The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
Citrakayah
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

It is preferred to live in a zombie apocalypse then an alien invasion apocalypse

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/4/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,679 times Debate No: 32090
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (14)
Votes (4)

 

imabench

Pro

I will argue that it is better off to live in a world being ravaged by a zombie apocalypse then a world being ravaged by an alien invasion.

- It's a given that the aliens and zombies are hostile and want to kill us all
- Zombies are similar to those featured in "The Walking Dead"
- Aliens are similar to those of 'Independence Day', 'Falling Skies', and 'War of the Worlds' where they possess technology and weapons far superior to those of Humans

First round is acceptance only, 6000 character limit

Begin :D
Citrakayah

Con

I accept, and wish the best of luck to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

Alrighty then lets get started.

Reasons why it is preferred to live in a zombie apocalypse then an alien invasion apocalypse:

1) Zombies are idiots whereas Aliens could be geniuses.

The types of zombies in question are the ones shown in the TV series 'The Walking Dead', and the zombies in the TV show are complete idiots. Most zombies cannot operate a door, they cant use any kind of handheld weapon at all, they can easily be distracted by lights and fireworks (If you want me to source this claim I can), and lastly, zombies can easily be tricked and then killed with ease (I can source this to if requested).

Aliens on the other hand are much more intelligent and know their way around weapons and military strategy, rivaling that of humans. Aliens are less prone to obvious traps that would flawlessly on zombies, aliens can communicate with one another while the same isnt true for zombies, and aliens can make plans and strategies for accomplishing their goals while zombies just wander around and try to find a meal.

That being said it is much easier to fight against zombies since they are idiots who can easily be tricked or trapped then it is to fight against Aliens, who are most likely more intelligent then us and know how to actually use weapons.

2) Zombie technology doesnt exist but Alien technology does, and could easily be far superior to ours since they can travel through space in massive numbers

Pretty straightforward, as mentioned earlier zombies dont have any technology or weapons that can match those of humans, and the main strength of zombies comes mostly from their vast numbers. Aliens on the other hand are experienced in space travel and depending on which ones you are thinking of, masters of weapons of war as well, whether it be in the form of tripods, 10 mile wide ships, or just massive air forces.

It is much easier to defeat/resist against zombies as an individual or as a society then it is to defeat/fight against aliens since aliens have far greater firepower then zombies.

3) Zombies are fragile and easy to kill, whereas aliens might not be

In the Walking dead, a zombie can easily be killed with a baseball bat, a lead pipe, a crossbow, or just about any blunt object. Aliens on the other hand could be more of a challenge to kill since its uncertain how frail or strong aliens are. It is much easier for an individual to kill one or more zombies in quick succession then it would be to kill one or more aliens in the same way.

4) Zombies only specialize in physical attacks, Aliens can afflict humanity through other ways

Zombies bite and scratch, thats about it. Aliens though could potentially use biological warfare, electromagnetic pulses, psychic attacks, etc, which could devastate society much more then zombies could. Humans could rely on electricity and advanced weapons (such as missiles or drones) against zombies more then they could against aliens (depending on the extent the invasion already has had).

5) Zombies are finite and cannot reproduce while Aliens can.

The number of zombies in any given area is directly proportional to how many people used to be in that area, meaning that the number of zombies is entirely dependent on how many humans there used to be. Since zombies cannot reproduce their numbers are entirely dependent on the human population. This is not the case for aliens, they can reproduce on their own and are in no way dependent on the number of humans for how many aliens there could potentially be. In other words there could always be more aliens out there while the same isnt true for zombies

6) Society could still somewhat remain the same in a zombie attack but not so much against an alien attack

In the Walking Dead, it is possible for there to be societies surrounded by walls that are patrolled by guards where the people inside could still live somewhat normal lives in peace and out in the open. This is actually feasible for even large cities given a good amount of time to construct such walls. Walls though are not effective against alien attacks since - 1 - Aliens can strike from the skies if the society is large enough for them to spot. And - 2 - Aliens have the technology to cripple any armed walls they encounter whereas Zombies are helpless against such measures, even with overwhelming numbers it is still a crapshoot.

Small defended societies can do ok in both kinds of apocalypses, however large defended societies would not fare as well from an alien attack since they are more prone to being spotted and swiftly annihilated.

7) Zombies are inhibited by natural landmarks and natural borders whereas Aliens are not.

In the movie 28 days later (Just using this as an example) the zombie outbreak is actually quarantined to the British Isles because the zombies have no way of traversing large bodies of water, Aliens though are not inhibited by natural borders. Zombies cant easily cross mountain ranges, or deep rivers, canyons, etc since they are limited to how far they can walk, whereas these inhibitors have no effect on Aliens, who can strike anywhere.

8) Aliens could spread disease while Zombies dont.

When white people first came to America, they spread a sh*tload of small pox and other diseased that decimated large populations. This could potentially happen again with aliens introducing biotic agents into our air and killing millions of us easily since our bodies could not defend against it. Zombies cannot do this though since immune system wise, they are the same as humans, meaning that they cant spread foreign diseases to human populations whereas aliens can.

Its easier to fight against zombies then it is to fight against aliens, which means it is preferable for humans to live in a zombie apocalypse scenario then in an alien invasion apocalypse scenario since the odds and chances of success are far greater in a zombie apocalypse then an alien invasion one.

Thats all for now :D
Citrakayah

Con

First I'd just like to notice that in two of those items that Pro mentioned, humans survive with little to no societal damage. Things aren't looking too great for the aliens already.

1) I will admit that aliens could be geniuses. I would merely point out that in reality they are absolute fvcking idiots. For instance, the Martians in War of the Worlds neglected to see if, say, the most common virus on the planet among the people whom they are eating might have disastrous consequences. Granted, they are not as stupid as the aliens in Signs, who dissolve if exposed to plain old water (which makes up most of the planet), but that's still pretty stupid.

Remember, the aliens in War of the Worlds survive by blood transfusion. They also don't bother to test the blood of a totally alien organisms to see if it might be toxic, or simply useless.

Zombies are less intelligent, of course. But it doesn't matter as much for zombies, because they basically walk around groaning and trying to bite people. Matters a lot more for aliens, who if they miscalculate could end up warping into the Sun.

2) And alien technology could very well be their weak point. Consider--in "Independence Day" a flaw in the operating system (see above) resulted in their total defeat. Meanwhile, their technology could be salvaged, resulting in the overall quality of life possibly improving after the invasion. For instance, aliens might have access to unknown or unavailable forms of energy production, which we could reverse engineer.

3) I would like a source for this. The wiki for The Walking Dead states that they can only die through destroying the head. That is hardly easy kill, especially since most weapons fire bullets.

4) Conceded.

5) Depends. For instance, in Falling Skies the aliens use humans to make skitters, one of the main ground forces of the assault.

7) Sure they can cross such things: They walk. Since they've got no fear response, don't need food, don't die of exposure, et cetera, many of the things that are barriers to us don't affect them. Not to mention that in The Walking Dead the zombies are by definition global: Anyone who dies anywhere becomes a zombie unless you destroy their brain.


Anyhow. On to my reasons:

1. An alien attack can be seen coming. A zombie attack would not be. Aliens have to come from space, where we've got a lot of telescopes and sensors scanning. We'd be able to see them before they reached the Earth, and if they came out of warp in the solar system we'd have days to prepare.

Zombies as portrayed in The Walking Dead would simultaneously attack from every morgue, every graveyard, every New York street corner with no warning. Zip. I'll choose an enemy I know is coming, thank you very much.

Furthermore, the zombie bite is not commonly known about at first, and if you get bitten you are incapacitated and probably will die. If the bacteria responsible evolve to spread through the water supply, we are well and truly screwed.

2. The aliens want to kill us all, but all the aliens don't want to kill us all. A civil war can happen between aliens, and could result in a rebel faction helping us gain technology (for example, Falling Skies).

3. Because the zombie virus is global, the military would be paralyzed—every cemetary, every morgue, would be ground zero of a zombie attack. Thousands would be killed in the initial attack, and since zombies are effectively immune to bullets unless you get a headshot, the military’s standard weapons would be useless.

The fact that any body turns into a zombie, and there is no cure for the virus, also means that you’ve got to keep constant vigilence even if you manage to destroy all the zombies.

You can never defeat the zombies, because you are the zombies! Or will be one, at any rate. Every single body must be destroyed within minutes, and failing to do so means that you’ve got another potential outbreak.

4. Aliens tend to have a glaring weakness that is easily exploitable and results in their relatively quick defeat. For instance, the aliens in “Independence Day” had shields that could be taken down by uploading a virus to their mothership, and the Martians died of the rhinovirus. Other movies and books tend to collaborate this. As stated initially, the aliens in “Signs” would be defeated by a passing raincloud, the aliens in “Godzilla: Final Wars” somehow missed a kilometer tall giant lizard, and the aliens in “Plan Nine from Outer Space” are so incompetent that their idea of destroying the world is reanimating three dudes and hoping they can stumble their way to victory.

All these aliens are defeated quickly, though not necessarily easily—for the most part, they are defeated within maybe a month or so of their initial attack. It’s over quickly, and society gets on with whatever it was doing before. The alien technology can be used to improve quality of life in the future, too—aliens might have access to fusion power.

Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

1) Zombie intelligence vs Alien intelligence

Its a fact that all zombies are idiots, and while I concede that it is more then possible for some aliens to be idiots too, its not accurate to say that they would ALL be idiots. Also worth noting is that Aliens can learn from their mistakes and the mistakes that others before them have made whereas zombies will always be as dumb as a brain dead zombie.

2) Alien tech outweighs the non-existent zombie tech

" aliens might have access to unknown or unavailable forms of energy production, which we could reverse engineer."

We would only be able to reverse engineer it if society has the manpower and resources to study the technology, which might be an issue if humanity is forced to survive in groups of 50 people max. It is possible for the Aliens tech to be used against them, but the chances of that actually happening are slim to none.

That being said, it is still a fact that humans could use their own technology to wage a devastating war against zombies much more effectively then they could against aliens since they would have much better technology to use against us whereas zombies literally have nothing.

3) Easier to kill zombies then Aliens

Its true that you need to destroy a zombies head to destroy it, however in the Walking Dead Season 1 episode 5, Jim is bitten by a walker and over the course of his infection he becomes much more brittle and frail, the ride in the RV literally killing him.
http://en.wikipedia.org...(The_Walking_Dead)

As a human turns into a zombie, his body becomes much weaker, making it easier for them to be killed by a blunt object to the head. In many episodes walkers are killed with a baseball bat to the head, which doesnt destroy the brain for a normal person but does for a walker due to the fragility of their bones and skulls. This makes them easier to kill then a typical alien, who you probably would have trouble getting close to in the first place

4) -

5) Zombies depend on humans for how numerous they can become, Aliens cannot

"Depends. For instance, in Falling Skies the aliens use humans to make skitters, one of the main ground forces of the assault."

Ok granted that dependence on humans depends on which aliens you use as the example.

Strictly speaking on Falling skies though, the aliens increase their numbers due to their advanced technology available to them, which reinforces argument number 2 over how alien tech makes it much harder to defeat them then zombies.

6) ?

7) Natural borders

Zombies cant walk across oceans and seas though, meaning that if say Australia got their zombie problem under control, they wouldnt be affected by how rampant the zombie apocalypse is going on elsewhere since those zombies could never get to Australia. Aliens on the other hand would not be obstructed by such obstacles which was the point of the argument

8) ?

========================================================================

1) Alien attack can be seen coming

How can we claim to see an attack coming when - 1 - We cant even see when massive asteroids are about to strike Earth, and - 2- In every alien movie/tv series ever made they arrive ant attack without warning? it cant be claimed that humans will see an alien invasion coming because in every alien story ever made, they always show up unseen and unexpectedly.

Meanwhile a zombie attack wouldnt necessarily be seen coming. A Zombie apocalypse could start on any day at any given time much like an alien invasion and society would not be able to coordinate or converse with each other on how to defend against these apocalypses. As far as I can see, both of them would show up unexpectedly and without warning.

2) Possibility of an alien Civil War or alien faction assisting humans

Conceded

3) Zombies can never truly be defeated

"the military’s standard weapons would be useless"

I completely dispute that point since in 'The Walking Dead' zombies are killed with military grade weapons all the time

"The fact that any body turns into a zombie, and there is no cure for the virus, also means that you’ve got to keep constant vigilence even if you manage to destroy all the zombies."

Its not necessarily a given though that there isnt a cure or vaccine for the zombie virus at all, its only known that very little progress towards making one. Its more then possible that a cure/vaccine exists but just hasnt been discovered yet

Meanwhile aliens would never truly be defeated unless their own home planet would be wiped out, otherwise they could always remain a threat or come back in much larger numbers to finish the war.

4) Aliens tend to have a glaring weakness

"All these aliens are defeated quickly, though not necessarily easily—for the most part, they are defeated within maybe a month or so of their initial attack"

The same can be said for zombies as well though. TV shows about both apocalypses show these conflicts to be equal in length and devastation on humanity while movies about the same scenarios are always shorter and more glorified. In movies like 'Shaun of the Dead', the zombie apocalypse is actually under control in less then 2 days.

One isnt necessarily better off then the either, they are both the same depending on where you draw your examples from (TV series or movies)
Citrakayah

Con

1. We need to ask ourselves why these aliens are attacking us in the first place. Because they want us dead? For aliens at the technological level of the canon aliens you mentioned, that kind of makes them idiots, since only an idiot goes after people who are theoretically capable of fighting back just to kill them.

Most resouces are present on other planets as well--the only exception is, bluntly, us. There is nothing we exclusively produce, aside from our own flesh, that aliens cannot acquire peacefully or someplace else. The only two reasons for an alien invasion where they want to kill us all are either because they want to eat us, or because they just really hate us.

Oh, and if the zombie virus mutates we could end up with smart zombies.

2. But zombies tend to have greater numbers--they infest the entire planet, is the point. Aliens tend to have a much harder time finding people, especially when you consider that aliens could be hid from underwater, or in densely forested areas that couldn't be penetrated by infrared scans and such.

3. You try getting hit in the head with a baseball bat. Bet'll destroy the brain. I'll wait. And in the episode summary on the wiki it says that Jim was left under a tree, alive, not that he died from a car ride.

5. Except that they are kind of overrelying on their technology, which ends up in some cases turning against them. Not exactly a testament to alien intelligence.

6. What about societies underground, or in the rainforst, or underwater? Aliens would have a hard time finding these societies. Since zombies happen wehenver someone dies, the same can't really be said for zombies. A mistake in zombie disposal can result in the fortress becoming a trap, and being overrun with zombies. This is also a reason to save the rainforest: It is a defense against the aliens.

7. Well, apparently some zombies in The Walking Dead end up floating around. Ships could also crash into an area and introduce zombies.

8. And humans could spread diseases to aliens. Given that an invasio nwould fragment society, it would be harder to infect most huma than it would be to infect most aliens.

========================================================================

1. We do have the ability to see massive asteroids coming though, at least usually. Now imagine a massive alien fleet with mile long ships with heat signatures. We are going to notice!

3. If a species manages to repel you the first time, it might be a good idea to cut your losses and move on rather than engage in another war, after they have presumably scavenged your technology, fortified, gotten over internal differences, etc.

4. Well, you are drawing your examples from a single TV series. I get one TV series, one book, and one movie. Unless we can draw examples from other canons.
Debate Round No. 3
imabench

Pro

1) Zombie Intelligence vs Alien Intelligence

"The only two reasons for an alien invasion where they want to kill us all are either because they want to eat us, or because they just really hate us."

Have you seen how humans act? If I was an alien I would hate humans too, humans are arrogant bastards who routinely hold 'Miss Universe' contests and humans dont even invite other life forms to participate!

Regardless of why they want to kill us, the fact still stands that Aliens are far more intelligent then Zombies, which makes them much harder to fight against/kill

2) Alien Tech vs Zombie Tech

"zombies tend to have greater numbers--they infest the entire planet,"

That has nothing to do with this though. Zombies only have strength in numbers whereas Aliens have all kinds of techs they can use to kill humanity. The simple truth is that Alien tech > Zombie tech since Zombie tech doesnt even exist!

3) Easier to kill zombies then Aliens

'You try getting hit in the head with a baseball bat. Bet'll destroy the brain."

Again, thats not the point. With Zombies you can get as close as you want to them because they fight purely through physical means, but you cant do the same with Aliens because they are more aware of their surroundings and chances are they have some type of armor to help protect themselves. Its simply easier to kill a zombie then an alien.

4) -

5) Zombie numbers depend on how many humans are available, Aliens do not

"Except that they are kind of overrelying on their technology, which ends up in some cases turning against them"

This doesnt even apply to the argument. Aliens do not depend on the number of humans for their numbers whereas zombies do, so its harder to defeat Aliens since they can arrive in massive numbers and have all kinds of reinforcements show up later while zombies depend on humans to grow their numbers.

Also, zombies cant reproduce whereas Aliens can, which only again shows how Aliens can have much larger forces then zombies.

6) Society can stay the same in a zombie attack but not so much an alien attack

"What about societies underground, or in the rainforst, or underwater? Aliens would have a hard time finding these societies"

I bet they would since THEY DONT EXIST.

"This is also a reason to save the rainforest: It is a defense against the aliens."

I already explained how that only works for small societies. In a zombie apocalypse you can shield off a large city or population off from a zombie invasion with enough time and planning, but you cant do the same against Aliens since large cities arent hidden underwater or anything, theyre literally out in the open for all to see.

7) Natural Borders

"Some zombies in The Walking Dead end up floating around. Ships could also crash into an area and introduce zombies."

That still doesnt defeat the fact that zombies cant cross canyons or large mountain ranges without dying in large numbers, nor does it defeat the fact that such obstacles dont obstruct how aliens attack.

8) Aliens can spread disease when zombies cant

"And humans could spread diseases to aliens."

Conceded, but again that doesnt defeat the fact that aliens could still use biological warfare against us while zombies cant.

9) We can see an Alien attack coming

"Now imagine a massive alien fleet with mile long ships with heat signatures. We are going to notice!"

But in EVERY Alien vs Human scenario ever conceived that doesnt happen! Not in Falling Skies, not in War of the Worlds, not in Independence Day, not in any example have humans ever seen an alien invasion coming. We cant simply assume we will know if they come or not when all examples have demonstrated that we wont.

10) Possibility of an Alien Civil War or enemy faction helping us out

Conceded

11) Aliens can always attack again later since we cannot attack their home planet

"If a species manages to repel you the first time, it might be a good idea to cut your losses and move on rather than engage in another war"

Ok now youre just resorting to semantics to dodge the point, which is that a zombie apocalypse can always be brought under control whereas an Alien attack cannot because we cant wipe out all the aliens. There will always be more of them somewhere out there which means that aliens can ever be truly defeated.

12) Aliens Tend to have a glaring Weakness

"Unless we can draw examples from other canons."

You claimed that Aliens are always defeated within months but I pointed out that that claim is only based on movies, while in examples from TV aliens are most certainly not defeated within months and in fact usually have the upper hand in the conflict.

In conclusion:

- Aliens are smarter then Zombies and thus would be harder to kill/defeat
- Alien Tech is superior to Zombie Tech which also makes them harder to kill/defeat
- Aliens are harder to kill since you cant easily get near them
- Aliens only fight hand to hand whereas Aliens can attack in multipe different ways
- Aliens do not depend on humans for their numbers like zombies do
- Large cities can fight against zombies better then aliens
- Canyons and Seas can impede zombies whereas the same is not true for aliens
- Aliens can intentionally or inadvertently introduce diseases to kill us which zombies cannot do
- Aliens cannot truly ever be wiped out while zombies can come pretty close

Therefore since it is much much harder to fight against aliens then zombies, it is preferred to live in a zombie apocalypse then an alien invasion apocalypse.

I thank the con for an awesome debate and I thank the voters for reading :D
Citrakayah

Con

1. Okay, I'll admit that we're bigoted self-centered xenophobic jerks, but that doesn't justify the risk and cost of extermination. Also, we just might be doing the aliens a favor by not inviting them to take part in beauty pageants...

Anyway, bigotry is stupid--it involves classifying an entire group of people in a certain manner based on what had always turned out to be inaccurate information or fallacious reasoning. Since these aliens want to kill us all--not just are willing to--we must conclude they have an active hate for us.

This means that they are either bigots (which means that they are rather stupid) or they enjoy inflicting violence. If they enjoy inflicting violence, there may well be other aliens who track their movements and attempt to intervene.

2. I'll drop this argument. Count it as a concession.

3. In a zombie invasion, though, you've got to kill all of them--that's because of the basic nature of zombies. They are a virus and must be exterminated. Aliens, however, recognize their own mortality, and the expense of trying to exterminate us. As pointet in Falling Skies, if we are sufficiently inconvienent we dramatically raise the chances of the aliens deciding the whole idea was stupid and going home. Remember, we don't pose any real threat to them in the movies Pro mentioned (indeed, that's part of his argument) if they don't attack us first. And since the reason the aliens want to kill us all is hatred--we aren't simply in the way--they can't use arguments relating to something we have and they don't.

5. Granted. But you mentioned your second argument being reinforced.

6. So we move. There are already natural cave systems, many of them quite extensive, and I have been to ones that had rails, power generators, et cetera. You talk of walled cities fending off zombies. Well, similar measures can fend off aliens, or more accurately keep them from ever finding survivors in the first place.

Similarly, there are actually societies in rainforests. Unless Pro is claiming that Amazonian natives don't exist, and neither do Papua New Guineans, Maori, several tribes of Aboriginal Australians, Pygmies, and the Malagasy.

Why do we need large cities? Arguably it is smarter to have a bunch of disconnected places in such an event, whether zombie or alien, because the world would be putting less eggs in a basket, so to speak.

7. Conceded.

8. I would argue, really, that the existence of zombies is a form of biological warfare, as is their bite. Granted, it is not as easily spread (though one wonders what would happen if it got into groundwater).

9. Actually, in War of the Worlds and Independence Day, we did. For the former, explosions were detected on Mars; with our current telescopes we could easily determine that it was artificial in origin, and that it was coming for us. In the latter, we noticed them hovering around and simply didn't figure out (due to the contrived stupidity of a few individuals) that they were about to attack.

10. -

11. Can you really call something that never ends being brought under control? What you are proposing, as I stated, requires constant vigilence; there is very possibly no cure to the zombie virus. Aliens can be defeated so long as you are sufficently difficult to exterminate. The same does not apply to zombies.

12. I suppose that's fair.




I thank my opponent for the debate.
Debate Round No. 4
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
This debate reminded me of this fun video: http://zombieindustries.com...
Posted by DoctorDeku 3 years ago
DoctorDeku
Does no one else notice that Pro used 'then' instead of 'than'?
Posted by Citrakayah 3 years ago
Citrakayah
I might actually lose this one...

First time for everything, I suppose.
Posted by TheAntidoter 3 years ago
TheAntidoter
If The Zombies had a virus like the one from plague inc...

Oh god we would be screwed.
Posted by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
I didnt even THINK of video game examples for this.... Damn I wish I had :P
Posted by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
ima you should have said the aliens were the covenant fleet in the first halo
Posted by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
the fuk did I say lannan?
Posted by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
good arguments lannan
Posted by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
LOL Maikuru

And Ryuu, I did a little.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
imabenchCitrakayahTied
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Reasons for voting decision: CVB against bigbee99.
Vote Placed by bigbee99 3 years ago
bigbee99
imabenchCitrakayahTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Zombie are retarded
Vote Placed by TN05 3 years ago
TN05
imabenchCitrakayahTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Interesting debate. I expected Pro to easily win, but Con had some very solid arguments. Pro managed to defeat many by humor, which moved that to him. I gave sources to Con because the linked source presented by Pro did not go to anything Walking Dead-related. Conduct goes to Con for being unflappable in he face of humor
Vote Placed by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
imabenchCitrakayahTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had less concessions AND was more convincing.