The Instigator
Dave.Carter
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dr.1up
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

It is foolish for Christians to change the glory of God into a man.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 390 times Debate No: 81911
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
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Dave.Carter

Pro

It is foolish for Christians to change the glory of God into a man.

'Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man' (Romans 1:22-23)

'for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee' (Hosea 11:9)

'God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man' Numbers (23:19)

The word 'Messiah' does not mean God it means anointed (mashiach, Strong's Concordance 4890)

The word 'Christ' does not mean God it means anointed (Christos, Strong's Concordance 5547)

'God's son' does not mean God. Adam, which was the son of God (Luke 3:38")was not God.

Jesus was created by God, 'the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature' (Colossians 1:15)

The divinity of Jesus is a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.

Terms and conditions

You have five rounds to counter my Biblical evidence and provide enough of your own Biblical evidence to sufficiently assert that your believe in Jesus being God is not foolish.
Dr.1up

Con

Right, so let’s get down to business then shall we?

I will argue that it is not foolish for Christians to "change the glory of God into a man." (Aka believe that Jesus is God).

I will explain in great detail why we can be certain that Jesus IS God based on what the Bible tells us and I will show just how misinformed the statement, “The divinity of Jesus is a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.” Really is.

Then, in light of this truth, I will address each and every one of my opponent’s pieces of "Biblical evidence” and explain why none of them can be used to claim that Jesus is not God.

Before I begin, I would ask that Pro explain his reasoning behind his implied claim that the verses which he presented are all talking about Jesus. If you look at the context of each one, it quickly becomes clear that none of them are directly or indirectly referring to the divinity of Jesus in any way. I will be sure to thoroughly explain this during our next round.

That will be all for now, Pro may proceed with his/her argument.

Thank you,
Debate Round No. 1
Dave.Carter

Pro

I am most grateful to you for bravely accepting my challenge.

I did not claim that all of the Biblical evidence that I provided are 'all talking about Jesus'. I know that none of these verses are directly or indirectly referring to the divinity of Jesus. None of the Bible directly or indirectly refers to Jesus being divine. That is precisely why the divinity of Jesus is an unbiblical false doctrine.

Allow me to examine the context of each and every one of the verses clearly demonstrating to everyone exactly how and why God is informing us that he is not a man. Further additional supporting Biblical evidence will be provided.

The book of Romans
The author (Paul) prefixes his message by giving thanks to his God whom of which he clearly differentiates from Jesus, 'First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ' (1:8). Paul is warning against the pagan practise of worshiping man as a God (1:23). Paul explicitly warns that only the creator is God, only he must be worshiped and nothing that has been created can be God (1:25). Paul also writes that Jesus was created 'the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature' (Colossians 1:15). Clearly Paul did not believe that Jesus or any other human is God; "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1Timothy2:5).

The book of Hosea
The words spoken by Hosea are from God (Hosea 1:1). God expresses his paternal love for Israel (11:1). Israel did not glorify God (11:2). Israel was unaware that God loved them (11:3) in spite of God providing everything for them (11:4). God's people (Israel) fell away from God because they refused to glorify him (11:7). Even though God is displeased with Israel because of their pagan ways (11:8) God will not act upon his anger and destroy Israel because he is God and will not change his mind. The character of God is distinctly different from a human (11:9).

The book of Numbers
The children of Israel pitched in the plains of Moab (22:1). The people of Moab were afraid of the children of Israel due to their high numbers and previous conquests (22:2-3). Balak was king of the Moabites (22:4). Balak called upon the renowned soothsayer Balaam to curse the children of Israel to prevent them from using all of his people"s resources and conquering them (22:5-6). Initially God told Balaam not to go to Moab and curse the children of Israel because they were blessed (22:12). When Balak sent a second messenger of greater honour (22:15) God told Balaam to go but to only do what God told him to do (22:20). On his way to Moab an angel told Balaam to only say what the angel tells him to say(22:35). When Balaam meets Balak he informs him that he shall only say what God has told him (22:38).

On three separate occasions Balaam told Balak to build seven alters to sacrifice seven oxen and seven rams (23:1/23:14/23:29) After each occasion God spoke to Balaam telling him exactly what to say to Balak (23:5/23:16/24:3).

On the first occasion God speaking through Balaam said;
How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied? (23:7-10)

On the second occasion God speaking through Balaam said;
Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (23:18-24) The unchanging nature of God is incomparable to the changing nature of a man.(11:9).

1 Samuel 15:29, 'And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

The subject of these three verses is God, specifically God's character. The focus is God not changing his mind as humans do; the attributes of God are in stark contrast to those of a human. The foundational characteristics of divinity are unique and exclusive to God alone. One of these characteristics is being omniscient.

The omniscient divine character of God enables him to be free from uncertainty and not prone to changing his mind. Humans are not omniscient thus they can be uncertain and prone to changing their minds. The Bible tells us that Jesus is a man and that as a man he is not omniscient.

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52 52

Omniscient beings do not grow in knowledge. The Bible informs us that Jesus did grow in knowledge and did not know all things. The attributes of God are not compatible with the attributes of a man; with the attributes of Jesus.

For forty days and forty nights Jesus was in the desert whilst Satan the chief of all demons tempted him. Satan"s final temptation to Jesus was to offer him authority over all of the Kingdoms of the world. To believe that Satan could offer the Creator of all a small piece of his own creation is illogical. As a man Jesus rejected Satan"s temptations clearly asserting that we must only worship God;

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Mathew 4:10).

Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

Jesus echoed this Old Testament scripture in (Mark12:30);

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:"

The scribe also knew his scriptures well, he knew there is only one God and there is none other than he. Isaiah 45:5 makes it clear for all to understand; "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

A fundamental divine character of God is to be in receipt of all of the glory. God specifically demands that all of the glory must be given unto him; God made it the first commandment. Jesus obeyed his Gods commandments and gave all of the glory to his God accepting no credit for anything that he did or said himself.

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

'I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.' (John 8:28)

'If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:' (John 8:54)

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49).

Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him." (John 13:16)

"For my Father is greater than I" (John 14:18)

"My Father is greater than all". (John 10:29)

Jesus "fell on his face, and prayed saying, O my Father". (Matthew 26:39)

None of these subservient characteristics of Jesus can also be the characteristics of God. They are the characteristics of God"s humble servant. In Romans 1:23 Paul is warning against the pagan practise of turning God into man. The verse is directed at whoever is guilty of doing so. If you take Jesus to be God then you Dr 1up stand accused of paganism. Now show us what hard Biblical evidence you have for accepting a man as God in the face of the overwhelming Biblical evidence clearly instructing you to do no such thing.
Dr.1up

Con

Dr.1up forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Dave.Carter

Pro


For some reason this debate has experienced some technical difficulties. If you are still interested in debating me then please respond to round two.


Dr.1up

Con

Dr.1up forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Dave.Carter

Pro


My opponent has demonstrated that the divinity of Jesus is unbiblical.


Dr.1up

Con

Dr.1up forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Dave.Carter

Pro

Dave.Carter forfeited this round.
Dr.1up

Con

Dr.1up forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Dave.Carter 1 year ago
Dave.Carter
I hope that Dr 1up's lack of reply is not down to any personal adversity.
Posted by Dr.1up 1 year ago
Dr.1up
On*
Posted by Dr.1up 1 year ago
Dr.1up
Hmmm... I will take you in in this debate :)
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
I can't. I have to wait until my debate with you is completed. And most people on this website don't care.
Posted by Dave.Carter 1 year ago
Dave.Carter
If it were not such a nonsensical concept based on no Biblical evidence then someone would have taken up the challenge by now.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
It's really not a difficult concept. It's just another job that God performs, and it's different enough from his most commonly recognized job, God the Father, that we identify it as a different person. It's not like we're saying two completely different people are somehow the same person. It starts at the top and goes down.
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
Even though I don't believe in God, I do agree that it's illogical how Christians claim that Jesus and God are the same being.

Also @Goordin, where in scripture does it say that "Jesus" made light and other things? Where does it say that?

And agin, where in the bible does it say that God created Jesus specifically as an identity? The bible does say that Jesus and God are very similar, but nowhere did I read that "Jesus is the same as God".
Posted by GoOrDin 1 year ago
GoOrDin
I do not want to argue you about this. SO I will make it simple;

In the first Book, God said, "Let there be light." and Jesus, as a master crafter, the first of all God's actions, his first born son, the Lord God himself, Created it, as God demanded. And God said, it was good.

that is sufficient explanation to fully understand the person of Jesus. However, let me continue ~

God as timeless and infinite as he is, still had a first of all actions; That action was to establish for himself an identity, that identity is the Lord God, Jesus Christ, through whom you can come into a union with God. and through no other person but Christ can you.

If you call a stone Christ, and say all the words preached by a preacher and follow all the actions of every saint and guru, You still through words and actions have no union with God. Only through the person Jesus can you come into union with God. The name only means, Word of God, Light of the World, Wisdom, and "Son of God" (that which God created and that all else came from: as it was after establishing fro himself a personality that God in that person created all things.).

This is truly a wonderful and enlightening Day.
Glory to our Lord, so that he may praise his Father on our behalves for electing him King of all Heaven.
Amen.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Can I be frank? I think it's foolish to limit the power of God to say that God could not have come in the form of Jesus and still been himself.
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