The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
A341
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Israel can only be explained by Biblical history and is protected by God.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
A341
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/12/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 523 times Debate No: 60371
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ask any Arab where Israel came from, and they will refer you to the Bible story (his-story, the "his" in history is God, it's God's story. True history is God's story and God keeps the record of it) Abraham is the Father of the Arabs and the Jews, the Arabs hate the Jews because they think al of God's promises were supposed to legally go to the firstborn son.......Abraham's firstborn son was Ishmael by Sara's handmaiden, and Isaac's firstborn son was Esau. Jacob, who later was named Israel, purchased Esau's birthright for a bowl of soup, and even before that God had promised that the Jacob would be God's chosen one through which to bless all the families of the earth. People in general hate Isreal because Israel is a sign of God's promises being fullfilled, and most people hate God so animosity toward Israel always builds whenever their strength builds.
A341

Con

I questioned whether or not I should accept this debate at first because you seem completely and utterly nuts but I decided to anyway.

Where Arabs Think Israel Came From

You start off by saying that "Ask any Arab where Israel came from, and they will refer you to the Bible story" I actually asked an Arab I know where Israel came from and the response I got was a mutter about Satan.

Why The Arabs Hate The Jews

"Arabs hate the Jews because they think al of God's promises were supposed to legally go to the firstborn son"

Actually I think it might have more to do with the 90,785 (and counting) Arabs killed by Israel since 1948 [1]. Think about how many deaths in New York on September 11th riled up a similar amount of people, the amount of Arabs killed by Israel is 45 times that certainly reason enough for dislike not to mention the occupation or the threat of nuclear weapons that hangs over the middle east.

Your His-story Symbolism

History actually comes from the Greek word "histor" which means inquiry.

Problems With Biblical History

I have never been presented with evidence that there was an Israeli slavery in Egypt, if you think you can please do. Further more the Israelites appear to have descended from the native Canaanites of Judea. Also there appears to be no evidence for almost any of the dynasties said to have ruled Israel.

Apparent Lack of Protection

For the two thousand or so years since the Jews were forced from their native land by the Romans the Jews have endured nothing but hardship from the reconquista in Spain to near eradication in the German Third Reich. If they are indeed being protected by a higher power that higher power that higher power appears not even to be able to single task.

[1] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Well I guess you asked the wrong Arab. That same Arab would tell you the arabs are descended from Abraham. The nutso Arab you asked would probably say the Jews changed the story of Abraham's descendants., but I doubt you will find an Arab who will say they are not descended from Abraham. The Arab/Israeli conflict goes back to Abraham. The crazy Arabs say the Jews came from Satan because they hate them. Israel has been more than patient sitting there absorbing untold thousands of rockets launched indiscriminately at civilian populations; they should just wipe out Gaza completely and get rid of Hamas after sending all Gazan civilians a 24 hour notice to get out before the strip is leveled and all the arms smuggling tunnels dug up and destroyed.

While you may have found one brainwashed Arab who so hates the Jews that he says they are from Satan and not from human lineage like everybody else, you have not discounted the fact that Israel can only be explained by Biblical History. The Father of Israel is Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. You may discount the record of the slavery in Egypt, you may discount a lot of stories in the Bible. That does not mean your skepticism is correct, it only means you don't want to accept the historical record of the Jews which can only be explained by Biblical history. The Jews have now retaken some of the land promised to them by God, the land they were led captive out of after God gave the land to them. This is why the Arabs hate them. The promises of God to bless all of the families of the earth are through the Jews, and the crazy Arabs think they are going to steal God's promises and make you bow to them in the name of Allah. Why don't you go bow to them now? It sounds like you are on their side, maybe you have already bowed to them. If not, you probably will like any coward would do.

Israel is protected by God. They suffered under oppressive governments and were taken into captivity and dispersed throughout the nations of the world because of their rebellions against God, but God always keeps His promises and His promise is to glorify Himself through the Jews and He protects them because He said He would. God will bring them all back into joyful and willing service to Him one day, and Jesus Christ Himself will rule the world from Mt Zion. The world hates this idea, the Arabs hate the Jews, and as Jesus said, the world would hate me the same as they hated Him. I get a lot of hate on this site, the same way you are hating the Jews by implying they should sit there and not retaliate when their villages are attacked, Arab extremists enjoy hiding behind women and children and forcing civilian casualties as they try to inflame the world. Islam's goal is world domination, and the total destruction of the Jews. It's not going to happen. God will always defend Israel and there will always be a remnant of Jews until Jesus Christ returns to Mt Zion and the nations of the world will learn war no more, beat their spears into plows, and the lion will lay down with the lamb. People like you are either going to get right with God or be destroyed in their sins. I'm going to heaven with my sins forgiven, I have been bought and paid for by God's own blood in Jesus Christ. Your blood is on your own head if you think you can handle your own death. Be a good Muslim and say "God's name is Allah and Muhammad is his prophet" and maybe they won't cut your head off; but that won't get you out of paying for your sins in the fire of Hell if you don't get saved from it first. God loves you and He died in your place, paid for your sins so you could be forgiven and not have to pay in Hell. Why not believe on the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell?

Restating the topic of the debate which remains true: Israel can only be explained by Biblical history and is protected by God. This will always be true, is true, and always has been true ever since God made His covenant with Abraham.
A341

Con

"Well I guess you asked the wrong Arab. That same Arab would tell you the Arabs are descended from Abraham. The nutso Arab you asked would probably say the Jews changed the story of Abraham's descendants., but I doubt you will find an Arab who will say they are not descended from Abraham. The Arab/Israeli conflict goes back to Abraham. The crazy Arabs say the Jews came from Satan because they hate them."

Nope still getting "The ******* came from Satan".

Lets just think about this rationally for a moment. Before about 1920 Arab Jew relations were pretty good. Palestinian Jews and Arabs lived side by side without any hostilities [1]. In fact I can't find any examples of Arab Jew conflicts before the modern idea of Zionism came about in about 1890. If we go back even earlier into the middle ages most Jews (including some of my ancestors) lived under Arab rule in Morocco, In Barbary, in Egypt and some lived under Turkish rule in the Ottoman empire [2]. In fact when the Jews were forced out of Spain the Ottoman navy appeared on the shore of Spain and offered to take all of the Jews to prevent a massacre. So as you can see Jewish Muslim and Jewish Arab relations were very good before the modern era which effectively nullifies your statement that "The Arab/Israeli conflict goes back to Abraham.".

"Israel has been more than patient sitting there absorbing untold thousands of rockets launched indiscriminately at civilian populations; they should just wipe out Gaza completely and get rid of Hamas after sending all Gazan civilians a 24 hour notice to get out before the strip is leveled and all the arms smuggling tunnels dug up and destroyed."

Now this has no bearing on this debate but I should state that Israel had a missile defence system which has been able to shoot down everything Hamas has got [3]. Also the reason Gazan civilians are in Gaza is because Israel doesn't let them [4].

"You may discount the record of the slavery in Egypt"

There is no extra biblical record of slavery in Egypt, if you think there is please present it.

"you may discount a lot of stories in the Bible. That does not mean your skepticism is correct"

Skepticism is an attitude of doubt before adequate evidence is produced. You have not produced any evidence.

"Israel is protected by God. They suffered under oppressive governments and were taken into captivity and dispersed throughout the nations of the world because of their rebellions against God, but God always keeps His promises and His promise is to glorify Himself through the Jews and He protects them because He said He would."

There are many ethnic and religious groups that have been through similar oppression to the Jews some examples would be the Hindus [5], Armenians [6] and Native Americans/First Nations [7] are all of these cultures and religions protected by god as well?

"the same way you are hating the Jews by implying they should sit there and not retaliate when their villages are attacked"

I'm not implying, I'm saying directly. But what does this have to do with the debate at hand.

"Arab extremists enjoy hiding behind women and children and forcing civilian casualties as they try to inflame the world."

Look Arabs are also human ("If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?") they aren't these sudo-satanic bad guys who think of nothing but how to screw over the Jews, some Arabs hide behind civilians but those civilians they hide behind are also Arabs.

"Islam's goal is world domination, and the total destruction of the Jews. It's not going to happen."

Quran 2:62 "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.".

"God will always defend Israel and there will always be a remnant of Jews until Jesus Christ returns to Mt Zion and the nations of the world will learn war no more, beat their spears into plows, and the lion will lay down with the lamb. People like you are either going to get right with God or be destroyed in their sins. I'm going to heaven with my sins forgiven, I have been bought and paid for by God's own blood in Jesus Christ. Your blood is on your own head if you think you can handle your own death. Be a good Muslim and say "God's name is Allah and Muhammad is his prophet" and maybe they won't cut your head off; but that won't get you out of paying for your sins in the fire of Hell if you don't get saved from it first. God loves you and He died in your place, paid for your sins so you could be forgiven and not have to pay in Hell. Why not believe on the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell?"

Evidence?

[1] "At this time, the area was ruled by the British and both Arabs and Jews appeared to live together in some form of harmony in the sense that both tolerated then existence of the other." http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

[2] http://www.historyforkids.org...

[3] http://www.theweek.co.uk...

[4] http://web.archive.org...

[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[6] Barsoumian, Hagop (1997), "The Eastern Question and the Tanzimat Era

[7] http://www.cyberlearning-world.com...
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

The Koran is nothing but a book of lies fed to the Arabs so that Muhammad could make himself into a religious leader as he tried to escape from his life of being a desert robber and murderer. Muhammad knew most Arabs are raised on hatred for Israel, so he invented a religion to make the Arabs think that God favors them if they kill Jews and Christians. God will defend Israel as He always has. At times he has allowed punishments to fall on the Jews, but He still keeps a remnant of them and all of the promises of God still are fulfilled and will be fulfilled through Israel and the Jews. Jesus Christ will rule the world from Mt. Zion and nobody will be making anybody bow to Islam, and no Muslims will be killing any Jews or Christians any more. Islam is nothing but war and murder and God will defend Israel. The whole world is going to come against Israel and God Himself will wipe out their armies to defend His people, Israel.


Saying the Jews came from Satan is dumb. They came from Abraham, the same as Ishmael. Isaac wws born of Sara from Abraham after Ishmael was born of of Hagar, Sara's handmaiden. Esau and Jacob were Isaac's sons, Jacob's name was later changed to Israel. Israel can only be explained by Biblical history. Even when people try to change the Biblical story, they still use the Bible to suppor their twiisted version of the history of israel.
A341

Con

"The Koran is nothing but a book of lies fed to the Arabs so that Muhammad could make himself into a religious leader as he tried to escape from his life of being a desert robber and murderer."

Actually Muhammad was a very wealthy man married to the owner of one of the largest camel trains in Arabia [1] he was most certainly not a desert robber or murderer.

"Muhammad knew most Arabs are raised on hatred for Israel, so he invented a religion to make the Arabs think that God favors them if they kill Jews and Christians."

Now do you remember when I quoted this to you last time "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." [2] That is from the Koran and it says that Christians and Jews will go to heaven but if that is not enough for you, Muhammad himself wrote a constitution during his time as governor of Medina with many protections for its large Jewish population for instance in article 20 the constitution states:

"A Jew, who obeys us (the state) shall enjoys the same right of life protection (as the believers do), so long as they (the believers) are not wronged by him. (the Jews), and he does not help (others) against them." [3].

Muhammad was by no means an anti-semite. Also I challange you to show me one Quranic verse that allows for the killing of Jews and Christians.

"God will defend Israel as He always has. At times he has allowed punishments to fall on the Jews, but He still keeps a remnant of them and all of the promises of God still are fulfilled and will be fulfilled through Israel and the Jews. Jesus Christ will rule the world from Mt. Zion and nobody will be making anybody bow to Islam, and no Muslims will be killing any Jews or Christians any more. Islam is nothing but war and murder and God will defend Israel. The whole world is going to come against Israel and God Himself will wipe out their armies to defend His people, Israel.

Saying the Jews came from Satan is dumb. They came from Abraham, the same as Ishmael. Isaac wws born of Sara from Abraham after Ishmael was born of of Hagar, Sara's handmaiden. Esau and Jacob were Isaac's sons, Jacob's name was later changed to Israel. Israel can only be explained by Biblical history. Even when people try to change the Biblical story, they still use the Bible to suppor their twiisted version of the history of israel."

Look please if you want to have a debate you must provide evidence. This is just you stating your opinion. Oh and the Biblical family tree which involves all the people of the earth descending from Noah and his wife is genetically impossible [4].

[1] Martin Lings: "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources"

[2] Quran 2:62

[3] http://www.constitutionofmadina.com...

[4] http://genetics.thetech.org...
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

You are just plain anti-semitic. You hate the Jews because you are a hater. You have no explaination for the Jews other to say they came from Satan, and that's dumb. The only explanation for the origin and continuing people of Israel is the Bible. If you think they are not protected by God, go ahead and attack them, keep on saying you have the right to live outside of the fire of Hell, and see where you end uo,

Muhammed was s thief and a liar. You can believe the Quran if you want to. It's from Hell, and that is where you will end up following Muhammed. Sorry. You need to get saved.
A341

Con

You are just plain anti-semitic. You hate the Jews because you are a hater."

I am part Jewish.

"You have no explaination for the Jews other to say they came from Satan, and that's dumb."

I don't believe the Jews came from Satan that was the response of a fairly devout Muslim friend of mine that I thought it was worth mentioning as it wasn't the response you said an Arab would give.

If you want to hear a brief history of the Jewish people here it is:

Around 1200 B.C. the people that we now refer to as Jews were Canaanites who rose up and created their own culture exterminating the other Canaanites [1].

In the following years a few unique tribal cultures under two kingdoms (Judea and Israel) [2]

Then King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon defeated the Jews in the battle of Carchemish. After this many Jews were transported to Babylon [3].

During this exile most of the Jewish holy scripture was written which is why it has the constant theme of exile and return [4].

The Persian emperor Cyrus the Great then ended the exile to create a barrier between his empire and Egypt [5].

During the next few hundred years Israel became a battle ground for the post Alexandrian empires [6].

Then the Romans overtook Israel and after a few years of hostile peace the Romans fought off a rebellion and exiled the Jews to all corners of their empire, this is called the Jewish Diaspora [7].

The Jews became integrated into Christian society as moneylenders [8] Though many chose to live under the more tolerant Arab and Islamic rulers (this kind of destroys your narrative) [9].

In the late nineteenth centuries the idea of Zionism was thought up and many Jews began to migrate to Palestine where they lived peacefully alongside the Arabs [10].

After 1948 the Jewish Arab hostilities began when the Arabs refused a land deal [11] and this is where we find ourselves today.

You see there was the history of the Jewish people all explained without any need for a god and with actual evidence backing it.

Peoples and cultures can survive for millenia just take the example of the Nubian peoples, they have survived for 9000 years [12]

"Muhammed was s thief and a liar. You can believe the Quran if you want to. It's from Hell, and that is where you will end up following Muhammed. Sorry. You need to get saved."

I do not believe the Quran or the Bible or the Torah, Avesta, Mabinogion, Rig Veda, Brahma Samhita or Oahspe. I do not believe because I have been presented with no evidence in their favour. I have already shown you that Muhammed was neither a liar nor a theif and if you want to disagree site your evidence.

[1] Mark Smith: "The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel"

[2] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

[3] The Oxford History of the Biblical World, ed. by Michael D Coogan. Pub. by Oxford University Press, 1999. pg 350

[4] Blenkinsopp, Joseph (1992). The Pentateuch: An introduction to the first five books of the Bible.

[5] http://www.biu.ac.il...

[6] http://www.slate.com...

[7] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

[8] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

[9] http://books.openedition.org...

[10] http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

[11] http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

[12] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

You are ignorning the fact that Abraham was the father of the Jews. The Arab you asked where they came from, the one who said they came from Satan, is obvously a hater and his answer was dumb. If you accept that answer, you have to be dumb. I think that Arab was just plain lying. Lying is a cultural thing among Muslims. Ask them, but of course they will lie to you and you will accept whatever dumb answer they give you because you hate the Jews. Being part Jewish does not mean you don't hate them. You talk like you hate them, so i can only conclude that you are blind in your hatred against Israel.....you and your Arab friends who say the Jews came from Satan.

Israel should just go and level the whole Gaza strip after giving them notice of the upcoming event so they have time to flee. The problem is, nobody wants the Palestinians. They could easily be taken in by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and other Arab nations. They are just pawns and Hamas uses them as human shields thinking they are being martyrs for their murderous faith in Allah. Only a crazy person can hide behind women and children to attack women and children and think they are doing service to God.

God will protect the Jews. Hamas and all the other haters will lose. Hitler could not exterminate them and you never will. God will exterminate you before He allows you to exterminate Israel. The whole world will come agaisnt israel in battle one day, and God will destroy all of their armies, and the blood will run as deep as the horses bridles. Jesus Christ will rule the world from Mt Zion. Islam will be gone from heaven and earth. Islam is murder. God hates it.

There is no explanation for the Jews outside of the Bible. Your explanation of the cananites is still a Biblical refrerence. If you think God does not protect Israel, fight againt Israel and see if they remain when you are gone.

I know you don't like any of this stuff. That's just too bad for you.
A341

Con

"You are ignorning the fact that Abraham was the father of the Jews."

Ok if you want to claim that Abraham was the "father of the Jews" then you have to provide some evidence. In fact you have to provide some evidence that he existed in any way at all. From what I have found there seems to not be a mention of Abraham for fifteen hundred years after his claimed existence.

"I think that Arab was just plain lying. Lying is a cultural thing among Muslims. Ask them, but of course they will lie to you and you will accept whatever dumb answer they give you because you hate the Jews."

Look I explained my understanding of Jewish history last time. You are making a big deal over one rebuttal while not addressing any of the substantive arguments. From the admittedly fairly few Muslims I know personally they seem much more honest than the Christians I know. I have no data or studies to back this up (I have looked) but I reckon that you don't either.

Also I really don't hate the Jews, as I said before I am myself a Jew by birth and I also have many relatives who are practicing Jews who do not accept the legitimacy of the Bresheit as a historic account.

"You talk like you hate them, so i can only conclude that you are blind in your hatred against Israel.....you and your Arab friends who say the Jews came from Satan. "

This line made me burst into fits of laughter. I do not have blind hatred of Israel and even if I did this would not make change anything as the last time I checked this debate was on "Israel can only be explained by Biblical history and is protected by God.".

"Only a crazy person can hide behind women and children to attack women and children and think they are doing service to God."

Yes but you must remember those who they are hiding behind are the real Palestinian people.

"God will protect the Jews. Hamas and all the other haters will lose. Hitler could not exterminate them and you never will. God will exterminate you before He allows you to exterminate Israel. The whole world will come agaisnt israel in battle one day, and God will destroy all of their armies, and the blood will run as deep as the horses bridles. Jesus Christ will rule the world from Mt Zion. Islam will be gone from heaven and earth. Islam is murder. God hates it."

I have no interest in killing any Jews. And what evidence can you site for this?

"Your explanation of the Canaanites is still a Biblical reference."

Really? You think that the bible says that the Israelites were a faction of Canaanites who changed after the uprising of the sea people? I though the bible said that the Israelites were Egyptian slaves who ran away (by the way there is no evidence for this) and exterminated the Canaanites. It most certainly doesn't state that the Jews were (are?) Canaanites.

No the evidence for a Jewish Canaanite link is based off of the cultural similarities, the shared gods (the Jews were originally polytheistic [1]) and lack of any other reasonable explanation.

[1] Mark S. Smith: "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel’s Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts"
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by The_Immortal_Emris 2 years ago
The_Immortal_Emris
I almost accepted the debate, then I read the opening assertion and thought better of it. Best to not waste time on the inane and insane.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 2 years ago
MrJosh
LifeMeansGodIsGoodA341Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct because PRO didn't even seem to try to address his resolution; Arguments because CON demonstrated the counterpoint even though he had no burden to do so; sources because CON sourced his points, while PRO just made assertions.