The Instigator
RonPaulConservative
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
CuriousFear
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Israel belongs to the Jews

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
RonPaulConservative
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/10/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 305 times Debate No: 96000
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

CuriousFear

Con

I accept.
Likewise Allah is the Lord of the world, this means that the entire world should be controlled by Muslims because the world only belongs to the servants of Allah. Sarcasm intended.
Debate Round No. 1
RonPaulConservative

Pro


I am going to compare both sides of this debate between Muslims and Jews in regards to who the land of Canaan belongs to. We will start with who the Torah says it belongs to, and then move onto who the Qur’an says it belongs to.


WHO DOES THE TORAH SAY CANAAN BELONGS TO


Genesis 13:15 says:


For all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.


Genesis 17:8 says:


“Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”


WHO DOES THE QUR’AN SAY CANAAN BELONGS TO


Qur’an 17:104 says:


“And we said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.”


Qur’an 5:21 says:


“O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.”


Qur’an 10:93 says:


We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.”


CONCLUSION


Well, clearly this land belongs to the Jews!


CuriousFear

Con

The Children of Israel were given the land at a point at the time of Moses, but later on we find that the land simply belongs the One and Only Allah.
(Quran, Al-A'raf 7-128)
So that's that, Allah doesn't mean that 20th century Jews can start a program of ethnic cleansing and demolish a whole state into another Jewish state. There are currently 14-15 million Jews in the world, they have no right to pillage and bomb Palestinian homes.
You will have to use a lot more than some Bible verses. Can you justify the state of Israel in the real world? You haven't refuted my point that the world should be controlled by Muslims because Muslims are the servants of the Lord of the worlds either.

The Jews were persecuted due to the holocaust and they were "granted" Israel as a result of it, granted by Britain. Britain has no right to grant you somebody else's country. What right did Britain have to grant you somebody else's country?
Palestine had Jews, Muslims and Christians living side by side for centuries, peacefully without violence or discrimination. So Christian anti-semitism in Europe that caused one of the greatest crimes in history was not paid by the Christian countries who performed and practiced that holocaust, but was paid for by the very people who were innocent of such crimes.
Britain is a secular state. Secularism takes religion out of politics and Britain is the prince of the secular world. In November of 1917 Britain issues a declaration known as the Balfour declaration. It was the intention of the government to work for the establishment of a Jewish national home. Why would a secular state, which rules the world in secular states declare its intention for the establishment of a Jewish state in the holy land? Between 1918 and 1948, Britain ruled over Palestine on a mandate conferred by the league of nations. So not "Jews". In between came the interlude of Hitler, which speeded up the movement of the Jews in Europe to enter Palestine. In 1948, for the only time in British history there was no legal transfer of power to the successor state. So the Zionist state was created, the European Jewish state of Israel. Israel's law is democracy, which is totally against the law of the Torah. The Jews of today are not the chosen people, how can they return to a land they were never in to begin with?
Let's take a look at facts instead of the Holy Books. I also want you to justify Israel's crimes and violations of international law.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 2
RonPaulConservative

Pro

Check the debate setting my freind, this debate was classified in the "religion" category, so the whole point of this debate was over religion! Now, G-d doesn't change and would not alter his word since Psalm 89:34 says:
"I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered."
Furthermore, the Tanakh says that G-d gave the Israelits Canaan FOREVER. And G-d does not lie- if you want to say that he does, please, go be an atheist or satanist or some other religion- don't call yourself a Muslim.
Another thing, the Israelis did not bomb the Palestinians, that was the United States. There wasn't a conflict before we did that, in fact millions of Karaite Jews moved into Israel during the Middle Ages without having any problems. And if what you are saying is trrue, and the Israelis did bomb palestinians, they should know better, and they ought to be ashamed of themselves, because the Torah says in Leviticus 19:34:
"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."
Exodus 22:21:
"You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
But-the land still belongs to the Jews, the war crimes of a Talmudic Zionist governance does not diminish the rights of the Jewish people. Truth be told these guys aren't even following Judaism, they're going off of the Talmud, which says something very contrary to what the Tanakh says in Sanhedrin 57a. Most of these guys are atheists and are oppressing Karaite Jews simply for obeying the Tanakh.

Just because the Mexican Goveronment is corrupt or the Chinese goveronment burns students alive for wanting a fair democracy, doesn't mean that Mexicans or Chinese People are these evil monsters who need to be killed. It also isn't grounds to undermine both what the Tanakh AND Qur'an say because you hate them.
CuriousFear

Con

Sure whatever, let's ignore all the crimes done by Israel for the sake of argument. Whether the holy land belongs to the Jews or not, Britain had no right to give you somebody else's country, no matter what the scripture says. It's like Italy telling Britain that Britain is actually part of Italy because of the Roman Empire. It makes no sense. The first people who started this zionist cult were atheists so to possibly claim that the Israeli state is religiously motivated is ludicrous. Looking at the Israeli state today we find that it is corrupt when it comes to religious laws., just another clear and undeniable proof that this is not religiously motivated.

You claim that I can just take these words out of Psalm and just think that these are the words of God and that if I don't believe that they're the words of God, that I shouldn't call myself a Muslim. Well it's really hard to believe a word of this book when the Qur'an continuously states that the previous scriptures have been corrupted by men. The earliest complete Torah scroll dates from 1155-1225, if that's the case then there's no reason to see this as something authentic in any way. The famous Dead Sea scrolls don't date back to Moses either.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

European Jews are gentiles that converted to Judaism, they're not the children of Israel. They largely descend from the Turkish Khazars. Therefore modern "Jews" have no blood-link to the Biblical Israelites. Most of the Jewish scholars agree with this and according to a scientific study this hypothesis is correct.
http://www.texemarrs.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Leviticus 19:34 does not encourage Jews to perform ethnic cleansing in the 21st century. This book has many laws that Jews and the Israeli state don't obey so it's laughable when you quote from this book.
Debate Round No. 3
RonPaulConservative

Pro

Again, this is a religious debate, so we should be arguing who according to religion the Land of Israel belongs to, in which case I have demonstrated is the Jews according to both the Tanakh and Qur'an. In regards to the Ashkenazi, they are Jewish in origin but their genetics were diluted with Europeans for 2 millenium- either way Abraham, the father of the Nation of Israel, was himself a convert, so this is kind of irrelevant.
CuriousFear

Con

And I have shown you that the Jews today are not the Children of Israel. They're just people with a certain belief that is allowing genocide. You're saying that if someone "converts" to Judaism he or she can steal someone's land? That's an absolute joke.
Israel is Palestine and it is the land of the Palestinian people who have lived there for centuries. If anyone tries to claim that there was no Palestine before 1948, that person is a lunatic. The majority of countries in the world see Palestine as a state, except for most Western countries (and others here and there). Palestine was even a state in BC, the former Israeli prime-minister was born in Palestine according to his own birth certificate: https://en.wikipedia.org...
You can bring whatever from scripture, it doesn't matter. Jews and Israel today don't even follow their own laws, Jews are spiritually dead.

Basic principle of Israel's apartheid:
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

Israel's genocide in action:
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

How lovely. They just need to kill some innocent children to get their paycheck, what a job.

I know you disregard (and probably support) the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, but I've shown you why Palestine belongs to the Palestinians and not the Jews of wherever.

Just some average Israelis advocating genocide:
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...;
Debate Round No. 4
RonPaulConservative

Pro

They aren't converts. The original Ashkenazi Jews were from Israel, they just interbret with converts so now they're about 1% Israelite. Either way since they trace their lineage throuugh the mothers side they cant claim ownership to specific land since this land is passed down through the fathers side. They still have a right to be there.
Again, Zionist goveronment is not a fair representation of the Nation of Israel. The Jews have a right to move into Palestine.
CuriousFear

Con

Well you say that, but there isn't any proof for that claim. The evidence rather suggests that they are not descendants from a group of people that lived in 14 century BC and even if 1% of Jews are Israelites, that's about 140,000 people that have no right to take over a certain area with the help of secular nations. We've established that the Jews today are not the Children of Israel, that Israel is committing crimes against Palestinians, that Israel is violating international law and that Israel was established by atheists. We've seen Israeli children calling for the killing of Arabs and Palestinians, we've also seen that the Palestinians are put in a prison camps, Gaza and the West Bank. Regardless of what the Torah says, Palestine belongs to Palestinians and Israel shouldn't exist. Israel should be ruling with the land with the law of the Torah, not secular "democracy". Hypocrisy, that's the problem. Jews reject most commandments, but they don't mind ethnic cleansing and even if we take the few verses that can be interpreted one way or another, it's still vague.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by whiteflame 4 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Theguy1789// Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Pro (Arguments), 2 points to Pro (Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Pro starts this debate by showing how both the Bible and Qur'an agree that Israel belongs to the Jews, Con attempts to respond to this by saying that god took Israel away from the Jews and that it belongs to god, citing a Qur'an verse which doesn't say anything like that (and we would have to question the validity of the Qur'an even if it did). Pro rebuttals this by saying that god doesn't change his mind, and con attempts to respond by saying that the bible was corrupted, but cites no evidence for this whatsoever. Con then tries to argue a completely separate point by saying that Israel is evil, which has nothing to do with this debate, to sum this up- Pro shows that Israel belongs to the Jews as per the Qur'an and bible, con never responded to this with any reputable source, but rather attempts to discredit this argument by making unverified claims.

[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter specifically analyzes several points made by both sides and comes to a decision on the basis of those points. That is sufficient to award argument points.
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Posted by RonPaulConservative 4 months ago
RonPaulConservative
@Curiosfear
Stop with the conspiracy theories, he's a reform
Posted by whiteflame 4 months ago
whiteflame
CuriousFear, if someone threatened to kill you, contact Airmax about it, and you'll get some response. If you do nothing about it, then you can't expect action to take place.

As for the anti-zionist and anti-semetic comments, the removal of that vote was based on basic standards applied to the whole site, not to just this debate. I'd remove the same kind of vote if it was for your opponent.
Posted by CuriousFear 4 months ago
CuriousFear
Oh the moderator is a "Jew", well isn't that a surprise.
Posted by CuriousFear 4 months ago
CuriousFear
Filthy zionist moderators can't even let others make up their own mind, but when someone on the website threatens to kill me multiple times it's fine.
Posted by whiteflame 4 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Epicow2003// Mod action: Removed<

4 points to Con (Conduct, Arguments), 2 points to Pro (Sources). Reasons for voting decision: I voted, I chose I agree with RonPaulConservative, and I still do, but I think that CuriousFear did very well with sources. Which is the reason I did my vote this way!

[*Reason for removal*] The voter doesn't explain either point allocation. Stating that one side "did very well with sources" might be the start of a reason for awarding sources, but it's not a reason to award conduct or argument points. The voter is required to explain both if he wishes to award both. Also, if the voter wishes to award sources, he has to do more than simply state that one side had better sources. The sources must be compared at some level, and the reason for the decision should be clear.
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Posted by CuriousFear 4 months ago
CuriousFear
I'll accept it this Friday, I'm still shocked how anyone can support the tyrannical state of Israel that performs ethnic cleansing every day.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Theguy1789 4 months ago
Theguy1789
RonPaulConservativeCuriousFearTied
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro starts this debate by showing how both the Bible and Qur'an agree that Israel belongs to the Jews, Con attempts to respond to this by saying that god took Israel away from the Jews and that it belongs to god, citing a Qur'an verse which doesn't say anything like that (and we would have to question the validity of the Qur'an even if it did). Pro rebuttals this by saying that god doesn't change his mind, and con attempts to respond by saying that the bible was corrupted, but cites no evidence for this whatsoever. Con then tries to argue a completely separate point by saying that Israel is evil, which has nothing to do with this debate, to sum this up- Pro shows that Israel belongs to the Jews as per the Qur'an and bible, con never responded to this with any reputable source, but rather attempts to discredit this argument by making unverified claims.