The Instigator
GufranLahib
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Emilrose
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Israel Is Wrong

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Emilrose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/21/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 67394
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

GufranLahib

Pro

Listening to Netanyahu's defenders in the media (and that is pretty much all you get as objective reporters are yanked off the air), I'm struck by how Americans are indoctrinated into ignoring the most significant fact about Gaza.
That is the cause of the "war." Yes, Israel has the "right" to defend itself but Palestinians have the "right" to resist occupation. Those conflicting rights are leading to perdition and, in my opinion, the loss of the Israel many of us have loved and identified with our entire lives.
At the time Ariel Sharon withdrew the settlers, when the Palestinian Authority was still in charge of Gaza, he refused to coordinate Israel's withdrawal with Mahmoud Abbas who, despite his pleas, was not even told when the pullout would take place. Abbas wanted to ensure that the militants (who he effectively subdued in the West Bank) would not seize control. Sharon refused and the militants took over.
Ultimately Gaza separated from the West Bank and Israel was free to enter Gaza at will, killing or imprisoning whoever it considered a threat, and, in the process, hundreds who weren't. Militants launched rockets at Israel and Israel responded, disproportionately as always. As now.
JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish Forward reports here how Netanyahu, knowing that the kidnapped Israeli teenagers were dead from day 1, maintained the fiction they were alive for 18 days in order to ignite the atmosphere for war. He even lied to the boys' parents.
Is this irrelevant now? No, not when the current situation directly stems from the murder of the one Israeli leader determined to achieve peace with the Palestinians. Netanyahu's rise is the direct result of Rabin's murder.
My fellow Jews who support this war are entitled to. But they should not kid themselves. They are supporting Netanyahu for one reason alone: ethnic solidarity. Just like every other nation on earth that cheered wars sold to them by liars. Fine. But that is all it is. The cause of the war is the occupation and Israel's adamant refusal to end it. How long will we be duped?
Questions that don't exist for Congress and the media..
1. If there had been no occupation that transmuted into imprisonment, there would have been no rockets being shot at Israel.
2. There have been six Israeli invasions of Gaza justified by the rockets and the existence of Hamas.
3. Where did the Israeli-designated terrorists come from. In 1948 750,000 Palestinians were forced to leave the Israel of that time. Their property was seized and 450 villages bull-dozen so they would have no place to which they could return. Very quickly passed a law forbidding them the right to return. Israel felt no responsibility for the horrors they inflicted on the Palestinians.
4. The reservoir of recruits was expanded in 1967 when two hundred thousand West Bankers fled before the advancing Israeli forces.
5. Israel's manipulated narrative has included successfully branding the Palestinians as terrorists, when they have been simply trying to free themselves from first an occupation and then a blockade. They are the victims here.
Emilrose

Con

Accepted.

Note to Pro that the resolution of Israel being "wrong" is subjective and lacking in additional explanation. Pro then contradicts the resolution by asserting that Israel has the "right" to defend itself and therefore undermines much of their argument. I'll highlight once more that the term "wrong", if not supported with context, is entirely subjective in meaning. Pro may see Israel as wrong but so far they have offered no citations or proven facts to substantiate this claim. Because of this ambiguous definition--which could apply to a number of things--I'll outline my own reasons with supported facts on why Israel is not wrong to defend itself or protect its civilian population, following by rebuttals.

History of Conflict

The history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is indeed expansive and dates back exactly to the 1900's, almost fifty years before Israel was even established. During this period a selection of small Arab terrorist groups began to form with the stated intent of attacking and killing Jews within Palestine, many of which has been settled in the land for a considerably long time. The first significant attack that took place during the Jewish Passover in Jerusalem, 1920, overall six Jews were killed and a number of 200 were injured. Jewish communities within the Galilee and near the Syria border were also targeted and attacked. The reason why these particular cases are relevant is because they were the first in the beginning of a long-standing conflict and most importantly: happened before any large-scale immigration or any establishment of settlements. Rather, the Arabs were rioting against existing members of the Jewish Palestinian community. Another example would be the Jaffa riots when 47 Jews were killed.

As explained example of the Jaffa massacre can be found here:


        • “Arabs of Jaffa murderously attacked Jewish inhabitants of the town and Arab raids were made on five Jewish rural settlements; the disorders were suppressed by the police and military forces. Forty-seven Jews were killed and 146 wounded, mostly by Arabs. The hostility shown towards the Jews during the riots was shared by Arabs of all classes; Muslim and Christian Arabs".


Later on in 1929 there was the most famous example of the Arab initiated Hebron Massacre, in which 69 Jews were brutally killed and hundreds injured. Other attacks took place again in Jerusalem, Jaffa and the place of Safed.


        • "Murderous attacks were made on the Jews in various parts of the country. The most violent attacks were those against the old established Jewish communities at Hebron and Safed; there were also attacks in Jerusalem and Jaffa and against several Jewish rural settlements. There was little retaliation by Jews, of whom 133 were killed and 339 wounded.

(number displayed is in total)

The individual behind organizing these attacks was not in fact anyone who had lost land or suffered from displacement, but rather an extremely wealthy Arab named Haj Amin al-Husseini who became the Mufti of Jerusalem and later affiliated himself with Nazi leader Adolf Hitler. He was so enthused about gaining the assistance and support of Hitler that he in fact sent 15 drafts of declarations that he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the future of Jews in Palestine. One of which, asked the two countries to impose the illegality of a Jewish home in Palestine and further stated that "Arab countries have the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries".
Not only is it requiring that Jews be removed from Palestine, but also that the same apply to all surrounding Arab lands with Jewish residence. Hitler stated that the Arabs and them (Germany) were "natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely the Jews".

In 1945 Yugoslavia attempted to indict the Mufti (note: the first Palestinian leader) because of his part in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers who contributed heavily to the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary. However, he escaped from French detention and continued with fighting Jews in Egypt and Lebanon.

Moving towards the establishment of Israel, the 1948 war also provides an example of a newly created state being attacked without any previous provocation. On the very first day of its existence, Israel was targeted by five Arab nations with far superior militaries, when they invaded Israeli territory. Once again Israel was not being launched war against because of settlements, displaced people or as you state in your own argument: Palestinian prisoners (naturally this was before any Palestinians Arabs could be imprisoned), rather it was directly because of a new state, one that was not wanted in the region by Arab countries or leaders, had been created. Two ceasefires were introduced during the conflict, both of which that were violated by Arab armies. Eventually in 1949 the war stopped and agreements on armistice lines were made with Egypt controlling the Gaza and Jordan Jerusalem and the West Bank. This was until Egypt cut off the Teran Straits in 1967, which if unprovoked, is both technically an "act of war" and what led to the six day conflict. Because of Jordanian and Syrian military attack and involvement new territories were gained by Israel, such as the Golan Heights and certain areas, namely those of religious significance, of Jerusalem were legitimately won. It should be highlighted that all wars that have occurred have been initiated by Arab states/groups and not Israel.

Article 51 of the UN Charter in fact states:

"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security."

Therefore, Israel is legally within rights to defend itself when attacked. Studying more modern cases such as the recent Gaza conflict Israel was also legally justified in retaliating against Hamas because they (Hamas) had made three armed attempts at attacking Israeli towns through underground tunnel infiltration. While rockets, missiles and mortar shells being fired into Israeli territory also played a part, the extensive tunnel network was in fact the main catalyst in Israel committing ground control with the purpose of destroying these tunnels. Within them were found an array of drugs, handcuffs and other kidnapping equipment, along with large supplies of weaponry. Despite being involved in a military conflict with Hamas, Israel also still proceeded to provide aid to Gaza and allowed over 2000 Palestinians to receive medical treatment in Israel. Israel also continued to supply Gaza with electricity despite the fact it was benefiting Hamas. As well as carrying out over 80 infrastructural repairs on electricity, water, communication, and other necessary equipment within Gaza. Israel agreed and adhered to all ceasefires made, Hamas either rejected or violated.


Sources:


[1.] http://www.camera.org...

[2.] http://www.aish.com...

[3.] http://history-of-israel.org...

[4.] http://www.ushmm.org...

[5.] http://www.mythsandfacts.org...
Debate Round No. 1
GufranLahib

Pro

GufranLahib forfeited this round.
Emilrose

Con


Forfeit by Pro so rebuttals are directed at round one only.

Summarization of Arguments

As highlighted, history would suggest that the ongoing conflict was in fact not initiated by Israel. Even before large-scale Jewish immigration, Arabs (though of course, not all) within Palestine began riots in populated areas such as Jerusalem and then initiated events such as the Hebron, Jaffa and Safed massacres. The majority of this was led by Haj al-Husseni (the mufti), someone from an extremely wealthy background and whose domestic interests (such as small ownership of land/property) were not threatened by any future incoming migration. Because of his new political interests, he became an admirer of and also asked to receive the assistance of Hitler in "solving the Jewish elements" in not only Palestine but all other Arab countries.

When Israel did eventually become a state, it experienced a year long war in which it was forced (because of invasion of Israeli territory, and repeated threats) to defend itself and eventually won. Because territory lines drawn up by the U.N were only armistice, the settlements that currently exist within Israel are technically not "illegal". Rather they are merely on disputed land that has not formally belonged to a sovereign entity since the Ottoman Empire.

After its War of Independence, Israel still continued to face intermittent terror attacks--as it is still doing in present time. Sometimes such attacks from individual or small groups of persons acting alone and, as many cases show, on other occasions they were militant organized attacks. The next prominent terrorism group to be established was the Palestinian Liberation Organization--that is now known as Fatah. A group that was created by Yasser Arafat, and began by launching terror raids against Israel in 1965. A year after in 1967 the Six Day War started, primarily because Syria had decided to mobilize its troops against Israel and because Egypt has closed the Straits of Tiran, a hugely important shipping area for Israel. Both classify as an "act of war". Evidently neither armies were dissuaded from initiating war again, as both Egyptian and Syrian attacked Israel in 1973, while Yom Kippur was being celebrated. Other Arab nations such as Jordan, Iraq, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Libya, Sudan, and Kuwait assisted aided these armies with financial assistance and military support. Libya in fact contributed $1 billion to Egyptian army and provided expensive weaponry. Despite the fact that a number of ten countries were involved and the obvious military superiority, Israel still managed to eventually secure a victory, if not a very close one. As with the Six Day War, terrorist groups still began to form and Israel still continued to be targeted. While Fatah is still an acting organization, and current has current governance of the West Bank, it is now Hamas that is Israel's main issue in terms of conflict and neighboring terror groups. I'll state once again that all conflicts concerning have been initiated and prolonged (example, refusal and rejection of ceasefire) by Hamas.

One of the ideological starting points of Hamas is:

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, May Allah Pity his Soul)."

Here we have a "martyr" of Hamas explicitly stating that Islam will eliminate Israel. Which of course, involves the provoking of war and killing of civilians.

The Hamas Charter also goes on to state:

"This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long."

Rather this is not referring to Israel in its name, this one simply states "the Jews", which categorizes not a country but an entire group of people.

Drawing again to Article 51 of the UN Charter which confirms Israel's right to self-defence when under attack, therefore contradicting your resolution of Israel being "wrong". Clearly it is not legally wrong in defending itself, so how else exactly is it wrong? Seemingly, the sense of wrongness is your opinion only. Now I'll allude to previous statements by Pro.

Rebuttals

"Listening to Netanyahu's defenders in the media (and that is pretty much all you get as objective reporters are yanked off the air), I'm struck by how Americans are indoctrinated into ignoring the most significant fact about Gaza."

This statement is undermined by the fact that Nentanyau does indeed have his share of critics, in America and elsewhere. There's also no evidence provided to suggest that the American population is indoctrinated into ignoring the most, or any, significant fact about Gaza.

"That is the cause of the "war." Yes, Israel has the "right" to defend itself but Palestinians have the "right" to resist occupation."

Gaza is not occupied. In fact, it has been a Palestinian controlled area since 2005 when all Jewish citizens were withdrawn. Likewise, I have also clarified that that territory lines in other parts of Israel (such as Jerusalem) are only UN armistice, so therefore, no land is "occupied" illegally.

"At the time Ariel Sharon withdrew the settlers, when the Palestinian Authority was still in charge of Gaza, he refused to coordinate Israel's withdrawal with Abbas who, despite his pleas, was not even told when the pullout would take place. Abbas wanted to ensure that the militants (who he effectively subdued in the West Bank) would not seize control. Sharon refused and the militants took over."

Do you have any additional evidence to support this assertion? If Abbas had wanted to fully ensure that no militants took over, as leader of the Palestinian Authority he could have. Israel did as it was advised by withdrawing from land and handing it over to Palestinian control. The fact also remains that Hamas was elected by the residents of Gaza themselves.

"Ultimately Gaza separated from the West Bank and Israel was free to enter Gaza at will, killing or imprisoning whoever it considered a threat, and, in the process, hundreds who weren't. Militants launched rockets at Israel and Israel responded, disproportionately as always."

Once more, no proof is presented. Because Gaza belongs to Hamas, Israel is not free to enter Gaza at will, and the only people whom are imprisoned or killed are militants who show an active threat. The response to rockets and missiles being fired at civilian targets is not also disproportionate, the issue is that civilians are assimilated with militants.

I'll also point out that there is nothing credible to suggest that there was any definitive knowledge of what happened the three Israeli teenagers that were kidnapped and killed. Hamas in fact later confessed to the murders and the culprit was caught by Israeli forces.

"They are supporting Netanyahu for one reason alone: ethnic solidarity."

Evidently you're unaware that Nentanyahu receives a considerable amount of criticism by Jews worldwide and by those in Israel, not for the reason that you'd likely think, but because that they believe he is simply to indecisive when responding to rocket fire and most recently: the threat of underground tunnels to Israelis in the south.

The claim that questions listed in round one are not available to congress/media is also fallacious. Media criticism and coverage very suggests otherwise.

[1.] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

{2.] http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...




Debate Round No. 2
GufranLahib

Pro

GufranLahib forfeited this round.
Emilrose

Con

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
As anybody who's studied the Old Testament, the Torah, etc. ,
knows, the roots of the so-called "Israeli - Arab" conflict go back Millennia.
Check out 1st Kings, chapter 12.
(I think that Rehoboam was the King of Judah, over the Israelites. )

Do stop calling the Jews "Israel" - it's not the same thing at all.
We (Israel) aren't in the Middle East, at all,
There isn't any such thing as "Israel's right to exist" .
The so-called "Israelis" have been the terrorists, all along.
Nobody in their right mind would insist that the constant & deliberate offensive attacks by "Israel" were "Israel" defending itself & protecting its civilian population.
They were doing the same thing some years ago when they deliberately attacked, offensively, the PLO well outside the borders of "Israel" , using weapons supplied to them by the U.S. that were only supposed to be used for Defensive Purposes.
Menachem Begin went before the UN & insisted that they'd done nothing wrong-
they were just defending themselves.
NUTS!
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Accepted. What do you mean by "fellow jews"?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Tweka 2 years ago
Tweka
GufranLahibEmilroseTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff and arguments are not refuted.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
GufranLahibEmilroseTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture