The Instigator
Thiest_1998
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Yassine
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

Islam is not a religion of peace

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Yassine
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/5/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 928 times Debate No: 83500
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (29)
Votes (2)

 

Thiest_1998

Pro

I dare any Muslim to prove me wrong
Yassine

Con

I thank Pro for instigating this debate, I accept his challenge, & I too hope this will prove to be an interesting debate.



Resolution:


- Topic:
wether Islam is a religion which promotes Peace.


- Terminology:

> Religion = scripture, law, theology, & thought.

> Islam = the religion founded by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) & revealed through the Qur’an.

> Promote = encourage, advocate, advance, nurture. . .

> Peace, since the concept is broad & abstruse, I’ll define it broadly as = a state of freedom from injustice or oppression. It must thus considered distinctly from ‘pacifism’.



Rules:


- No forfeit, no disrespect & no logical fallacies.


- BOF:
the burden of proof is on Pro, as per the fomulation of his resolution.


- Sources: authentic & authoritative.



Best of luck.

Debate Round No. 1
Thiest_1998

Pro

Firstly lets start of by saying what is peace (peace means no disturbance from war and argument and have the freedom of choice) and if the qur'an is a religion it would not promote murder to innocent people so far I hope we are on the same track and Islam means submission to Allah example Qur'an 33:36 It's not It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
But in Islam nobody gets a freedom of choice they have to obey all of Allah's teachings or else they die even if they don't believe I him for example Qur'an 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. another reference
Qur'an 9:123 O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous. be harsh to people who don't believe in Islam.
It gives permission to fight anyone they want even if they are innocent.
Qur'an 2:216 Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.
And more punishment towards unbelievers in islam .
Qur'an 8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." which mean chop the heads of non-believers.
And there are many more so I await your response
Yassine

Con

I’d first like to thank Pro for posting his opening argument. I shall present my opening case in this round, & continue with rebuttals in the following rounds.




Case:



Preface-1. Definition of Peace


- Pro states that Peace designate ‘no disturbance from war & freedom of choice’. I would argue that such definition self-contradictory. In fact, ‘no disturbance from war’ & ‘freedom of choice’ are often mutually exclusive. For instance, wars of independence essentially stem from deep desire to acquire freedom of choice & self-determination. Thus, having one may very well mean renouncing the other. The definition which I provided, however, is more relevant to having an objective that is Peace.


- More elaborately, given that the resolution is on wether Islam is a religion which promotes Peace, the arguments relevant to this debate should only involve Islamic directives in light of their objective. In that sense, if the objective of these directives is to promote a state of freedom from injustice or oppression, then the religion does indeed call for Peace. Idem, for the opposite.



Preface-2. Proper understanding of scripture is essential for sound judgement


- The linguistic, textual & circumstantial contexts are necessary to properly understand any text (including scripture), lest misinterpretations occur. Take for instance the following passage from the French Constitution: “Anarchy is a frightening but necessary passage, and the only moment when one can establish a new order of things” [1]. Not knowing the textual & circumstantial context of such passages is a serious impairment to the Constitution that contains them as whole, in this example, the consequences could be devastating!

- In the case of the Qur’an, mastery of Classical Arabic, knowledge of the full context of verses & of all the details of the life of the Prophet (pbuh), are, thus, all necessary components to any meaningful interpretation of these verses.


=> These components come with proper qualifications & proper authority, thus interpreting the Qur’an without such qualifications & such authority is too unpredictable & whimsical, & is bound to lead to serious undesirable consequences.



I. Islam teaches universal Equality amongst Mankind


1. In birth:

* “Every child is born in the state of Fitrah (equal among all mankind)” the Prophet (pbuh) [2].


2. In humanity:

* “Humans are equal, like a set of a tooth-comb” “there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, nor of a non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white over a black, nor a black over a white, except by piety” the Prophet [3].


3. In dignity:

* "Verily we have honoured/dignified the Children of Adam (Mankind)." (17:70).


=> These directives already lay strong foundations for a universal call to Peace.



II. Islam teaches Brotherhood amongst Muslims


1. Between themselves:

* “A Muslim is a brother to a Muslim. He should neither deceive him nor lie to him, nor leave him without assistance. Everything belonging to a Muslim is inviolable for a Muslim; his honour, his blood and property.” the Prophet [4].


2. Within the community:

* ”The believers in their mutual kindness, compassion and sympathy are just like one body. When one of the limbs suffers, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever” the Prophet [5].


=> This brotherhood, enjoining kindness, compassion & assistance, & also equally banning injustice & oppression amongst its members, is proof of the inherent peaceful nature of the message of Islam, amongst Muslims.



III. Islam teaches Tolerance with non-Muslims


- It has already been established that Islam calls for the equality & dignity of all human beings, Muslims & non-Muslims alike, manifesting, thus, the primary aspect of Tolerance enjoined on Muslims towards non-Muslims. Other similar directives in the Qur’an decree:


1. Pre-ordained difference in Religion amongst Mankind, which Muslims must accept in submission:

* ”And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?" (10:99).


2. Freedom of religion in belief & practice:

* ”There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), “And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve.” “ (18:29).


3. Accountability in religion only to God, on Muslims is only the duty to remind:

* “So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller.”, “But if they turn away - then We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], over them as a guardian; upon you is only [the duty of] notification”, “and upon Us is the account.” (88:21-22)(43:48)(13:40).


4. Clear unambiguous distinction between hostile & peaceful non-Muslims:

i. Fairness & Kindness must prevail in dealing with peaceful non-Muslims:

* "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.” (60:8-9).

ii. Justice in self-defence & Patience must prevail in dealing with hostile non-Muslims:

* “Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.” (60:9), "And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient - it is better for those who are patient". (16:126).


5. Prohibition of initiating hostilities or transgression, sanction of fighting only in self-defence against the persecutors & call to Peace as an objective:

* “Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Verily, Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them (those who fight you) wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, for persecution is worse than slaughter. but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.” (2:190-193).


=> The above cited directives & countless others plainly speak for a religion that promotes, in the most unambiguous way, Peace between Muslims & non-Muslims, in enjoining tolerance & mercy for all ; fairness & kindness to those peaceful ; justice & patience with those hostile.



V. Islam teaches universal Mercy


1. For All:

* “Be merciful on the earth, and you will be shown mercy from Who is above the heavens.” the Prophet [6].


2. For Mankind:

* “He will enter Heaven only he who possesses Mercy. It is not the mercy that one has for his friend, but the Mercy for all mankind.” the Prophet [7].


3. For Animals:

* “There is a reward for serving any animate (living being).” the Prophet [8].


4. For Nature:

* "Eat and drink from the provision of Allah , and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption." (2:60).

…etc.


=> The mercy ordained in Islam, thus, extends to all creatures. It would be hard to conceive that the same religion advocates mercy to mere plants & animals, & doesn’t extend the same right to innocent human beings!




Sources:



[*] Qur'anic verses: http://quran.com...

[1] http://goo.gl... p. 198

[2] http://goo.gl...

[3] http://goo.gl... / http://goo.gl...

[4] http://goo.gl...

[5] http://goo.gl...

[6] http://goo.gl...

[7] http://goo.gl...

[8] http://goo.gl...

Debate Round No. 2
Thiest_1998

Pro

if Islam says there is a freedom of choice then why doe's it say in the qur'an 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
then what you just said is a contradiction because if I have a freedom of choice why should I be fighting people who says I should believe in allah
If everyone is equal like the tooth of a comb as you claim then why are women worth less than men
Qur'an 4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them."
You say the brotherhood show kindness to one and other but if islam is a religion of peace why isn't it saying treat everyone this way. instead it says Qur'an 5:51 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
And you carry on saying about protecting yourself in times of invasion but you're allowed to invade other people for not having the same beliefs Qur'an 9:29
by the way freedom is for everyone not just Muslims.
I'm running out of time so this is all for me for round 3

P'S What do you think freedom means if I'm wrong
Yassine

Con

I thank Pro of posting his third round.




Rebuttals:



Preface


- Pro has yet to:

1. Provide any sources whatsoever for any of his claims, thus they shall remain bare assertions until supported otherwise.

2. Authenticate the interpretations he offered of the verses he brought up, for Pro is clearly not qualified to offer any on his own, as demonstrated in R1.

3. Refute any of the points I made, thus my case is still intact.


- My main source of interpretation is the 30-volumes Exegesis of the Qur’an: at-Tahrir wat-Tanwir, complied by Ibn ‘Ashur, considered one of the Mujadidin of the Maliki school.



Killing Innocents

“if the Qur’an is a religion [of peace] it would not promote murder to innocent people so far I hope we are on the same track”


- Most certainty,

* “whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” (5:32).


=> As the verse unequivocally decrees, killing an innocent soul is tantamount to killing all mankind. The prohibition can’t get firmer than this.



“and Islam means submission to Allah example Qur'an 33:36 It's not It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.”


- Of course. It is God & His messenger who decrees what is Good & what is Bad, not believers! Otherwise, we would be talking about something entirely other than religion. Those who disobey the commands of God are, by definition, sinners.



“But in Islam nobody gets a freedom of choice they have to obey all of Allah's teachings or else they die even if they don't believe I him”


- I have provided extensive proof from the Qur’an about all the elements of Freedom of religion decreed within, which Pro has yet to disprove. & I can offer many many more. There are countless verses prescribing & re-prescribing this fundamental concept: “We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant.” (50:45), “Say, "O disbelievers […]. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” “ (109:6) ”Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which you used to differ." (22:69) …



Verses 9:29/123

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness.“


- This chapter (Bara’a) was revealed subsequently to the treason committed by the Pagans 2 years into the truce treaty they had signed with Muslims. It deals with the aftermath of said treason, & how Muslim should behave with these pagans & those in their position, including those from Ghasan [9].


- Context of (9:29): “this verse has been revealed to sanction the campaign of Tabuk” [10] when the rulers of Ghasan, the land adjacent to Arabia, who were preparing to attack the Muslims in Medina year 9H:

* Narrated Umar: “[. . .] and at that time we dreaded a king of Ghassan. It was mentioned to us that he intended to attack us, and our minds were haunted by him.” [11].


- Context of (9:123): “
this verse came later to enjoin the resumption of fighting the land of disbelievers adjacent to the land of Islam” [9].


=> In both verses, the word “fight” is used, not “kill”. Fighting implies two sides in a state of war, not one side slaughtering the other. It is clear from the context that the verse is sanctioned against hostile non-Muslims, in the context, those aggressive Arabs adjacent to Muslims, thus in self-defence.



“be harsh to people who don't believe in Islam.”


- This goes against the clear decree of the Qur’an itself. As mentioned in R1:

* "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion”. (60:8).



“It gives permission to fight anyone they want even if they are innocent.”

- As established above, Pro’s interpretation here is false, for which he has yet to provide any proof.



Verse (2:216)

“Fighting has been enjoined upon you”


- Two questions arise:

i. Against whom is fighting prescribed? Believers? Infidels? Aliens? Animals?!…

ii. & with what? Pillows? Potatoes? Weapons?…

=> Without context, the verse could mean nothing, or anything!


- Context: the verse is revealed in the same context as the previously mentioned verse (22:39-40) [*], “Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah.” “, i.e. for self-defence [12].



Verse 8:12

“[. . .] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved…”


- Context: the verse is revealed concerning the Batter of Badr agains Quraysh, & it is addressed to the angles not the muslims, an obvious elements which Pro seemed to have ignored!

=> The verse speaks in the context of the battlefield, which consists of soldiers fighting each-other! Plus, instilling fear in the hearts of the enemy is one of the most conventional & most effective tactics of psychological warfare, as it defeats the will of the enemy & weakens his mind.



“If everyone is equal like the tooth of a comb as you claim then why are women worth less than men”


- Again, Pro fails to provide any authentication for the interpretations he offers, which happen to be false. It was already established in R1 that Islam unequivocally decrees the equality, in humanity, of all Mankind, evidently, Men & Women included:

* “O you mankind, surely We created you of a male and a female, and We have made you races and tribes that you may get mutually acquainted. Surely the most honourable among you in the Providence of Allah are the most pious” (49:13)


- Also, Islam explicitly prescribes Equity of Genders:

* “And the men believers and the women believers are patrons one of the other” (9:71).

* “And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable” (2:228) [*].

* “Verily, Women are but the equivalent of Men. Those honourable among men will honour them, and those ignoble among men will dishonour them” the Prophet, also articulated into: “Women are the counter-part of Men” [13].



Verse (5:51):

“You say the brotherhood show kindness to one and other but if islam is a religion of peace why isn't it saying treat everyone this way. instead it says Qur'an

5:51 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them..”


- The clear distinction the Qur’an makes between hostile non-Muslims & peaceful non-Muslims has already been made in R1, which Pro ignored in favour of his own baseless misinterpretations!


- The Prophet (buh) himself made allies the peaceful Jews of Medina (constitution of medina), & the Christians of Abyssinia & the Copts! The verse, of course, does not apply to him, for “the allegiance here refers to allegiance in religion or against Muslims” [14], as the very next few verses particularly specify: “do not take to yourselves the ones who take your religion in mockery and as a plaything- from among the ones who were brought the Book even before you” (5:57).




Sources:



[9] http://goo.gl...

[10] http://goo.gl...

[11] http://goo.gl...

[12] http://goo.gl...

[13] http://goo.gl... / http://goo.gl...

[14] http://goo.gl...

Debate Round No. 3
Thiest_1998

Pro

Thiest_1998 forfeited this round.
Yassine

Con

Yassine forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Thiest_1998

Pro

Thiest_1998 forfeited this round.
Yassine

Con

Conclusion:


- I have established throughout this debate that Islam teaches equality among mankind, essential human dignity, brotherhood among Muslims, tolerance with non-Muslims, fairness & kindness to those peaceful amongst them, justice & patience with those hostile. It teaches Peace as an objective, an objective sometimes achieved through means of self-defence against oppression. It teaches mercy to all creatures, Man & Nature alike. I have brought verses from the Qur’an & sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) as basis for these teachings, & supported them with referencing authentic interpretations, from authoritative sources.

=> Therefore, Islam does indeed promote Peace, as it seeks, in all instances, a state of freedom from injustice or oppression, for all creatures, human or otherwise, Muslim or otherwise. Thus, Pro’s resolution is refuted.


- I have equally demonstrated that Pro’s objections are invalid, for they are based on completely unauthentic interpretations, mischaracterisation or exclusion of all contexts, bare assertions… & brought proof from scripture & authentic interpretation contradicting Pro’s own claims. While Pro has not provided any sources whatsoever for all the claims he made! Nor did he refute any of the arguments I advanced!

=> Therefore, Pro’s case does not fulfil his burden of proof, which he solely bear. For this reason alone, I win the resolution.


=> Vote Con.



Sources:


- Rectifying a misplaced linked:

[8] http://goo.gl...

Debate Round No. 5
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Yassine 10 months ago
Yassine
- Alright, thanks. I have another similar debate still on voting period (1 day left), you can vote on it if you want:
* http://www.debate.org...
Posted by donald.keller 10 months ago
donald.keller
If you two started a new debate and copy/pasted your arguments, the Voter's Union will provide 2 votes for you... Quality votes.
Posted by Yassine 11 months ago
Yassine
- Donald, whatever do you mean?
Posted by donald.keller 11 months ago
donald.keller
My apology for the quality of voting on this Debate.

If rehosted, we will provide two new votes.
Posted by Thiest_1998 11 months ago
Thiest_1998
I am on holiday in Jamaica I'm not able to reply all the time due to the atrocious wifi
Posted by whiteflame 11 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: bballcrook21// Mod action: NOT Removed<

1 points to Con (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: 2 forfeits on the side of Pro.

[*Reason for non-removal*] Forfeits are sufficient reasoning for a conduct vote.
************************************************************************
Posted by whiteflame 11 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Forever23// Mod action: NOT Removed<

1 points to Con (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Pro had 2 ff. Con had 1. ething I

[*Reason for non-removal*] Forfeits are sufficient reasoning for a conduct vote.
************************************************************************
Posted by Yassine 11 months ago
Yassine
@Theunknown

- You assume there is a misquotation! There isn't. There has never been. If you think otherwise, the offer extends to you too. Challenge me to a formal debate if you think you can defend your claims. I don't mind wining multiple debates on the same resolution.
Posted by Theunkown 11 months ago
Theunkown
Sorry for typo, I meant what sense does it make to ask he question on the forum if the misquotation happened in this debate? There would be no context in the forum post
Posted by Theunkown 11 months ago
Theunkown
What sense does it make to post on true forum of the misquotation and taking quotes out of context happened in this debate?

Ironic, usually Muslims accuse others of taking verses out of context and quote mining. Here it's directly the opposite!
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Forever23 11 months ago
Forever23
Thiest_1998YassineTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had 2 ff. Con had 1.
Vote Placed by bballcrook21 11 months ago
bballcrook21
Thiest_1998YassineTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: 2 forfeits on the side of Pro.