The Instigator
RainbowDash52
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
Mister_Man
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

It is impossible for God to know everything (assuming God exists)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Mister_Man
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/29/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,023 times Debate No: 61061
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (5)

 

RainbowDash52

Pro

Definition:
Knowing if a statement is true means that you are be able to correctly respond with either true or false when asked if that statement is true.
Mister_Man

Con

Sure. I would say BoP relies on both of us, as you're asserting God is not all knowing, while I assert he is.

I will assume we are talking about the Christian God, from the Christian Bible, and if not, please explain which God you are referring to (if one that is named) and give a rebuttal or argument in your round, as there are only three rounds.

And assuming we are talking about the Christian God, the BoP will be taken from the Christian Bible.

I wish I could put quotes around the P in BoP.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge

Perfect in knowledge

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

His understanding has no limit

1 Samuel 2:3
Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

for the LORD is a God of knowledge

1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

and he knows everything


These phrases blatantly say God is all knowing. It is possible, as that's exactly what God is. You will need to prove he is not all knowing, preferably using verses from the Christian Bible.

I'm looking forward to a good debate!
Debate Round No. 1
RainbowDash52

Pro

If I was to ask God "Is it true that you will answer this question with false?" and he said true, he would be wrong since it is false that he answered the question with false. But if he answered the question with false he would also be wrong since it would be true that he answered the question with false. So it is impossible for God to answer this correctly no matter if he answers with true or false.

Therefor it is impossible for God to know if he would answer the question with false since he can"t answer it correctly, thus it is impossible for God to know everything since there is something he doesn't know, even if the Bible says otherwise.

Also it doesn't matter what God we are talking about because no matter what he can't know everything, but if you want to be referring to the christian God then we will.
Mister_Man

Con

You're implying the only possible answer to that question is yes or no. It is not a yes or no question, as much as you would like to think it is. I would consider it more of a "non-question;" it has no logical answer that we are aware of. But if we can't comprehend that question, who's saying a God can't? You're asserting the idea that because we don't know how to properly answer it, nothing does. To say someone who is literally all-knowing does not know the answer to a question because we don't is absurd. Because God hasn't shown that he knows the answer doesn't mean he doesn't. I'm not going to tell you what 1+1 is, does that mean I don't know the answer?

Also, I can answer that question. To do so would have to ignore the positive and negative in reality, and focus on the neutral. To say there is only positive and negative is denying the laws of reality, as what makes things positive and negative is our own mind (I'm feeling a lot like Aerogant here, sorry.) I can simply say "My answer to this question is false." Therefore, it is true that my answer to this question is false. "False" does not mean it is a wrong answer, as your question cannot have a wrong answer. "False" does not mean 100% incorrect, as "true" does not mean 100% correct. You know who decides that? God.

Someone who is all knowing can easily answer that question. Because we don't know the exact answer does not mean it is impossible to come to.

My answer could very well be correct in the eyes of a God; therefore, it is correct, and it is answerable.

Whether you want to say my answer is correct or not is not up to you to decide, it is up to an all-knowing, infinitely knowledgeable being. You are asserting the notion that a God does not know this answer without any reason other than you don't know the answer.
Debate Round No. 2
RainbowDash52

Pro

"I would consider it more of a "non-question;" it has no logical answer that we are aware of"

This is false, it has a logical answer that is possible to be correctly answered by someone who is not asked the question. Another way the question could be phrased would be "if I was to ask God this question, would he answer this question with false?" It is possible for someone who is not God to answer this question correctly but it is not possible for God to answer the question correctly. The question has a correct answer that a person could answer correctly or incorrectly, but it is impossible for God to answer it correctly.

"Because God hasn't shown that he knows the answer doesn't mean he doesn't. I'm not going to tell you what 1+1 is, does that mean I don't know the answer?"

Look at how I defined "knowing if a statement is true" in the first round:
"Knowing if a statement is true means that you are be able to correctly respond with either true or false when asked if that statement is true."

As I have defined "knowing if a statement is true" then not being able to give an answer means you don"t know it.

""False" does not mean it is a wrong answer, as your question cannot have a wrong answer. "False" does not mean 100% incorrect, as "true" does not mean 100% correct. You know who decides that? God."

False means "not according with truth or fact; incorrect."[1]
True means "in accordance with fact or reality."[2]
1 + 1 = 2 is a true statement regardless of whether or not God decides it is true. God can"t make something true by stating it is true.

[1] http://lmgtfy.com...
[2] http://lmgtfy.com...
Mister_Man

Con

If God is all knowing and all powerful, he would be able to change our perspective on what the "truth" is. It all boils down to the reality of it all. We are talking about a God who (in my opinion) hasn't shown he exists, so the chance of this happening is impossible. To say an all knowing being does not know the answer to a question, you have to ask him, and he has to admit he does not know.

Semantics aside, this is what you have to do in order to "prove" that it is impossible for God to know everything. You need to give proof that he does not know the answer to something. Your argument is the same as someone defending the idea that a God even exists; "I don't know the answer, therefore God did it." You're saying "I don't know what God would say, and I don't think it's possible, therefore it is impossible," without anything to back your claim up with other than "I think this is impossible."

I don't even really know any other arguments - to say "God is not all knowing because it is impossible for us (as humans) to understand how he could possibly answer this question" does not prove or mean anything. He is all knowing. No exceptions. He would find a way to answer that question.

Thanks for the debate, it made me think about a lot.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Coming back to this for some reason, but I figured the word "false" has been given it's meaning from humans. If God were to answer the question by saying "false," you and I would interpret that as "no," which to us would be wrong, but only because we gave the word meaning. It's just a noise humans make to communicate with one another, WE gave it meaning, the word "false" isn't universally (as in the universe) and supernaturally known as "no" or "incorrect." So if God says "false," it is true that he answered the question "false."
Posted by Mister_Man 3 years ago
Mister_Man
"It is impossible for God to know everything (assuming God exists)"

Assuming God exists.

Also, to say an entity who is literally all-knowing cannot answer a question because you (or even all humans) find it to be logically impossible does not mean that all-knowing being also finds it logically impossible. To prove something can't answer a question, you would have to not only ask that being directly, but you would also need to know the answer for you to say another answer is incorrect.
Posted by Garsot 3 years ago
Garsot
Also, pro's question to God about answering false is a stupid question and does not stick with the topic of knowing everything. Anyone could answer the question with true or false while knowing that either answer is wrong. Answering a question does not equate to knowing everything. What if God just wanted to be a dick and answered a question wrong on purpose, knowing the right answer anyways?
Posted by Garsot 3 years ago
Garsot
How can you not personally believe in a God, but then argue whether or not a non-existing thing can know everything? I don't believe in God or Gods, so I would say it is impossible for God to know everything because God doesn't exist, making it impossible for it to believe anything.
Posted by RainbowDash52 3 years ago
RainbowDash52
First of all: People reading this don't let this change how you vote. I am not trying to change the outcome with my comments just trying to bring clarity.

It is not just what I consider to be logically impossible, I explained that it is logically impossible for God to give the correct answer to a specific question even though a correct answer exists, and I defined knowing as being able to give a correct answer in the first round. Therefor there is something logically impossible for God to know. I am confused why people didn't get this from my debate.
Posted by Mister_Man 3 years ago
Mister_Man
Who says God doesn't know the answer to what you consider to be logically impossible?
Posted by RainbowDash52 3 years ago
RainbowDash52
Edril, not knowing something that is logically impossible to know means you don't know everything. I don't see why people can't follow this logic.
Posted by Edril 3 years ago
Edril
I'm with Domr. Not being able to perform logical impossibilities doesn't doesn't count as a limit for power/knowledge.
Posted by Domr 3 years ago
Domr
RFD:

Pro did not ask questions that make any logical sense. And if Pro is binding God to answer logically true or false, the questions in turn have to be logical.

Asking logically contradicting questions means illogical answers can be given. We cannot restrict logic on someone, and then impose illogical scenarios/questions.

However, -conduct for Con for bringing up "All-powerful" in the last round
Posted by Mister_Man 3 years ago
Mister_Man
The only thing that talks about the Christian God is the Bible. We are talking about a God (if one exists, check my profile if you must) who is all-knowing, we aren't proving it's existance. I don't personally believe in a God, but for the sake of this argument, I will argue with the idea that a God of that power does exist.

Also, we can all see now this has nothing to do with scriptures, and has to do with semantics.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by mishapqueen 3 years ago
mishapqueen
RainbowDash52Mister_ManTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I gave conduct and convincing arguments pretty much on this reason. Pro muddied the waters and confused me, but Con helped me understand the argument and clarified it, and brought up very good logical reasoning.
Vote Placed by Cooldudebro 3 years ago
Cooldudebro
RainbowDash52Mister_ManTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Great debate! Conduct same. S/G same. sources go to Pro because she was the only one to add a source. Overall, Con made great arguments why god would be all-knowing, even though I loved Pro's tough questions. Overall, it's a 2-3 victory for Con! Congrats!
Vote Placed by MasturDebatur 3 years ago
MasturDebatur
RainbowDash52Mister_ManTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro asked a question that Con was unable to answer. That has nothing to do with God's ability to answer questions. Con stated that God is all knowing, so he knows the answer, so it would be up to Pro to prove that God does not know the answer. A human not knowing the answer is irrelevant, as God's wisdom and knowledge is more than we could comprehend.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
RainbowDash52Mister_ManTied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro proved that God did not know the correct logical answer to the contradictory question he proposed
Vote Placed by Domr 3 years ago
Domr
RainbowDash52Mister_ManTied
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Reasons for voting decision: rfd in comments