The Instigator
Emilrose
Pro (for)
Winning
19 Points
The Contender
Magikarpediem
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Israel does not Belong to the Palestinians

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Emilrose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,194 times Debate No: 67968
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (3)

 

Emilrose

Pro

Thanks in advance to Magikarpediem for showing further interest in the Israel/Palestine topic and accepting this debate.

I will be arguing that the nation of Israel does in fact not belong to the Palestinians, who discounting Israeli Arabs, largely reside in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza. Con will be arguing the opposite, that the land of Israel does belong to the Palestinians and that they technically should have rightful ownership of it. Shared BoP.

In order to determine who indeed has a stronger claim (Israel or Palestine), a historical basis is required for both of our arguments.


Definitions:

Belong

1. to be owned by, be the property of, be the possession of, be in the ownership of, to be held by.

2. to be bound to (a person, place, or club) by ties of affection, dependence,allegiance, or membership.

I will also highlight that we are discussing "belonging" in the exclusive sense, in that Palestinians have a full historical connection to the land and that they should have full political sovereignty over it.

First round acceptance.




Magikarpediem

Con

I appreciate the opportunity to debate such a seasoned debate like Emilrose on this subject.
I accept and wish the best of luck to my opponent
Debate Round No. 1
Emilrose

Pro

Thanks Con. Good luck to you too.

(C1) Origins of the name "Palestine".

The first contention in Palestinians possessing rightful and historical ownership over the land of Israel is the very fact that "Palestine" has no Arab origins and derives from the word "Philistine", which was the name of an ancient Aegean people who were closely related to the Greeks. "Israel" (or rather, "Yisrael") has origins that date back almost 4000 years and was the official name for the land until the Jewish Bar Kokhba revolt of 132 CE, when the Romans regained the areas of Jerusalem and Judea and renamed them to "Palaestina." Never has there been in any historical record an officially recognized "Palestinian" person or "Palestinian" ethnic or national group. The name has no Arab origins.

(C2) Historical Jewish presence in the land

On the contrary to Arab residence, there has been a Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years, something that historical literature and vast archaeological findings clearly establish. No other group that has entered the land of Israel (even prior to Jewish residence) has ever lived there throughout such an extended period of time or maintained a deep historical and cultural connection to it, one of which that I'll point out again, is almost 4000 years old. There is a widespread assumption that all Jews were expelled after forced exile by the Romans, which is historically incorrect. While large numbers of Jews were expelled from their land (including the many numbers that were killed by the Romans), a portion remained and continued their existence in Israel; including large members of tribe of Judah. Throughout the progressing years, other remnants of tribes also returned to Israel. Though small in numbers, it is still evidence of the fact that not all Jews did diminish and then suddenly return in 1948. with the only existing population group being Arabs. The Eastern Jews that did not return to Israel until the 20th century, resided in other neighboring Arab countries. The Sephardim, who after exile had originally settled in Spain, in fact began returning to the land as early as the 12th century; which again shows that a Jewish presence in Israel has existed since the very time the Jewish presence there began. Even small numbers of Ashkenazi Jews began returning from the 18th century onwards, not to the extent where the land could be completely re-cultivated or rebuilt, but a portion nevertheless.

One need not even look to religion or biblical belief to establish that on a factual basis, Jews have an extremely long historical connection to Israel, one that has been strongly upheld throughout centuries.

(C3) Arab Immigration to Palestine

One of the most important issues to address is the belief that Palestinian Arabs have deep historical roots to the land, ones that happen to greatly outweigh the roots that Jewish people possess. While it's noted that Arabs, particularly with being from surrounding countries, have been in the land of Israel, it is by no means as significant a number as people think. The very fact that these Arabs do originate from other lands (and not as far back as people would expect) is the reason as to why Israel does not belong to them. The entire Middle East is made of predominantly Arab Muslim countries, this includes vast areas of land inhabited by countries such as Egypt, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, just to name a few. The exact number stands at (discounting Muslim north African countries) at 16 countries. The tiny land that is Israel is the only non-Muslim nation within the region with the only non-Muslim majority. More importantly, it is the only country that the Jewish people have ever had any political sovereignty or independence over. Given these facts, it does seem rather questionable that Arabs would maintain such large opposition to Israel and not be more accommodating to the Arabs that originally derive from their lands.

To expound on Arab immigration to Palestine further, I will continue to demonstrate that large numbers of Palestinians are descendants of Arabs that immigrated to Palestine in the 18th-20th century (invariably the same time as Ashkenazi Jews) and that they profress no real claim of belonging to Israel, or as they see it, Palestine. In order to assert a claim over anything, particularly if you insist that the claim is historical and exclusively yours, certain criteria must be met Such as having been a part of that land for a historically sustained period of time, having ethnic or religious roots to that land, maintaining a cultural connection to that land, and perhaps most significantly, actually having sovereign ownership over that land, either in the present time or in history.

However, Palestine was never a sovereign country that officially belonged to an Arab Palestinian people.

Arab population growth in Palestine:




Starting from 1820 and going to 1940, here is a demographic chart that covers the rate of Arab population within Jerusalem.
It's clearly evident that the population level begins at a very small percentage and progressively develops into a large number.
If Palestine did in fact historically belong to Palestinian Arabs, and if large portions (such as the existing 21st century statistics) did inhabit the land, naturally there would not have been such a rapid increase from 1820-1940. The only viable answer for this is the Arab immigration to Palestine that experienced particularly prominent levels during British occupation in the land when many were employed as migrant workers. European Jews that began returning in that period also provided an inviting economic prospect for Arabs locating to Palestine and the potential for future jobs. This should particularly be taken into consideration given the fact that these Arabs came from poor communities with extremely low economic prospects.


There numerical difference in Arab and Jewish workers within Palestine:



Again, if the existing Arab population was as large as it is proclaimed to be the number of Arab workers would surely overtake the number of Jewish.

As highlighted previously when discussing the economic prospects, it's visible that there are in fact Arab businesses and factories, but again: not a percentage that outweighs those that are Jewish. Every single comparison made from 1939-1948 is higher in the Jewish number and both show an increasing migration to the country.

Another example of this Arab immigration can be summarized in the words of British Prime Minister at the time, Winston Churchill:

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country (Palestine) and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewrycocould lift up the Jewish population. "

The British birth census for Palestine in 1931 also states, those who were non-Jews also listed as their "birthplaces" at least twenty-four different countries, in addition to the Americas and Europe. In Jerusalem alone, twenty different places of birth (outside the Americas and Europe) were reported by the Muslims; those plus another four countries were listed by those categorized as Christians, who were likely predominantly Arab Christians who came from surrounding areas of the Middle East.

Even Arab news outlets at the time reported on the vast number of Arabs immigrating into Palestine. Such as Syrian newspaper "La Syrie", for example. In 1934 interview with Tewfik Bey El-Hurani, Governor of the Hauran. Governor El-Hurani stated that:

"In the last few months from 30,000 to 36,000 Hauranese [Syrian] had entered Palestine and settled there."

30,000 to 36,000 Syrians migrants settling in Palestine within a few months alone, is a considerably substantial number. It should also be kept in mind that these Syrian migrants would've multiplied and that their descendants would now considered Palestinians.

Would you claim that Israel belongs to them?


British reports also took note and were occasionally obliged by the prevalence of "Syrian countrymen in Palestine" to acknowledge the "illegal ... large proportion of Arab immigrants from the Hauran."

Likewise, the British Permanent Mandates Commission also specifically addressed the case of illegal Arab immigrants from "Trans-Jordan." Which was noted as having the potential for "leading to abuse" based on the fact that "a number of them remained in the country."

Alluding again to Arab observation of the increasing migration, an Arab officials' report stated the following:

"More Arabs illegally entered and remained in Palestine than the total number of Jews for twice that length of time in 1934 who were "approved" to immigrate into their designated "Jewish National Home."

In 1935, the Annual report on deportation concluded that of 2,455 recently deported, a number 2,152 were "non-Jews. " Which is almost the entire statistic.

Other British reports explicitly commented that there was an: "uuncontrolled influx of illegal Arab immigrants from Egypt, Trans-Jordan and Syria."

Sources:

[1.] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

[2.] http://www.think-israel.org...

[3.] http://www.bje.org.au...

[4.] http://www.eretzyisroel.org...

[5.] http://www.theettingerreport.com...

[6.]
http://www.kr8.co.il...

[7.] http://www.eretzyisroel.org...
Magikarpediem

Con

Magikarpediem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Emilrose

Pro

Forfeit by Con, no rebuttals to be made.
Magikarpediem

Con

Magikarpediem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Emilrose

Pro

Vote Pro.
Magikarpediem

Con

Magikarpediem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
Israel does not belong to Palestine? You mean the Palestinians I suppose. Well, I think that since Israel has occupied the land since they conquered it from the Canaanite tribes that inhabited it, and the Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire (this was after the Romans had conquered Israel), The Jews and Muslims should share the land. They should not divide the land between themselves (this would only lead to future conflicts). But they should work together for a better future for themselves and their children. They should still operate their government under the Jewish State of Israel, but everyone should work together for the common good of society. The Jews do deserve the right to their own state, but they should work together with the Muslims to create a better society. Sure they may disagree about some things-but instead of pulling out guns and bombs and assembling their military's, they should discuss the issue in the open. If they cannot come to an agreement or a compromise-then they should move on. Live in peace with one another.

But to answer your question-no, Israel does not currently belong to the Palestinians. It used to, until Israel reclaimed their homeland. Now that they have though, The Palestinians should just act like Israeli citizens and work for the common good of society, as should the Jews. They should have equal rights, they should both work to have positions in the government, and they should both be able to live in peace with each other.
Posted by garet122 2 years ago
garet122
Emilrose, you are so pathetic at disseminating your false propaganda about Palestine. You think that following the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land (in the seventh century) the population just *disappeared* from historical record and the Arabs settled there.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Will do.
Posted by Magikarpediem 2 years ago
Magikarpediem
yeh? 2500,the better the better
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Or 2500, if you want.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
How does having a judge system with the requirement of 2000 elo sound?
Posted by Magikarpediem 2 years ago
Magikarpediem
thank you
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Will do later, I'm using my phone atm.
Posted by Magikarpediem 2 years ago
Magikarpediem
Can we please repost this debate with judges
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Many Jews have distinguishable physical characteristics and also share similar dna..so it's kinda both.

More than anything though I'd state it's a religion, to keep it simple. A lot of Jews prefer to avoid being identified as race..for obvious reasons.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
EmilroseMagikarpediemTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Magikarpediem Forfeit. Automatic loss.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
EmilroseMagikarpediemTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by warren42 2 years ago
warren42
EmilroseMagikarpediemTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit