The Instigator
Topaet
Pro (for)
The Contender
Enlighten
Con (against)

Islamic culture and Islam are immoral

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 438 times Debate No: 100850
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Topaet

Pro

Immoral = violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics (e.g. human rights).
Rules:
1. Provide evidence for your arguments and counter-arguments.
2. Please refrain from using ad hominem arguments and/or logical fallacies
3. First turn is for opening arguments, second for rebuttals, and third for closing statements. The third round is to be used for rebuttals and conclusions only; no new arguments.
4. Do not forfeit.
Please do not accept the debate, if you do not agree with the rules.
Good luck and have fun in the debate!

1. Islam is against religious freedom:
[1]: According to the hadiths, apostates are to be punished by death: Sahih al-Bukhari 56:226, [2] Sunan Ibn Majah 20:2632, [3] Sahih al-Bukhari 88:5.
[4]: 40% of Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy.
[5] According to the Qur'an, apostates will be greatly punished: Quran 9:66, [6] Quran 16: 106, [7] Quran 4:89.

2. Islamic culture supports Islamic terror:
[8] 28% of the Muslim world population have confessed that suicide bombings are occasionally, sometimes, or often justified.
[9] 25% of British Muslims have affirmed that the 7/7 attacks were justified.
[10] 67% of British Muslims would not tip-off the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with terrorist sympathizers.
[11] 42% of Turkish Muslims believe that Muslims were the true victims of the Charlie Hebdo attack, and 20% remarked that the Charlie Hebdo employees had deserved death for depicting Muhammad.

3. Islamic culture is sexist and a great majority of Muslims are sexist:
[12] 86% of Muslims believe that women must always obey their husbands.
[13] 27% of Muslims have said that women should not be allowed to decide whether they want to wear the veil or not.
[14] Islamic countries have the worst women's rights on earth (Yemen is ranked 144 of 144, Pakistan 143, Syria 142, Saudi Arabia 141, Iran 139, Egypt 132, Turkey 130, United Arab Emirates 124).

4. Islam is homophobic and a large majority of Muslims are homophobic:
[15] According to the Qur'an, homosexuality is to be punished by death: Quran 7:80-84 and [16] 6:165-66.
[17] The only countries where there is still the death penalty for homosexuality are Islamic countries.
[18] According to Sharia, homosexuality is to be punished by death.
[19] According to the hadiths, homosexuality is to be punished by death: Abu Dawud 40:112, [20] Sunan Ibn Majah 20:2658.
[21] 89% of Muslims believe that homosexuality is immoral.

Sources:
[1]: https://sunnah.com...
[2]: https://sunnah.com...
[3]: https://sunnah.com...
[4]: http://www.pewforum.org...
[5]: https://quran.com...
[6]: https://quran.com...
[7]: https://quran.com...
[8]: http://www.pewforum.org...
[9]: http://www.cbsnews.com...
[10]: http://www.thetimes.co.uk...
[11]: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
[12]: http://www.pewforum.org...
[13]: http://www.pewforum.org...
[14]: http://reports.weforum.org...
[15]: https://quran.com...
[16]: https://quran.com...
[17]: http://old.ilga.org...
[18]: https://en.wikipedia.org...
[19]: https://sunnah.com...
[20]: https://sunnah.com...
[21]: http://www.pewforum.org...
Enlighten

Con

The title has distinguished separately, the terms "Islam" and "Islamic Culture", and thereby must be treated as separate entities. Islam being of course the religion, and therefore the argument "against" on this side would be suggesting that the religion in itself is inherently immoral. Whereas "Islamic Culture" would largely be discussing Muslims and how they act. On this end of the debate, it is crucial to signify that I am not going to argue that there is no immorality in Islamic Culture, as indeed there is immorality in any culture, whether it be a religious culture, a societal culture, a communal culture or a country's culture. Therefore a distinction must be made between "Islam" and "Muslims", where unfortunately, in the world we live in today, the actions of some Muslims, a frighteningly growing amount, Muslims do not wholly reflect Islam.

Now, just to kick start my argument, and as you can probably see already, I definitely do not believe that Islam is immoral.
In my humble opinion, when the different verses from the Qur'an are quoted on the topic of capital punishment, nobody is entitled to carry these punishments out except for divinely appointed leaders under their Islamic government. If you are unaware, Shi'a Muslims largely believe in 12 divinely appointed leaders after the Prophet, the 12th of which is still alive, and in a hiding or "occultation", and is due to reappear at some point. It is only under such a government that such rules can be truthfully implemented. This is where I believe many countries running Islam as a culture and as a form of law, are going wrong. Verses of the Qur'an are being abused to serve their own political views, the kind of corruption that has led to the formation of "You disagree? You will be hung to death..." May sound ludicrous, but this is what is exactly happening today! Look at the recent execution of Shaykh Nimr by Saudi Arabia! This is not dissimilar to what terrorist groups such as Da'esh are doing today where people are executed, without trial, for merely following different beliefs. Another similarity between this corrupt methodology with that of areas such as Saudi Arabia is that disgustingly, Muslims are even killing other Muslims! This is where the distinction between Muslim and Islam needs to be made, as if these actions of Muslims were the true Islamic methods, we would be able to see this behaviour in the lives of Muhammad (SAW), and his family. I will here use the example of the 1st successor and closest man, also son-in-law to the Prophet, Imam Ali.

Once, a man came to Ali to confess his crime of stealing, as this man had a guilty conscience. *Pause* (It is known that stealing in Islam would be punishable by the cutting of the criminal's hand, and what could be more telling than the man confessing himself... Surely this would immediately warrant the punishment being used? ) However, by Islamic principles, Ali did not act on the confession itself, rather he attempted to prove the man innocent and practice penance. By Islamic methods, if even the slightest doubt is cast over the crime, they are not due the punishment. Ali therefore asked questions like "Perhaps you are mistaken and were extremely hungry and it is out of compulsion that you committed the theft." Furthered by questions such as "Perhaps you stole from an unguarded place" (nullifies crime of theft) and asked whether he was forced or under orders. Do you think that Muslims carry out such strict checks in places like Saudi before executions, let alone corporate punishments? I for one certainly don't. My point here is of course, Muslims are not representing the true morals of Islam. In some cases, it is, as mentioned, Muslims being immoral rather than Islam.

I touched upon terrorism, but in the current climate, that is the hotly debated topic, and something which really makes me tear up, is the fact that a discussion about my religion today is unfinished without some remarks on this issue. Therefore I will put some points forward regarding this.
Islam condemns terrorism. Now I hope, as you appear to have substantial knowledge, can appreciate this fact and that I do not have to go to extensive measures to prove this. However I will, as this is an opening statement, mention a few brief points to that regard.

1) Many use Surah Baqarah Ayah 191 as proof for slaying non believers; "And kill them wherever ye find them". But it is crucial to put this in context; the verse preceeding, 190 states "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you". Here we can prove that 190 must be first adhered to before 191; ie. the latter is a mere act of self defense. This argument can be enhanced, as all the battles the Prophet fought in were in the town in which he was (residing). The Prophet therefore, never instigated the war, but once he'd been attacked, he then of course participated in self defense.
Since this is being discussed, let me now bring in the issue of the term "Jihad". Please note here, I am not claiming Islam is a pacifist religion; it quite simply is not! Many-a-time however, I have questioned reporters and Non Muslims what they believe Jihad is, and the common response I receive is "religious war". Whilst strictly this is correct, it is not merely war in the physical sense of the term. In fact Jihad literally translates to the act of struggling. To differing levels therefore, everyone undertakes Jihad in their daily lives. Me choosing to pray over watching a match, or choosing to eat Halal food despite their being other options, are in fact all forms of Jihad, albeit minimal ones. Essentially, scholars have split Jihad into two categories; The Greater Struggle, and The Lesser Struggle. It is in fact the Greater Jihad which is the internal struggle; a struggle to defeat inner human desire, and the lesser Jihad being fighting in the literal sense. Therefore, when media outlets describe Da'esh as "Jihadi", or name terrorists "Jihadi John", it must be really understood that Jihad is not what it is made out to be; this is just people playing tricks through language. Much like how Da'esh are referred to mainly as "Islamic State" rather than their true title; often an attempt to indoctrinate a negative vibe into people's minds, albeit subconsciously.
Moreover, studies have shown that as a matter of fact, an overwhelming majority of Muslims do NOT sympathise with such horrid actions. The few who actually do, cite Political reasons over Religious reasons; it is not Islamic terrorism, that is just the excuse to cover other objectives. And if this were the view of Islam, what about the rest of us?! Does that make pretty much the whole Muslim population wrongdoers, because we sure to God are not practicing acts of terror, or even supporting them. I know there are some surveys suggesting otherwise, but I please request you to not used cherry picked information from a minority of people, and rather look at those who are well informed, by which I mean scholars. (Message me personally and I can send links to lectures and statements of condemnations)

2) On Homosexuality. I will keep this short and simple. I disagree with the institution of homosexuality, and you are right, I do believe it to be immoral (as do many Non-Muslims). That being said, I am highly of the opinion, that whilst I disagree with HOMOSEXUALITY, I will never discriminate against people who are homosexuals. I believe, whether or not a way of life is moral or not, people should never be discriminated, especially in cases such as these where today homosexuals are certainly increasing.

3) Women. This is probably where I am most passionate in defending my religion's criticisms. Islam does not see women as INFERIOR to men. There is an important distinction between equality and identical. Men and women, by Islamic definitions, in no way have identical rights and responsibilities, but at the same time are equally viewed in the eyes of Allah; the only distinguishing factor between the people being piety. The Prophet said "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety."
The Qur'an says that men and women are "garments" for each other. Extending this metaphor, garments do not merely serve one united purpose; some are to beautify, some to protect, some for comfort, yet they are all as important as each other, despite serving different purposes.

"Hijab" means modesty, and does not mean, a literal cloth or covering. It is down to opinions of scholars and from some Ahadith that it is then inferred to have meant for women what it does. But Hijab also applies to men; there are restrictions on clothing for example, likewise on behaviour such as the command to "lower gaze". Hijab is something the religion has prescribed, much like how lying is condemned, prayer is obligated, Hijab is similarly another rule. It is however the freedom of the person to follow it the way they seem fit.
Moreover, men, as suggested, have different roles and purposes. The man must ensure food is on the table, and is obligated to have a source of income. This does not mean the wife can also not work and earn a living - that is ludicrous!
Sorry for repeating here but again Muslim vs Islam: Yes, Saudi Arabia prevents women from driving, sports, shopping and more, but this is not strictly Islamic. Of course, the Prophet's wife was the wealthiest women in Arabia!
For further insight and better explained in more depth I urge you to read my arguments in an earlier debate about women;
http://www.debate.org...

Finally, we cannot only see the negative aspects (falsely) attributed to Islam. We must also acknowledge the masses of good done under the umbrella of religion and Islam. A religion which is the cause of so much gooness can surely not simultaneously be the drive for Boko Haram, Daesh etc?
Debate Round No. 1
Topaet

Pro

I will only quote the things that I disagree with and that I believe are important parts.

"This is where the distinction between Muslim and Islam needs to be made, as if these actions of Muslims were the true Islamic methods, we would be able to see this behaviour in the lives of Muhammad (SAW), and his family. I will here use the example of the 1st successor and closest man, also son-in-law to the Prophet, Imam Ali.
Once, a man came to Ali to confess his crime of stealing, as this man had a guilty conscience. *Pause* (It is known that stealing in Islam would be punishable by the cutting of the criminal's hand, and what could be more telling than the man confessing himself... Surely this would immediately warrant the punishment being used? ) However, by Islamic principles, Ali did not act on the confession itself, rather he attempted to prove the man innocent and practice penance. By Islamic methods, if even the slightest doubt is cast over the crime, they are not due the punishment. Ali therefore asked questions like "Perhaps you are mistaken and were extremely hungry and it is out of compulsion that you committed the theft." Furthered by questions such as "Perhaps you stole from an unguarded place" (nullifies crime of theft) and asked whether he was forced or under orders. Do you think that Muslims carry out such strict checks in places like Saudi before executions, let alone corporate punishments? I for one certainly don't. My point here is of course, Muslims are not representing the true morals of Islam. In some cases, it is, as mentioned, Muslims being immoral rather than Islam."

I don't see how sparing one person (from unnecessarily harsh punishment) proves that Islam is not immoral. I have cited sources where Ali burns apostates and where Muhammad orders the killings of apostates and homosexuals (see [1],[2],[3],[19],[20]). It is incredibly ignorant to not reply to these verses but instead assert that Islam is not immoral because one person was spared even though hundreds if not thousands of other people were killed because of Muhammad and his family.

"Moreover, studies have shown that as a matter of fact, an overwhelming majority of Muslims do NOT sympathise with such horrid actions. The few who actually do, cite Political reasons over Religious reasons; it is not Islamic terrorism, that is just the excuse to cover other objectives. And if this were the view of Islam, what about the rest of us?! Does that make pretty much the whole Muslim population wrongdoers, because we sure to God are not practicing acts of terror, or even supporting them. I know there are some surveys suggesting otherwise, but I please request you to not used cherry picked information from a minority of people, and rather look at those who are well informed, by which I mean scholars. (Message me personally and I can send links to lectures and statements of condemnations)"

I have cited several sources about this topic and would recommend you to stake a look [8] and [11] since it's clearly not just an incredibly small minority, but a big minority. In [8] the question was whether suicide bombings could be justified to defend Islam (so it's about religion not about politics) you can read further and more specific about [8] in [22]and in [11] people are outraged because their religious leader was depicted.

"2) On Homosexuality. I will keep this short and simple. I disagree with the institution of homosexuality, and you are right, I do believe it to be immoral (as do many Non-Muslims). That being said, I am highly of the opinion, that whilst I disagree with HOMOSEXUALITY, I will never discriminate against people who are homosexuals. I believe, whether or not a way of life is moral or not, people should never be discriminated, especially in cases such as these where today homosexuals are certainly increasing."

Since in the Qur'an and the hadiths the punishment for this "crime" is death (see [15],[19],[20]) I believe you have failed to address this issue adequately and would like you to explain how you can defend the position that Islam is morally just while hundreds of homosexuals have to die because of Islam.
I would also like you to provide a source (or some kind of evidence) for the claim that the number of homosexuals is rising. As far as I know, more people admit to being gay nowadays but the percentage of homosexuals has not drastically changed.

"3)" I have not cited any Qur'an verses for this, since I do not believe that sexism is necessarily an issue with Islam, but certainly with Islamic culture (see [12],[13] and [14])

"Finally, we cannot only see the negative aspects (falsely) attributed to Islam."
Since this is a debate about whether Islam is immoral or not, I think seeing the worst of something is enough to judge it (e.g Hitler liked animals [23], strengthened the economy to help the people and made sure that every German had a job [24]... Does that mean that Hitler was not immoral? I do not think so, and you probably do not either, just because you do some good things, does not mean that the bad things you do

"We must also acknowledge the masses of good done under the umbrella of religion and Islam."
I do not doubt that Islam also does good things, but I would prefer it, if you gave some evidence to support your claims (see rule 1) so that other people that read this debate can form their own conclusions.

"A religion which is the cause of so much gooness can surely not simultaneously be the drive for Boko Haram, Daesh etc?"
I disagree. "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" Since these organizations themselves claim that Islam is their motivation, I would like to know, how you know (and how you can proof it) that they are not "the drive" for these organizations.

I would appreciate it, if you could explain my fourth argument (homophobia in Islam) further and why you believe that killing people for being gay is not immoral.
I would also appreciate it, if you could explain my first argument (lack of religious freedom) which was not addressed at all. And especially how it is not immoral to kill people for leaving Islam (see [1],[2] and [3]).

Sources:
[1]: https://sunnah.com...
[2]: https://sunnah.com...
[3]: https://sunnah.com...
[8]: http://www.pewforum.org...
[11]: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
[15]: https://quran.com...
[19]: https://sunnah.com...
[20]: https://sunnah.com...
[22]: http://pewresearch.org...
[23]: https://en.wikipedia.org...
[24]: https://en.wikipedia.org...
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Topaet 1 year ago
Topaet
*not round 3 but in the comments
Posted by Topaet 1 year ago
Topaet
First of all, I would like to apologize because my source for [10] was deleted.
Secondly, I would like to thank my opponent for the debate.
Thirdly:
There were some things that I did not like about this debate, I hope my opponent will respond to these things in round 3:
My opponent did not respect rule number 1 (Provide evidence for your arguments and counter-arguments.) and rule number 4 (do not forfeit).
My opponent did not directly respond to any of my arguments in round 1:
He did not respond to my first argument ([Islam 1] Islam is against religious freedom] at all.
He made claims without evidence, while ignoring the evidence that I had presented as a response to my second argument ([Islamic culture 1] Islamic culture supports Islamic terror).
He did not directly respond to my third argument ([Islamic culture 2] Islamic culture is sexist), but instead explained that women do not have the same rights as men (in Islam) but also not the same responsibilities and explained the meaning of "hijab" and that it is not mandatory.
He simply stated his opinion on my fourth argument ([Islam 2] Islam is homophobe) while ignoring all evidence (Qur'an, hadith and stastics) and did not talk about the Islamic opinion on this topic at all.

My opinion on this topic has not changed at all, I still believe that human rights are more important than religious law, that humans should not be killed for having homosexual anal sex or leaving the Islamic faith. I also still believe that most Muslims are homophobe and to a certain degree sexist and supportive of Islamic terrorism.
I hope everyone had fun while reading this debate and might even have learnt something.
Posted by Enlighten 1 year ago
Enlighten
Please see my debate on women in Islam from earlier as I was unable to mention everything during this debate.
http://www.debate.org...
This should act as further explanation and evidence on this particular issue.
Posted by Enlighten 1 year ago
Enlighten
Sure. I have about to submit my first round, however have not been able to, to my satisfaction, complete a sufficient response as I found 10,000 words quite tight, however hope to engage in an academic and logical discussion. :)
Posted by Topaet 1 year ago
Topaet
This is the fourth time that I had to post this debate, please do not accept if you do not want to argue against my point or are badly informed and don't even read my arguments.
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