The Instigator
Arganger
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Wirbelfeld
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

It Isn't Wrong to Stay Seated for the National Anthem.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Wirbelfeld
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/25/2017 Category: Sports
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,183 times Debate No: 104142
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (3)

 

Arganger

Pro

I am creating this out of irritation with people raging about insignificant football players choosing not to stand for the national anthem.

First off tell me why you think it is wrong to stay seated for the national anthem.
Wirbelfeld

Con

In this argument, I will only be arguing the ethical and moral stance of standing for the national anthem. Although the disrespect for our anthem is repulsive to me, obviously people have the legal right to do what they choose when our national anthem plays. MY argument will revolve around two main points:
The national anthem creates unnecessary division in an already divided country.
Taking a stand against the national anthem is counterproductive

The national anthem is a symbol of unity in this greatly divided country. With the rise of extreme partisanship recently, there are not many symbols left that demonstrates unity.

Sports have also been a symbol of unity in America. Almost every subject in the U.S. has been unnecessarily politicized, however, traditionally sports have been a place for unity. Although everyone have their favorite sports team, there has been nothing political about tossing a ball around while people from all over the political spectrum can come together to root for their favorite team.

The recent events have both politicized sports and the national anthem, tearing us apart further in this time of division. Kneeling during the national anthem is either a political statement or an unpatriotic display; neither of which is defensible. Politicizing the national anthem is wholly unnecessary. There are many opportunities to demonstrate your political views, however having a single point of unification is necessary to hold the country together. These recent events have torn this point in half. Kneeling during the national anthem is an active stance against unity, even though you make it seem as a insignificant act.

I may expand on this second argument later if necessary. However it is thus:
It is paradoxical to take a stance against a symbol that represents your freedom to take a stance against anything you choose. Because of this, it is hard for people to take your stance seriously when you disrespect the symbols of democracy and freedom. It's hard for people to look past the act of disrespecting the flag and anthem and see your message which makes the whole action meaningless.
Debate Round No. 1
Arganger

Pro

Why to you is it a symbol of unity? To me it is a symbol of loyalty to the country itself, of which no one should have to be. If someone doesn't want to rise for the flag, it simply shows discontent with the state of the country, and is better than feeling like a lying fraud by standing.

Even in the case of sports, no player should feel his personal choice to show discontent is rude. I have not stood for the flag since I was four or five, and I would continue to not stand for the flag regardless of my future employment. For a sports player, the game is their platform and life, they have just as much moral right to express their views in life as any other.

There is nothing wrong with being unpatriotic, to say so means that having no loyalty for your country is bad, but if a country has given someone no reason in their mind to be loyal, why is that ever wrong? Loyalty is something meant to be hard won, not something given because of place of birth. This very country was founded on a moment of disloyalty.

The act cannot be completely useless, here we are talking about it aren't we? Not standing for the anthem was meant to get people talking and be noticed and that protest seems to of been working so far.

I believe instead of getting mad at someone for choosing not to stand up, we should be willing to hear why even if we don't agree.
Wirbelfeld

Con

Pro has brought up his own personal feelings as an argument. I have no way of refuting his arguments because they lack reasoning and are simply opinion based.

That being said, Pro's opinions do not matter, and nor do mine. What makes the flag a symbol of unity is not because of the opinion's of two different people, but instead the opinions of the majority of the country. I cannot wave a nazi flag outside and claim that to me it is an icon of peace and love and expect no backlash in return. The only thing that matters here is the effect on the population and society as a whole.

People are patriotic because they love their country and the values. To say you are unpatriotic does not only mean you have no loyalty for your countries, but also means you have content for the country's values. IF that is the case, move somewhere else. Patriotism is not blind love for your country, but instead is love for the values of the country, and hope that the conditions may be further improved.

Look at the civil rights movement from the sixties. These brave men and women raised the flag high. This didnt mean they thought that this country was perfect; they meant it as a symbol of the values of this country. These people used the flag as a symbol of unity. They did not burn the flag or disrespect the flag.
These people were obviously not content with the state of the country, but they did not show discontent by disrespecting patriotic symbols. They used these symbols to their advantage and as support for their cause.
Debate Round No. 2
Arganger

Pro

Expecting anyone who disagrees with this country to move makes little since. This country was founded on rebelling against Britain, on a very act of being disloyal, this is simply a fact. Even if that wasn't true, in my case I come from a military family most of which is very loyal to the US, and the idea of moving assumes one has loyalty to another country. It is unreasonable to want someone to pack up and move leaving behind there entire life just because they do not agree with this country, nor choose to be loyal to it.

The meaning of a symbol has nothing to do with the masses but rather the interpretation is up to the individual. In North Korea the american flag is taught to symbolize violent pigs. Even if you were visiting the country of North Korea, I doubt you would change your views of the flag. Not everyone views the flag as a symbol of unity, I sure know I don't, and for me to stand for that flag, and for the anthem would be a lie and I would feel like a dishonest fool.

This debate is two things, relating to philosophy and sports, both of which require opinions to even exist. Both of our opinions matter.

The early civil rights groups had their right to use the flag as they wished. They may have chosen to respect and cherish this country, but that doesn't and shouldn't dictate how others show discontent. They might of disagreed with the country but they still held loyalty to it and that's okay. Others don't have that same loyalty and that is okay as well, not everyone has to.

The football players may or may not have loyalty to this country, but their point is that they don't believe the country is unified, so they don't want to pretend it is. Not standing for the flag is about as non violent of a protest as you can get, they are hurting no one and nothing, at it's most basic they are not standing up. Just like a countries most basic is a line someone drew in the sand, and at a flag's most basic it is a piece of cloth.

Being unpatriotic is not wrong.

Disagreeing with your countries values is not wrong.

Choosing to not be loyal is not wrong.

Sitting down is not wrong.

So what could be wrong? For me my loyalty lies to God alone, and I plan to keep it that way.

I look forward to the vote. Fin.
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Now of course some of my debate, especially before this round was likely worked up, but let me put it into context as to why. Family and "friends" were complaining about people not standing to the flag on Facebook, saying it's disrespectful to veterans and dead soldiers to not stand for the flag. They probably were not thinking of this, but my father died in Iraq, in saying that they were accusing me of being disrespectful to my own dead father and it is just messed up that I have to hear that idea and be accused of that.
Wirbelfeld

Con

This country was founded on rebelling against Britain, not for the sake of rebelling, but because our fundamental values conflicted with those of Great Britain.

Advocating against patriotism and respect for the country does not have to be considered a bad thing, however, advocating against patriotism is advocating for the dissolution of this nation, or a change in its fundamental values.

The meaning of a symbol has everything to do with the masses. You would not theoretically protest the government in North Korea using an American flag, you would use symbols that are meaningful to the people who you are trying to convince. IF your intention is to bring attention to a subject, don't use imagery that would alienate your audience. In this way, it hurts your cause which thus makes it nonsensical to do so.

Pro claims to be unpatriotic. However, pro fails to demonstrate why this is the case, i.e. which fundamental values of American society that he so vehemently disagrees with.

Pro has turned this argument into a personal one. For that, I have no defense. I cannot tell you what your values are, I can only observe the impact specific actions have upon a society. Something 'wrong' to him is simply whatever matches his values. Throughout this debate, I have given multiple perspectives on the impact of kneeling before the national anthem. Since Pro has not brought up any further points I thus conclude my argument.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 8 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
I wasn't implicating that, Wirbelfeld.
Just to stop letting the power of words affect you. If someone calls me a slut, b*tch, ugly, etc., I could care less. Why? Cause it's a word. It's not doing sh*t to affect me because I won't give it the power to.
Giving people what they want while also complaining about what they are doing is quite possibly the smartest method they (the football players) could come up with. You people are just feeding right into this, giving them all the attention they crave and getting angry about what they're doing. While also not noticing that you are playing right into their hand, doing exactly what they want and expect. So a big round of applause for you guys.

This is just hysterical.
Posted by Arganger 9 months ago
Arganger
"The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them."
Posted by TeenDebater0236 9 months ago
TeenDebater0236
You're right, no man can serve two masters etc. etc. In this case, let's say the two masters are God and America. You choose to serve God. If you choose to serve God, then again, let's place my earlier comment here. Serving God results in submitting yourself to America. There's just no way around that. Again, if the government says to do something that is absolutely against God's word, don't do it. However, I find no evidence that standing for the National Anthem is against God's word. If you are having a problem of worshipping the National Anthem, then perhaps you should take that up with God. I guarantee you if you truly meant it, he'd fix it. I don't mean to sound rude or anything, just stating.

If that is your choice to not stand for the National Anthem, well then, that's your choice! Repeating myself, I disagree with your comment, "My loyalties only lie with God". I hope mine do and because of this I strongly disagree with your side of the debate.

Either way, not standing up for the National Anthem when to the government, it is deemed a sign of respect, is wrong and standing up for the National Anthem while having a wrong spirit is also wrong.

I hope you're getting the point that your comment about where your loyalties lie just doesn't qualify as truth.
Posted by Arganger 9 months ago
Arganger
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth." Replace "Wealth" with America and you have how I feel. I will not show myself loyal to this country, and that isn't against the law any how.

For me, to stand for the anthem, or say the pledge of allegiance would be to have two masters, and to stand would be a lie and break Gods law.
Posted by TeenDebater0236 9 months ago
TeenDebater0236
If a person were begrudgingly obeying the law, then that person must begrudgingly be following God. If a person was loyal to God, that person would be loyal to God's word, which says what I stated before. Example: In the Bible, Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego, were very loyal to the king, but when he commanded them to bow before his image, they politely disobeyed because it went against God's law. They didn't disobey with fanfare and loud rebellions. They simply didn't bow down and they submitted to the punishment. If you really looked into this Bible story, you'd see that while the guards were leading the 3 men to the fiery furnace, the guards died from the heat while still leading them. It was that hot. But even then, Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego went on. They threw themselves into the fiery furnace, submitting themselves to the King's punishment. Because of all this, I cannot agree with your statement.
Posted by Arganger 9 months ago
Arganger
TeenDebater0236 There is a difference between begrudgingly obeying the law, and loyalty.
Posted by TeenDebater0236 9 months ago
TeenDebater0236
I don't see how Pro's loyalties can only lie with God when the Bible, which he narrated, specifically tells us to always obey the government, even when it treats us unfairly or unjustly. The only time we disobey the government is when it goes against God, and even then, we accept the punishment. Pro's statement just doesn't make sense.
Posted by TeenDebater0236 9 months ago
TeenDebater0236
I don't see how Pro's loyalties can only lie with God when the Bible, which he narrated, specifically tells us to always obey the government, even when it treats us unfairly or unjustly. The only time we disobey the government is when it goes against God, and even then, we accept the punishment. Pro's statement just doesn't make sense.
Posted by Arganger 9 months ago
Arganger
Fair vote, I need to not make debates while on a tangent. Nd2400.

Can you vote on this? It wasn't a tangent. http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Wirbelfeld 9 months ago
Wirbelfeld
@Bitch_Goddess so in order to have a perfect society we should just remove all offensive terms from the dictionary, or even better, just assign new happy and positive definitions to them!
We have all been so stupid! Lets just have the dictionary makers redefine the 'n word' and all other slurs and swear words.
You act as if the whole world is just one big kindergarten and we are disciplining children.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Outplayz 9 months ago
Outplayz
ArgangerWirbelfeldTied
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Reasons for voting decision: For me to vote here, i need to figure out which side is right about the flag.. and con said one thing that stands out above the rest: "What makes the flag a symbol of unity is not because of the opinion's of two different people, but instead the opinions of the majority of the country." I believe this is the case overall. If Pro wanted to stick with... it's "personally" not wrong, his arguments would make sense. I personally don't stand sometimes either... doesn't mean i don't love what it stands for. So, i agree he on this point "If someone doesn't want to rise for the flag, it simply shows discontent with the state of the country" Yes, but "personally" ... If one see's the majority not define it that way, but still do it bc it means "x" to "me" is just pure disrespect. Like i know someone doesn't like to be called names, but i curse all the time and mean nothing by it... it would however be low of me to just go off how i define it. by this logic, i feel con won me on arguments.
Vote Placed by szexiv 9 months ago
szexiv
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Reasons for voting decision: "Being unpatriotic is not wrong. Disagreeing with your countries values is not wrong. Choosing to not be loyal is not wrong. Sitting down is not wrong." Pro makes a series of logical statements followed by a concise conclusion. These logical statements are rather compelling in so far as proving pro's argument. con concedes, merely stating that they are unwilling to debate person opinions.
Vote Placed by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
ArgangerWirbelfeldTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This was a difficult debate, just because Pro made it more personal than should have. I also think Pro argument, should have gone a different direction. Little less personal. Should have asked why was it disrespectful? Then explaining why it wasn't disrespectful.