the most influential texts behind Nazi ideology.

HOWEVER, the main thrust of the National Socialists was NOT merely anti-semitic, and the main reason why Hitler was able to rally the German people to the Nazi/SS cause was actually RACIAL in nature, based on the MASTER RACE of some blond haired blue eyed type people being superior and needing to dominate over the rest of the world.

CASE in POINT :

Who were Hitlers enemies ? England and the USA- both OVERWHELMINGLY CHRISTIAN nations

It was our MORALITY and PERSEVERANCE , based on our Judeo-Christian values, that ended up ending this horrible threat AND

the Japanese threat- are you going to also say that was Christian based? Hmmmmm? or are you going to agree that ALSO the Japanese were primarily RACISTS, and believed the true JAPANESE RACE was superior to the Chinese, Pacific Islander, Korean, and other races who they were BRUTALLY MURDERING.

these were RACIST evil empires from hell, not CHRISTIAN.

Furthermore, the ISLAMIC types ALLIED THEMSELVES WITH THE AXIS POWERS

your summary point 1 ---------------------

Clearly Judeo-Christianity can be corrupted just as easily as Islam in order to justify violence and hatred.

Ok, first of all list Jewish cases of corruption and murder and brutal conquest in history _______________________________________________

Second, I will point out that , although Christ has been used as an excuse to brutally suppress, it is NOT HIS WORDS OR TEACHINGS that validated this behavior- this is NOT TRUE AT ALL for muhammed. Nearly everything he had to say was like "conquer with force the christians and jews, take their women as booty, and subjugate them under Allah"

there are SO MANY EXAMPLES of this, that are UNDENIABLE, that is it obvious to folks like me who have studied this in detail totally know why there are all these suidical murderous insane antisemitic muslims- it is VERY CLEAR from Muhmammed, their hero, that this is correct and perfect muslim behavior.

why dont we see Jewish and Christian suicide bombers and psycho killers?

because Christ didnt teach people to kill - or to hate the Jews- he WAS THE KING of the JEWS!

in fact the Christian believes far from a reward for killing oneself and 72 virgins (I wont even get into how sick and preverted that is) it is a cardinal sin to do so, and the worst possible thing you can do.

Martin Luther was a scumbag Jew hater in my opinion- his religious fervor caused thousands of peasants to be killed and he was nothing special

it was not HE who has so reformed Christianity- it is CHRIST HIMSELF.

CHRIST was incredibly peaceful and thoughtful and NICE.

Sooner or later , Christianity wa bound to mellow out as the world got civilized and it came under higher and higher scrutiny.

Jewish folks have never been anything BUT peaceful and diligelent-

As Islam comes under more and more focus, what is happening is it is reveting to its roots, its founder, Muhammed, who was a terrible EVIL insane megalomaniac.

if you dare to say something like this in an Islamic place, a mob will stone you to death, rip your body to shreds, cheer about it, and then feed it to dogs (thats if your lucky)

think Im kidding? how many people (mostly muslims) were killed over the cartoons?

So conversely, what happens when Christ is attacked? the Christian is calm, mellow and takes it in stride.

Simply, thats because the Christian knows Christ wasnt any of those bad things

A muslim, deep in his heart , does NOT want the truth revealed. That is why they KILL when the prophet is "insulted"

YOUR NEXT POINT

Liberty is defined by Merriam Webster as "The power to do as one pleases."
In the United States today, the largest opponent to gay marriage is the religious right. Christian leaders, such as James Dobson in his book Marriage Under Fire, argue that to allow homosexuals to marry would be against Biblical teachings. Christianity continues to be used to restrict the liberties of those deemed to be against it.

Marriage is defined as one man and one woman.

We already have domestic parterships and civil unions for gays, with all the same rights as married couples.

there is no disrimination aginst gays- they prosper and thrive. beleive me i live in SF - they are PROSPEROUS here and RUN THE CITY.

What the gay activists are trying to do is SHOVE THIS DOWN THE THROAT OF THE CHURCH

The God of the bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and discourages it. If you are gay, and dont like that fact, dont be a Jew or Christian. or just accept the fact that some bible thumpers will think you are living in sin- BIG DEAL! Im straight and Im sure they think ALL KINDS of things I do are sinful - so f***ing what???

Christ, as far as I know, doesnt have much to say on the subject. He was a prettty down to earth accepting kinda guy that hung out with transients and prostitutes to show they were human beings too worthy of respect.

your next point ----------------------

Islam:

The common debate is that Islam supports terrorism and that terrorists are practicers of true Islam. But nothing will be solved by searching for "true Islam" or quoting the Quran

this is plain and simple , WRONG

you have no idea what youre talking about and need to read up for a few months or years before you will even have a clue.

here, once again, is a good reference, www.prophetofdoom.net

Please feel free to visit any one of my Islam debates to get more detailed arguments

SO MY SUMMARY

(1) Christianity is a GREAT THING for people to believe in . Christ was a stellar human being , and to follow him most likely means you are a good person and will do fine. Christ will continue to be the center of life for hundreds of millions forever.

(2) Judaism is one of the world oldest religions and has survived all these millenia and persecution because they beleive that they are the people of the book , the chosen ones. Being Jewish is totally fine and dandy and most of my good friends are Jews. It is challenging and scholarly.

(3) Islam is a totally different story.

FIRST: There are alot of good, nice muslims.

However, the main thrust of Islam right now is Sharia, conquest through force, desire to take over societies and establish a worldwide caliphate.

Muhammed was a horrible person and to make him your savior will surely lead to trouble in your spiritual life.

the foundations of Islam, the Qu'ran , Hadiths and Suras, etc. are filled with hateful violent phrases , and where not, try and plagarize the bible and try to make Muhammed the true guy, rather than Christ.

Violence, suicide bombing, inciting of hatred against others, and the like are already illegal in the free world, and should not be tolerated.

Mosques should not be allowed to be built. Islamic meetings and organizations should be closely watched by the Feds.

Christianity , Judaism and other strong belefs are going to be necessary to counter ISLAM.
Debate Round No. 1
rwebberc

Con

Thanks for taking up the debate Solarman, I always look forward to your arguments.

I agree with your statement that Hitler and the Nazis were not following Christ's teachings. However, your argument when you posted this resolve was that Judeo-Christianity is the "key to preserving" liberty and life. It really doesn't matter whether or not Christ would have approved of their actions, these people were clearly influenced by a strong sense of identity that was tied to their faith, as well as being motivated by one of the most celebrated leaders in Christian tradition. I'm not trying to bash Christianity, my point is that it can be used to take away people's liberties, which seems paradoxical in this case.

"Who were Hitlers enemies ? England and the USA- both OVERWHELMINGLY CHRISTIAN nations"

You forgot the Soviet Union, who rounded out the Big Three. They were an officially secular nation who supported atheist ideology. But this has no more merit than the fact that Germany was also a Christian nation. What made this situation relevant was the fact that the Nazis used Christianity to support their regime.

"Ok, first of all list Jewish cases of corruption and murder and brutal conquest in history"

I will admit that there are few instances of Jews causing mass havoc against another people. However, I don't know that you can attribute that to Judaism itself. History has always been a case of tyranny of the majority, and the Jews have never comprised a majority anywhere. That is, except for Israel, a nation which has been criticized for its military actions in the past. But Jews account for only 13 million people, a far cry from the 1.61 billion Muslims, or the 2.1 billion Christians in the world. Nevertheless, there have certainly been Jewish terrorists in the past, such as Baruch Goldstein, who opened fire on a crowded mosque at the Cave of Patriarchs Massacre, killing 29 Muslims and injuring 150. Other instances, such as the assassination of British politician Walter Guinness, show that Jewish people, like all people, are not impervious to violence in the name of a cause they believe in, no matter how twisted their logic may be.
"When the bier of anyone passeth by thee, whether Jew, Christian or Muslim, rise to thy feet.
"Second, I will point out that , although Christ has been used as an excuse to brutally suppress, it is NOT HIS WORDS OR TEACHINGS that validated this behavior- this is NOT TRUE AT ALL for muhammed. Nearly everything he had to say was like "conquer with force the christians and jews, take their women as booty, and subjugate them under Allah"

I asked that this argument be made based on facts rather than opinions, loaded language, or generalizations. Interestingly enough, a simple Google search of this quote showed that it is nowhere to be found in the Quran. Here are a few sample quotes by Muhammad: "No person hath drunk a better draught than that of anger which he hath swallowed for God's sake"; ""The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr"; "The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self"; "The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie."; "When the bier of anyone passeth by thee, whether Jew, Christian or Muslim, rise to thy feet."; "Kindness is a mark of faith: and whoever hath not kindness hath not faith." Like I said before, the Quran is a vast book full of all kinds of beautiful literature, and yes, some of it is not pleasant. But the same holds true for the Bible, and if you don't believe me then you haven't read it carefully enough.

"its founder, Muhammed, who was a terrible EVIL insane megalomaniac"

Honestly, you have to provide some sort of evidence for these claims. I have heard countless Islamophobes call Muhammad a thief and a rapist, but I haven't seen any scholarly or peer-reviewed sources to back up these claims, just hearsay.

"Marriage is defined as one man and one woman."

According to whom? A marriage is a government by government definition which recognizes two people as having entered into a partnership with certain expectations and benefits. Civil unions and domestic partnerships are inventions by people who don't want gays to have the same rights that they have.

"there is no disrimination aginst gays"

This is simply untrue. According to the FBI, the last year that hate crimes were tallied there were nearly 1,300 hate crimes against homosexuals reported, that's about as many as there were anti-Jewish hate crimes. (http://www.fbi.gov...) Are you going to tell me that there is no discrimination against Jews? I have a feeling that would be just as difficult a point to prove. In a Gallup poll conducted in 2003, 49% of Americans said that homosexuality was not an acceptable lifestyle (http://www.usatoday.com...). I'd like to hear you rationale for saying that anti-gay discrimination doesn't exist.

You say that I don't understand your arguments against Islam and refuse to provide any, so I will use your arguments from a previous debate.

"First I am going to challenge you on your savior, Muhammed (may he rot in purgatory forever!)

Do you worship him?

Is he your savior?

If so, why do you follow a murderous tyrant who spent his life raping, killing , stealing, torturing, and pretty much any other awful subhuman thing you can think of?"

I have already shown that the teachings of Muhammad are teachings of compassion and self-restraint. You, on the other hand, have made no attempt at proving your poiints regarding your slandering of Muhammad. If you really knew anything about Islam, you would know that Muslims do not worship Muhammad or see him as their savior. Muhammad is seen as a prophet and a messenger of God.

"they (the terrorists)are the "good Muslims""

This is your second point in your argument against mjvoss. Clearly you do view this as a main argument as to why Islam is a threat. I have already shown why this point is not valid. Islamic terrorism is something which has its roots in the Arab world of the 1970's. Every single Arab country, with the exception of the UAE and Qatar, is less free than it was 30 years ago. Look at Iran, Iraq, Egypt, or Lebanon. There are very few countries in the world that can say that. This has provided a platform for young Arabs who have been jaded by their respective regimes to rebel. Sayyid Qutub and his radical form of fundamentalism has given promises of redemption and salvation to thousands of Arabs who would otherwise have no hope. Your oversimplification of this dire situation is truly disturbing.

Finally, in our last round you said this: "the main thrust of Islam right now is Sharia, conquest through force, desire to take over societies and establish a worldwide caliphate."

How can you justify this statement when the three largest Muslim countries in the world are run by largely secular governments? You must provide some sort of EVIDENCE or FACTS for a statement such as this.

Take a look at the Five Pillars of Islam and show me which one is going to lead to worldwide chaos. The burden of proof is on you to show some sort of impending threat that is provided by the religion of Islam, not by political tension in the Arab world. And once again, you must prove how Judeo-Christianity is the only way to save us from this supposed threat, rather than political stability.
Solarman1969

Pro

Well first of all, I am GLAD to hear you are not trying to BASH our faithful Christian and Jewish Brethren

I will say that no Christian or Jew that I KNOW is trying to take away people's liberties

your quote

"Christianity, my point is that it can be used to take away people's liberties, which seems paradoxical in this case."

name ONE RIGHT that our good Christian folks are trying to TAKE AWAY (other than maybe to horribly murder babies )

your next point

"Who were Hitlers enemies ? England and the USA- both OVERWHELMINGLY CHRISTIAN nations"

You forgot the Soviet Union, who rounded out the Big Three. They were an officially secular nation who supported atheist ideology. But this has no more merit than the fact that Germany was also a Christian nation. What made this situation relevant was the fact that the Nazis used Christianity to support their regime.

the Soviets were ATTACKED by Hitler

and you are WRONG- the Germans did NOT use Christianity, but rather NATIONALISM and RACISM as their HIDEOUS rallying cries- learn from history

Your next points about JEWS are rambling at best , incoherent at worst, NO, actually equivocating at WORST

and then you APOLOGIZE for MUHAMMED AND HIS EVIL

asked that this argument be made based on facts rather than opinions, loaded language, or generalizations. Interestingly enough, a simple Google search of this quote showed that it is nowhere to be found in the Quran. Here are a few sample quotes by Muhammad: "No person hath drunk a better draught than that of anger which he hath swallowed for God's sake"; ""The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr"; "The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self"; "The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie."; "When the bier of anyone passeth by thee, whether Jew, Christian or Muslim, rise to thy feet."; "Kindness is a mark of faith: and whoever hath not kindness hath not faith." Like I said before, the Quran is a vast book full of all kinds of beautiful literature, and yes, some of it is not pleasant. But the same holds true for the Bible, and if you don't believe me then you haven't read it carefully enough.

Ha ha ha

once again, have the GUTS to read www.prophetofdoom.net- READ the terrorism timeline, read about the thousands of lives ended and ruined by fools who thougt they were doing "Allahs will" after being instructed by dastardly mullahs to MURDER INNOCENTS in COLD BLOOD

Hey- young kid - I HAVE READ the Qu-ran, AND Hadits and Surahs in their entirety

"its founder, Muhammed, who was a terrible EVIL insane megalomaniac"

Honestly, you have to provide some sort of evidence for these claims. I have heard countless Islamophobes call Muhammad a thief and a rapist, but I haven't seen any scholarly or peer-reviewed sources to back up these claims, just hearsay

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT

I JUST CHALLENGED ONE MUSLIM ADULT ON THIS SITE TO A DEBATE ON MUHMMAmED AND HIS AWFUL LIFE- MAYBE THAT WILL ENLIGHTEN YOU (if Mufadah has the GUTS to take me up on it)

your next juvenile point

"Marriage is defined as one man and one woman."

According to whom? A marriage is a government by government definition which recognizes two people as having entered into a partnership with certain expectations and benefits. Civil unions and domestic partnerships are inventions by people who don't want gays to have the same rights that they have.

Oh please!

Please respond to MY argument that the gay activists just want to STICK IT to the church

thats all this "gay marriage " thing is about

now more GAY STUFF FROM YOU

"there is no disrimination aginst gays"

This is simply untrue. According to the FBI, the last year that hate crimes were tallied there were nearly 1,300 hate crimes against homosexuals reported, that's about as many as there were anti-Jewish hate crimes. (http://www.fbi.gov......) Are you going to tell me that there is no discrimination against Jews? I have a feeling that would be just as difficult a point to prove. In a Gallup poll conducted in 2003, 49% of Americans said that homosexuality was not an acceptable lifestyle (http://www.usatoday.com......). I'd like to hear you rationale for saying that anti-gay discrimination doesn't exist.

Oh Please!

Come to San Francisco, honey!

tell me gays are biased against here

this is more democrat based BS

then you revert back to Islam and the EVIL ONE

I have already shown that the teachings of Muhammad are teachings of compassion and self-restraint. You, on the other hand, have made no attempt at proving your poiints regarding your slandering of Muhammad. If you really knew anything about Islam, you would know that Muslims do not worship Muhammad or see him as their savior. Muhammad is seen as a prophet and a messenger of God

Duh!

Once again, why dont you view an upcoming SCHOLARLY DEBATE about Muhammed with an ADULT , who I have challenged

(now , mind you, most muzzies BACK OUT when challenged)

the rest of your points are NONSENSE

Here is your latest from the religionofpeace.com

The Religion of Peace at work in Kenya? Last week, supporters of a
pro-Sharia candidate burned down a church with fifty people inside.

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

1/7/2008 (Spin Boldak, Afghanistan) - A suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills a local border guard.
1/7/2008 (Helmand, Afghanistan) - Taliban militants kill four Afghans with a roadside bombing.
1/6/2008 (Wana, Pakistan) - Eight tribal leaders are killed in two separate shooting attacks by Uzbeki Islamic extremists.
1/6/2008 (Baghdad, Iraq) - A Fedayeen suicide bomber attacks an Iraqi celebration of national unity, killing eleven innocent people.
1/6/2008 (Muqdadiya, Iraq) - Islamic radicals kidnap and behead four people, tossing their heads out on a highway.
1/6/2008 (Baghdad, Iraq) - A Jihad car bombing kills three people and injrues sixteen others.

so please list me the last killings by Christians or Jews or Hindus, or Buddhists, or others in the last week, kid.

SOLARMAN

what do you think is Craig Winn's
Debate Round No. 2
rwebberc

Con

Ok Solarman, I asked you to debate me using facts and peer-reviewed sources, but apparently you couldn't find any that supported your arguments. Here's a quote from you in another debate: "Bottom line: a TRUE debate is WON by FACTS, not feelings". Here are a few examples of your "facts" thus far:

"and you are WRONG- the Germans did NOT use Christianity, but rather NATIONALISM and RACISM as their HIDEOUS rallying cries- learn from history"

Here's my fact to counter yours:
"Only when the entire German people become a single community of sacrifice can we expect and hope that Almighty God will help us. The Almighty has never helped a lazy man. He does not help the coward. He does not help a people that cannot help itself.

The principle applies here, help yourselves and Almighty God will not deny you his assistance."

-Adolf Hitler, in a radio broadcast from Berlin on October 3, 1941

"I, for my part, acknowledge another precept which says that man must deal the final blow to those whose downfall is destined by God."

-Adolf Hitler, in an address to the Reichstag, on April 6, 1942.

Next: "once again, have the GUTS to read www.prophetofdoom.net- READ the terrorism timeline"

Here are some interesting, or rather insulting, quotes from prophet of doom and its terrorism timeline.

In 1995, it links the Oklahoma City bombing to Islamic terrorists, with no mention of Timothy McVeigh: "The principle instigators were the Abu Sayyaf Group in the Philippines and Egypt's Islamic Group led by the bind Islamic cleric Sheikh Abdul Rahman and his Pakistani disciple, Ramzi Yousef."
This is absolutely ridiculous. Here is Abu Sayyaf's evaluation on the Council on Foregin Relations website. Notice that there is no mention of the Oklahoma City bombing whatsoever (http://www.cfr.org...).
The timeline attributes "over 95%" of all terrorist attacks in the last 50 years to Muslims, choosing to ignore the secular Tamil Tigers, the worldwide leader in terrorist attacks as well as the inventors of the suicide bomber vest, the leftist FARC in Colombia, as well as the IRA.

Try and defend this quote on the main page of prophet of doom, regarding Virginia Tech shooter Cho Seung Hui: "If any of these things is true, and they all appear to be, the killer was a modern-day incarnation of Muhammad, perpetrating mass murder in the name of Satan and Islam."

There you have it, folks. Indisputable evidence that Muhammad himself was the Virginia Tech killer. Never mind the fact that the shooter compares himself to Jesus Christ in the video he sent out (http://edition.cnn.com...). How do you have the balls to use this website as a source? I'm sure you'll just dismiss me as a "kid", even though I'm only two semesters away from completing my degree in International Politics, while you hold two science degrees that have no relevance in this argument. I'd really like to hear you respond, though.

When I ask you to back up your claims about Muhammad with some sort of evidence you fire back with this gem: "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT". Nice. So much for facts over feelings.

"Please respond to MY argument that the gay activists just want to STICK IT to the church"

Sure, why not. Even though you have yet to respond to any of my arguments. Here is a quote from Christopher Ott, writing in The Progressive, which summarizes the liberal argument for gay marriage: "...you also have to wonder if he and other opponents to equal rights really understand the consequences of the amendments they support. Do they really want gay and lesbian couples separated at the emergency room door in the event of an accident or illness? Do they really think long-term couples should be denied the right to make medical or end-of-life decisions, which married couples take for granted? Do they really think that kids should be denied health coverage by one parent's health insurance because the law treats them as strangers? Do they really think it's fair for gay and lesbian people to pay the same taxes as everyone else, but to be denied the hundreds of rights, benefits and protections of marriage? Do they really think that a gay and lesbian couple that has been together for 50 years does not deserve the protections that non-gay newlyweds enjoy from day one?" Now here is a list of every single group in America which openly opposes the giving of LEGAL STATUS to same-sex relationships (http://en.wikipedia.org...). Note that every single one of them, with the exception of one Jewish group, is Christian.

After I give multiple facts and sources supporting my statement that homosexual discrimination does in fact exist, you reply "Oh Please!

Come to San Francisco, honey!

tell me gays are biased against here"

That's great. I have no idea whether or not gays are discriminated against in SF, and if they're not that would explain why so many of them live there. Once again it supports my point about the tyranny of the majority. But my argument was that it exists and it is relatively widespread, and my facts backed that up. Your argument is apparently that gays aren't discriminated against in San Francisco, and therefore they aren't discriminated against anywhere. Nice fact.

"most muzzies BACK OUT when challenged"

"the rest of your points are NONSENSE"

Nice. Once again, feelings trump facts. Apparently, you and the "muzzies" have more in common than you think. I challenged you to a debate and instead you have thrown out a bunch of propaganda, some right wing talking points, a few opinions, and absolutely no evidence or facts that are backed up by any type of acceptable sources.

But I digress.

"Here is your latest from the religionofpeace.com

The Religion of Peace at work in Kenya? Last week, supporters of a
pro-Sharia candidate burned down a church with fifty people inside."

I'm glad you posted this. Here is another example of why you should stop citing these propaganda sites. Both candidates in the Kenyan election are CHRISTIAN! Is Sharia law a tenent of Anglicanism? If not, then your little news update here doesn't hold water. The reason that church was burned down was because all the worshippers inside were Kikuyu. This is reminiscent of the ethnic tensions ongoing in Sudan, and the genocide that occurred in Rwanda. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com...)

I don't really see much of a need for me to make any more points, as you have yet to respond to any of my main points from previous arguments. Instead of personal attacks, opinions, feelings, unsourced statements, and facts from websites which offer the unqualified creator's personal beliefs, why don't you try responding to my main points with facts from legitimate sources, and arguments which don't lump 1.6 billion people into one or two groups?
Solarman1969

Pro

Well, once again you try and obfuscate the arguments with silly points about me and my style, rather than the debate topic

I don't really see much of a need for me to make any more points, as you have yet to respond to any of my main points from previous arguments. Instead of personal attacks, opinions, feelings, unsourced statements, and facts from websites which offer the unqualified creator's personal beliefs,

Snore.......................

On your point on the Kenya thing being Christian- A LIE -

"Here is another example of why you should stop citing these propaganda sites. Both candidates in the Kenyan election are CHRISTIAN! Is Sharia law a tenent of Anglicanism? If not, then your little news update here doesn't hold water. The reason that church was burned down was because all the worshippers inside were Kikuyu. This is reminiscent of the ethnic tensions ongoing in Sudan, and the genocide that occurred in Rwanda"

read this - which is SHARIA AND MUSLIM TAKEOVER BY FORCE, and THE SOURCE OF HE VIOLENCE

http://eakenya.org...

you , son, are BIASED

let me spell that for you

B I A S E D

and your bias is causing you to think (1) Christianity is dangerous and a threat and (b) Islam is not

Here is a list of over 100 terrorist Islamic clubs - if you have ANY GUTS, why dont you read about each one, and its history and its ties to terror?

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...

Abu Nidal Group
Abu Sayyaf Group
Aden Abyan Islamic Army
Afghan Northern Alliance
Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade
Al-Arifeen
Al-Barq
Al-Fatah
Al-Ittihaad al-Islami
Al-Qaeda
Al-Saiqa
Al-Umar Mujahideen
Allah's Helpers
Allah's Party
Amal Movement
Ansar al-Islam
Ansar al-Sunnah
Arab Liberation Front
Armed Islamic Group
Army of Muhammad
Asbat al-Ansar
Baader-Meinhof Group
Black September
Black Widows
Chechen Rebels
Daughters of the Faith
De Fez
Democratic Front for the Liberatio...
Eritrean Islamic Jihad Movement
Eritrean Liberation Front
Fatah
Fedayeen
Free Aceh Movement
Front for Defenders of Islam
Front for the Liberation of Lebano...
HAMAS
Harkat ul-Ansar
Harkat-ul Jihad al-Islami
Harkat-ul Mujahideen
Handschar Muslim Waffen SS
Hashshashin Assassins
Hezb-ul Mujahideen
Hisba
Hizballah
Islami Chhatra Shibir
Islamic Great East Raiders' Front
Islamic Group
Islamic Intl. Peacekeeping Brigade
Islamic Jihad
Islamic Liberation Organization
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Islamic Salvation Front
Islamic Shashantantra Andolon
Jaish-e-Muhammad
Janjaweed
Jemaah Islamiyah
Kharij
Kosovo Liberation Army
Kurdish Workers Party
Lashkar-e-Jabbar
Lashkar-e-Omar
Lashkar-e-Tayyba
Lord's Resistance Army
Moro Islamic Liberation Front
Mufti Mujahideen
Mujahideen Division Khandaq
Mujahideen-e-Khalq
Muslim Brotherhood
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Palestinian Liberation Organization
Palestinian Popular Struggle Front
Patriotic Union of Kurdistan
Pattani United Liberation Org.
PKK
Polisario Front
Popular Democratic Front for the L...
Popular Front for the Liberation o...
Revolutionary United Front
Riyad us-Saliheyn Brigade
Salafi
Salafia Jihadia
Salah al-Din Brigades
Shamil Basayev Brigades
Students Islamic Movement of India
Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council
Supreme Muslim Council
Taliban
Tawhid and Jihad
Turkey's Special Organization
Ummah Liberation Army
United Tajik Opposition
Ustashi
Uygur Holy War Organization
Wahhabi

PLEASE NAME ME ONE CHRISTIAN OR JEWISH TERRORIST ORGANIZATION ______________

you cant and will come up with some NONSENSE about some pro-life wackos

you try and tie HITLER to Christianity - when the ISLAMISTS were his allies

Mein Kampf
Hitler's Role Model

Excerpt from Prophet of Doom
Chapter 24 - Profitable Prophet Plan
(pages 658-670)

With the prophet's career summarized and his attributes documented, it's time we take a final look at the man who mirrored his character and mission. Only miles and years distinguished Hitler from his mentor.

Der fuhrer's methods for accomplishing his madness were identical to der prophet's. Mein Kampf:676 "Spiritual terror...men must threaten and dominate men by compulsion. Compulsion is only broken by compulsion and terror by terror." On the road to power, compulsion follows seduction. And the lever that coerces compulsion is terror. Hitler simply followed Muhammad's path. Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Mein Kampf:677 "Since our view of life will never share power with another, it cannot co-operate with the existing doctrines it condemns. It is obliged to fight by all available means until the entire world of hostile ideas collapses." Throughout the entirety of the Islamic era we have heard a singular battle cry: Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone." Both men envisioned an eternal battle and total submission.

The Nazis usurped Muhammad's dogma. The recipe of "submit and obey" was perfect for empowering their tyrant. Mein Kampf:679 "The strength of a party lies in the disciplined obedience of the members to follow their leadership. The decisive factors are leadership and discipline. When troops battle one another, the victorious one will be that which is blindly obedient to the Superior Leader." Islam says: Ishaq:601 "The best men launch spears as if they were swords. They peer forward unweariedly. They devote their lives to their Prophet. In hand-to-hand fighting and cavalry attacks they purify themselves with the blood of the infidels. They consider that an act of piety."

Like Muhammad, Hitler seduced men before he coerced them. He made promises but never delivered. Mein Kampf:683 "The Party with its program of twenty-five points is unshakable." Ten of the twenty-five Nazi pillars were financial inducements, bribes if you will. Twelve were control mechanisms. Three were focused on fighting. The following Islamic concepts made Hitler's list in Mein Kampf : "abrogation," "duty," "annulment of treaties," the "confiscation of war booty," profit sharing or "distribution of spoils," the party's cut or "fifth," "conquest," "expulsion of nonbelievers," "alms" or pensions for believers, "Jewish businesses to be looted and divided"

YOU try and sat that my sites, which are incredibly detailed, scholarly and ACCURATE, and dont WHITEWASH Islam , are not up to snuff

" I challenged you to a debate and instead you have thrown out a bunch of propaganda, some right wing talking points, a few opinions, and absolutely no evidence or facts that are backed up by any type of acceptable sources."

NICE TRY, KID

with over 10000 pages , and incredibly detailed research, www.prophetofdoom.net , is probably the best source in the web for REAL information on Islam.

www.yadayahweh.net , Craig Winn's site about his beliefs in Christ and a dissection of the CULTS that exist in Christianity, such as Catholicism and Mormonism, and their histories is also EXCELLENT

you are simply too BIASED to see beyond your PREDETERMINED conclusions

and you put out TRIPE and try and DEMEAN and DISCREDIT ME

that will obviously fly with the little boys and girls on this little site popoluated by know it all high school kids

but us ADULTS know better and can see the TRUTH

Judeo Christianity is key in fighting the PLAGUE and CANCER that Islam is , as it tries to TAKE OVER THE WORLD

the WAR IS ON, and you better think long and hard about WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ON

SOLARMAN
Debate Round No. 3
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by theCall 7 years ago
theCall
Actually, Christianity was not the one that destroy and killed people in the Crusade, it was Catholicsm, so it was not Orthodox or Protestantism, but Catholicsm.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
heres other worthy sites for you to try and call racist and whatever, libs

www.jihadwatch.com
www.religionofpeace.com
www.faithfreedom.org

The WAR is on

you have chosen the ENEMY

prepare to pay the consequences someday for your betrayal
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
gee- another brilliant (suicidal) liberal

Im soooooooooooo impressed by your incredible wit
Posted by Mbalamwezi 9 years ago
Mbalamwezi
Wow, Rwebberc, you really smashed Solarman on this. I'm glad to see someone is showing his sources to be the trash they are. That also explains why Craig Winn uses a fake translation of the Qur'an to prove his points. We're all still waiting for Solarman to start explaining things for himself, instead of just copying chunks of text from racist websites.

I think Solarman's real agenda is to spread Craig Winn's racist zbil as much as possible, like someone who makes copies of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and passes them out on campus as a way to protest immigration. There's something mentally unbalanced about him in that way. It would explain why he never uses his own words to debate.
Posted by rwebberc 9 years ago
rwebberc
Fair enough, I appreciate your candor. I have a few questions, though.

1.If he is not the reincarnation of Muhammad, as the homepage states, then doesn't this strike you as a biased exaggeration, especially when considering that no Islamic literature was found among his belongings or on his computer? The killer mentioned the Columbine shooters and made references to Quentin Tarantino movies, but I don't see anyone blaming Tarantino for this tragedy.
2.I have read it. But that doesn't change the fact that the man whom you and your website described as a "pro-Sharia candidate" is a CHRISTIAN running for office in a CHRISTIAN nation. How do you justify that statement? Unless I am wrong, it would appear to be another biased exaggeration which has little basis in fact.
3.Fair enough, it seems a little contradictory to me, though. Especially considering the claims that Winn is making and his complete lack of background in the subject or recognition by the academic and intellectual community.
4.Fair enough, do you have any evidence or is this a conspiracy theory?
5.Why do you believe that when Winn doesn't cite any sources? I haven't been able to find facts to back up this claim anywhere. The report mentions that McVeigh met Nichols in the Philippines and that Ramzi Yousef and Nichols had been in the Philippines at the same time. That's it. Dana Rohrabacher has been heavily criticized as a conspiracy theorist and no concrete links have ever been made. How can Winn prove that the financing, technical support and staffing came from Muslims when our own government can't even do that? Does he have some groundbreaking new information that he refuses to make public? This once again appears to be a biased exaggeration if not a flat out lie.
6.Then why do you only talk about Judeo-Christianity?
7.Haha, touché.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
1) No. islam inpired? yes.
2) read the MOU from the Islamists- they are trying to take over
3) No , not on history or politics. Only science/ eng.
4) I think he is scary and not patriotic (didnt put hand on heart and recite pledge)- could be Al_queda plant
5)Yes
6)No. Buddhism is key too, and Hindus, and nothings
7) I live in Marin, and yes its hard , they are insane lefties , but nice here (from being so stoned mostly)

notice what my party is?

I am serious about that
Posted by rwebberc 9 years ago
rwebberc
I was just using you as an example, gack, there are people on here who strongly agree with much of his rhetoric, however.

First of all, solarman, it's "you're all mad", not "your". Did you really graduate from Berkeley? Here's my challenge to you.
1.Do you believe that the Virginia Tech shooter was the reincarnation of Muhammad as prophetofdoom says?
2.Do you really believe that an Anglican candidate is going to impose Sharia law on a Christian nation like religion of peace says?
3.Do you really believe that one must hold a master's or PhD in order to inform people about a topic and make bold statements such as Craig Winn does?
4.What's your purpose in pointing out the fact that Obama went to a public school in Indonesia? Do you believe that he will impose Sharia law or back up fundamentalist regimes/policies?
5.Do you really believe that Craig Win can prove that the "inspiration, strategy, financing, staffing and technical support came from Muslims" for the OK City bombing, despite the fact that the House Oversight Committee investigation said that there was no "conclusive evidence of a foreign connection"?
6.Why do you believe that Judeo-Christianity is the key to preserving life and liberty if you are a Buddhist? Is Buddhism somehow inferior?
7.Why do you classify liberalism as a mental disorder when you choose to live in the most liberal city in the country? Isn't it difficult to live in a city run by the mentally insane?

These are among the challenges that you have dodged thus far. Feel free to respond to them.
Posted by gack1224 9 years ago
gack1224
Why am I at fault? All I'm saying is that Solarman's arguments make sense if taken on face. I'm inclined to believe him at several points. It's not by rational thought that I came to those conclusions, but probably more stereotypical attitude that I have gained personally. I agree that Islam has (although wrongly) been used to justify jihadism. Natural selection was used to justify anti-Semitism. Whatever. There's logic behind every fallacy.
Posted by anwermate 9 years ago
anwermate
Solarman, just b/c you state you won does not mean so. Actually, your annoying that whys we're mad.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
what the heck are you talking about?

name ONE challenge that I have dodged

you totally lost this debate on facts, won the vote from all the silly lib kids here, and are just mad becuase I schooled you so bad

thats why your all mad

SOLARMAN
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