The Instigator
antiquesunlight
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dr_lillo
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

It can be reasonable to believe the truth of a proposition without logical support.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/9/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 830 times Debate No: 71419
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

antiquesunlight

Pro

PLEASE DO NOT ACCEPT CHALLENGE UNLESS YOU AGREE TO THESE RULES: Following is my opening argument. My challenger is requested to similarly present his opening argument or arguments. He should not respond directly to my argument in round 1. My challenger ought have no more than two distinct arguments supporting his position, but may have only one if he wishes. Each argument will be clearly presented as a unique argument; which is to say that it should be obvious where each argument begins and ends. In round 2, we will each state our objections to the arguments of our opponent. In round 3, we will each attempt to counter our opponent's objections and reaffirm our initial arguments. In round 4, we will present our final defense of our arguments, our final comments on our opponent's arguments, and will close.

I shall attempt to prove the proposition, "It can be reasonable to believe the truth of a proposition without logical support."

Argument:

a. If we know that our logical thoughts are true, we know it either because something other than logic identifies them as true or because logic identifies them as true.
b. But it can't be that logic identifies logic as true, because that would be circular.
c. Therefore, if we know that our logical thoughts are true, we know it because something other than logic identifies them as true.
d. If something other than logic is what identifies our logic as true, then the source of our knowledge of truth is not logic, but that other thing, call it X.
e. This same X or something very similar to this X, call it X', is what assures us that our perception of, say, our computer screen is not an illusion.
f. If X and X' are what assure us that our ideas and perceptions, respectively, are true, then it's not unreasonable to suppose it's possible that X, X', or something very similar to them could assure us that a proposition is true independent of logical support.
Dr_lillo

Con

Truth depends on facts and reality

Facts is the events that exist or that have occurred non debatable cannot be denied or objected.
Reality is the result of theories that can be argued but it explain most of things most of time.

So if we ask about the truth of proposition we have to seek the facts about it and get close to nearest point to the reality according to our perception .

But we have to know that logicalness is the law of God made for our world bec. He made the facts and we try explaining reality according to his laws.

So logical support is a necessity to seek the truth of anything
Debate Round No. 1
antiquesunlight

Pro

I appreciate Dr_lillo accepting my challenge.

It is not terribly clear to me what my opponent's argument exactly is, but it seems to be something like this:

If we want to know if a proposition is true, we have to try to find out what the facts are and explain them according to logical theories.
God made the laws of logic.
Therefore, logic is necessary for believing the truth of a proposition.

The conclusion of this argument comes out of the blue and does not even begin to follow logically from the two premises. Thus, there is no reason to accept my opponent's conclusion.

Furthermore, premise one, that we must seek facts and explain them according to "reality," which Con defines as "the result of theories that can be argued," apparently assumes the very point he is supposed to be proving: that it is unreasonable to believe the truth of a proposition without logical support.

For these reasons, I believe it remains reasonable to suppose that a proposition could be accepted without logical support and I look forward to Dr_lillo's analysis of my argument.
Dr_lillo

Con

My conclusion of this argument doesn't come out of the blue.
In fact , you misunderstand the difference between facts and reality. Facts aren't subjected to be part of logic world bec. we deduce from the facts the logic way of thinking . That doesn't mean that facts are not logic but they are the givings to prove what 's logic and what's not logic.
Debate Round No. 2
antiquesunlight

Pro

Voters should note that Dr_lillo at this point has apparently not offered any analysis of my argument.

It is still unclear to me precisely what he is attempting to demonstrate. I am aware that fact and logic are different, but I fail to see how this observation is importantly relevant to our discussion.

Con has not addressed my objection that his argument seems to be circular. He claims that truth depends on facts and reality and defines reality as "the result of theories that can be argued." But how would you argue for it besides using facts and logic? So what he is really saying, as far as I can tell, is that truth depends on fact and logic and then concludes that you have to have logic to reasonably believe the truth of a proposition, which is the very thing he is supposed to be proving.

Moreover, what we are discussing is not truth itself but reasonable belief in the truth of some proposition. If our knowledge of the truth of a proposition depends on facts and logic, how do we know that fact and logic are true? Clearly, we don't know they are true because of more facts and logic. It must be that we somehow just know it. So we see that it is this "knowing" that we depend on for truth.

Or in other words:

What I am claiming is that if it isn't hypothetically reasonable to believe in the truth of a proposition without logical support, then it isn't reasonable to believe in logic, because none of us believe in logic because of logical support but rather because we just know that logic is correct. Now you might object that logic is not a proposition and so we do not need logical support for it. But what about the proposition, "It is the case that logic is a reliable source of truth." If you must have logical support to reasonably believe a proposition, then you must have logical reasons for believing that logic is a reliable source of truth. But that is nonsense.
Dr_lillo

Con

The aim of this argument is to seek the truth of a proposition .
you offered wrong analysis in your argument in my point of view as you mentioned below :in round 1
"a. we know that our logical thoughts are true, we know it either because something other than logic identifies them as true or because logic identifies them as true.
b. But it can't be that logic identifies logic as true, because that would be circular. "

also in round 3 "If you must have logical support to reasonably believe a proposition, then you must have logical reasons for believing that logic is a reliable source of truth. But that is nonsense."


Instead, I offered the principles how to seek the truth in round 1 and round 2. get my conclusion according to these principles.
if you don't believe in them so let the voters decide .

you want to prove your proposition with no logical support . simply I find that you apply the subject we debate about .








Debate Round No. 3
antiquesunlight

Pro

Con states that my argument is wrong but does not give any clear indication of what is supposed to be wrong with it. On the other hand, I have provided two clear criticisms of Dr_lillo's argument:

Criticism one: The argument is vague and hard to understand and does not seem to be logically valid.

Criticism two: The argument seems to be circular.

I believe I have adequately justified and defended my claim that it can be reasonable to believe a proposition is true without logical support. The essential claim of my argument is that knowing is logically independent of method.

As far as I can tell, Con has not offered a single direct criticism of my argument nor has he defended my criticisms of his argument.
Dr_lillo

Con

I stated that the method that you used to analyze this subject is not the right way you have to use ( as mentioned above )
I am not obligated to analyze in your way .
let the voters decide which one of us described his method to prove his aim.

also, you stated my argument is vague and not logic so if you won this debate So you prove that i am right ;)
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by antiquesunlight 2 years ago
antiquesunlight
In case it seems like the conclusion of this argument is trivial:

Sometimes, I hear people say things like, "It is irrational to believe in God without reasons." The point of this argument is that those people themselves believe in reasons without reasons.
Posted by antiquesunlight 2 years ago
antiquesunlight
Yes, that's right. I'm still not completely satisfied about the second half, though. I think the challenge of this argument is to generalize from the two cases of logic and perception to something more general in a way that is valid. I rewrote the argument here in a way that I think is stronger and also simpler.

P = Some proposition.
K() = Knowing that.

If K(X), then K() and X.
Therefore,
If K(P), then K() and P.
Therefore,
If K(P), then P.
If P, then it is reasonable to believe that P.
Therefore,
If K(P), then it is reasonable to believe that P.

The essential claim of the argument is that K() is never a property of what is known but that whatever is known is a property of K().

What do you think of this version?
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
So would a,b, and c go like this?
L>(OvI)
~I
/O ?

(If L then O or I, Not I therefore O)
If so, this would be a valid argument, and since this is valid the second half of the argument would also be valid.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
I will take some time to evaluate the rest in a bit, but you have done a great job.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
a., b., and c., are valid. Excellent work ;)
Posted by FragileTag 2 years ago
FragileTag
You may want to define Logic
Posted by antiquesunlight 2 years ago
antiquesunlight
lol... Crazy, right? To be honest, I think I made a slight mistake in reasoning in my conclusion. Trying to decide if I should edit it or ride with it.
Posted by Joss_Whedon 2 years ago
Joss_Whedon
Logic is supporting the inability for logic to support logic! AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
Cool debate, good logic to support your proposition ;)
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