The Instigator
CountCheechula
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
DATXDUDE
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

It is probable to assume that the U.S. and China will go to war within the next 50 years

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after 2 votes the winner is...
DATXDUDE
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 10/31/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 625 times Debate No: 64308
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

CountCheechula

Pro

In order for me to win this debate I must prove that it is probable to assume that the U.S. and China will go to war within the next 50 years.
In order for you to win this debate you must prove that it is not probable to assume that the U.S. and China will go to war within the next 50 years.

1st round is NOT acceptance.

Thanks and I hope for a fascinating discussion.
DATXDUDE

Con

I accept your challenge.

However, you provided no definitions. What is war? Are you talking about a proxy war, or a full on nuclear war? I will assume you are talking about a land invasion.

China and America are major trading partners. We owe them, sure, but we have majorly contributed to their economy. Do me a favor. Look on the back of a product you have purchased. There is a very large probability that it will say "Made In China" on the back.

Also, we saved China during World War 2. I think they would be grateful enough not to go to war with us, at least for the next 50 years.

I am prepared for the argument that "North Korea has a bad relationship with America, North Korea and China are allies, so China will likely go to war with America."

To this I respond: Have you ever had a friend that was friends with somebody you hate? I know I have.

Take your time in proving my arguments wrong, thanks for reading, and good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
CountCheechula

Pro

Thanks and yes I did not provide any definitions about war. I am not talking terms of nuclear war because the people in charge do understand the mass trauma, widespread destruction and absolute environmental collapse of all species if a nuclear war were to go into affect between any two major nuclear powers. A proxy war could not exist between the two most powerful nations because it just wouldn't. I am talking about a land invasion, air invasion and sea guided war.

Correct China and US are major trading partners but china could still stay afloat just trading with it's allies and western Europe.
US needs China way more in this regard for extremely low prices on like you said almost everything.

Your point on WW2 help, we did bomb China's mortal enemy but ever since have revived Japan and made Japan a very strong rich nation. Obama and other top senior US officials take Japans side on many issues like those of the disputed Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. A very touchy and deep subject for Chinese people.

You think I would use the North Korea argument but to be honest it is irrelevant.
The real issue lies with the China's other friends particularly the BRICS nations. Brazil, Russia, India, and South Africa. Next year these nations will launch the second largest bank and trading association. There 'wall street' will be located in Shanghai and these five nations along with many of their allies including Germany will drop the US dollar as their Oil currency and switch to the Chinese Yuan. Also many economists believe that after this launch many middleastern countries will drop the petrodollar and choose the petroyuan.
This will cause a depression worse than the Great Depression not only for America but for the entire globe. Also in the next 5 to 7 years China will surpass the US in GDP and in 25 years the average Chinese citizen will be richer than the average American citizen.

When huge world wide depression occurs normally follows worldwide war.

Sources:
Chinese foreign exchange students at my high school
www.slate.com/.../the_senkaku_or_diaoyu_islands_where_world_war...
WW2 History
DATXDUDE

Con

Thank you for the definitions, but saying a proxy war "could not exist between the two most powerful nations because it just wouldn't", is false. The USSR and the USA(the two most powerful nations in the world at the time) had a proxy war back in the 1960's and 1970's called the War of Vietnam, as I am sure you know.

You are correct that China could stay afloat without the help of the USA. However, most of, if not all of, the biggest countries in western Europe are allies with the USA, and likely wouldn't trade with China if they were at war with the USA.

China may be irked that the USA takes the side of Japan on some issues. However, they are very happy that we recognize Tibet as a part of China.

You say that many economists believe that a bank that the BRICS nations will launch will cause a chain of events that will lead to a chain of events leading to the inevitable war between the USA and China. I respond to this statement by reminding the audience that the fact that some economists believe an event that will happen that you say will make China and America will go to war does not make it likely that China and America will go to war. As a matter of fact, many experts on this subject believe that China and America will not go to war.
Debate Round No. 2
CountCheechula

Pro

Russia and the USA never went to war against each other, I am saying if China and the US did go to war how could you call it a proxy war?

Western Europe probably will involved in this war and then of course stop trade for a period of time. But China still has all of Asia even Japan, almost all of south and central America as well with Russia and Asia Minor. Also do not forget Africa.

China has truly grown apart from America seeing them not even as equals but as a old stupid sub-country that is continuing the mistakes of all the old great empires that eventually fell. They house most of our debt and soon America will be a bother or even a slow, corrupt, in debt and angry country.

I am not saying China will provoke or even start this war, it will all be played by the US. President Obama has put multiple troop bases and several new navy bases all surrounding China. When the new and second largest economic engine hits the market and the US dollar is no long backed by OPEC and basically every other country and when a can of Arizona is 6$ instead of 1$ America will be ticked. Its people as well as its leaders will demand for war because America has no idea what it feels like to be a 2nd world country and to get the US out will be the answer of war.

The leaders of both countries have grown apart and with the creation and goals of BRICS these countries want to destroy the US and send them to destruction and the reasons are very reasonable. The US has been the over protective mother of the world and the countries that have grown into rebellious teens are plotting against Her. With the recent CIA scandal Germany agreed to drop the dollar and take in the Yuan. So yes not even Western Europe is on the US side anymore. The only true ally the US has is Israel.

The brics nations are going to instate mandatory credit cards in order for any citizen to buy or sell any product of any scale, sounds kind of like Revelation if you ask me. Also these nations call there plan the Order of the New world.
DATXDUDE

Con

The USSR was at war with America, but they used other countries (South Vietnam, North Vietnam) to attack each other. Thats what a proxy war is.

You said that China would stay afloat by trading with Western Europe. I am saying that if China were to go to war with us, Western Europe wouldn't trade with them. Even though, as you pointed out, China could trade with other countries, there are certain things that the USA and Western Europe have that other countries don't.

Japan would side with us because we are allies. Yes, Russia and SOME countries in Asia are allies with China. However, Central America and South America have various stances about this issue. It is false to assume that almost all countries in the area are allied with China.

Germany never agreed to take the Yuan. They could not drop the dollar, because that is not their currency.

You keep going back to BRICS and how they want to destroy the USA, but you have no proof of this.

You also have no proof that the BRICS will institute mandatory credit cards, either.
Debate Round No. 3
CountCheechula

Pro

The USA and the USSR never went to war with each other. America created this bull theory about the domino effect and saw a money making opportunity with Vietnam.

China would not only stay afloat but replace America in this sense. West Europe knows that products are much cheaper coming out of China and since these countries are capitalist they will fall to greed.

Definitely Brazil and Argentina along with Columbia in South America will. The others don't matter but would probably follow suit. About the Central maybe Mexico will side with US but the rest honestly don't matter and don't care.

Germany is highly thinking about it and yes Germany can not sell Oil unless it is in Dollars.

The BRICS want to stand up to the 1st world and try to become the new bosses of the planet maybe not destroy the USA but Americans will take it as such. About the mandatory cards I cannot source it so my reference is useless but I did read it off of Russian site off of google.ru after I translated it. I like to read foreign news.
DATXDUDE

Con

Trust me, I know a lot about the Vietnam war. Seeing as this is the case, I can explain why it was really a war between the USSR and the USA, and North and South Vietnam were really just their pawns. The war started in the late 60's because of the "domino theory", that the USA created, and yes, we were wrong in doing this. North Vietnam was communist, and South Vietnam had more of a capitalist government. It was really a power struggle between the USA and the USSR, because the USA wanted the capitalist government to survive, and the USSR wanted the communist government to survive. So, when they went to war, the USA gave South Vietnam support, and the USSR gave North Vietnam support. They each wanted their pawn to survive, plain and simple.

But I digress, seeing as this is a debate over whether China will go to war with America in the next 50 years, not about the Vietnam war.

You seem to have a general dislike for capitalism. Do you want China and America to go to war, so China will win and a better governmental system (in your opinion) will spread?

You didn't respond to my point that China can't sell every product in the world, seeing as some things only come form certain places in the world. And just because a country isn't capitalist, doesn't make it immune to greed. Take North Korea, a nation where Kim Jong Un hogs all the resources and leaves his people poor and starving.

Why do the others not matter? Why would they probably follow suit? Why did you bother to even say the second statement if you believe the first?

Changing to the Yuan would not change the fact that Germany would sell oil in dollars. You didn't back up this statement either.

You didn't give evidence that the BRICS want to be the new bosses of the planet. Please prove that they do.

While I am on the topic of evidence, I will be glad to cite any of my arguments if you want me to.
Debate Round No. 4
CountCheechula

Pro

Final round, here we go.

1. "Trust me, I know a lot about the Vietnam war. Seeing as this is the case, I can explain why it was really a war between the USSR and the USA, and North and South Vietnam were really just their pawns. The war started in the late 60's because of the "domino theory", that the USA created, and yes, we were wrong in doing this. North Vietnam was communist, and South Vietnam had more of a capitalist government. It was really a power struggle between the USA and the USSR, because the USA wanted the capitalist government to survive, and the USSR wanted the communist government to survive. So, when they went to war, the USA gave South Vietnam support, and the USSR gave North Vietnam support. They each wanted their pawn to survive, plain and simple."

* Trust me I know a little bit about it to. The Vietnam war was created over a fake Gulf of Tonkin incident and yes the Soviets supplied the Vietcong and the US staged an assassinated on Ngo Dinh Diem. A proxy war yes but the USA did not invade the USSR nor bomb them and the USSR did not either. We also actually invaded Vietnam and lost, if we just funded them it would be different but American men died and worse yet were forced to go. Russia didn't literally send men to die in the jungle of Vietnam and we don't call it the Russian war but the VIETNAM WAR.

2. "You seem to have a general dislike for capitalism. Do you want China and America to go to war, so China will win and a better governmental system (in your opinion) will spread?"

* No the formation of the BRICS is the closest thing to NWO then any. For cards will start to be made by 2017 or 2018 in China to be sent to every citizen of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. These cards will be mandatory to sell or buy anything within their borders. Many countries like Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Venezuela and Columbia want to join badly. Same does Iran, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Omen and Egypt want to use this new currency to sell oil in. After the CIA scandal even Germany is considering this move.Turkey is silent along with Mexico.

3. "You didn't respond to my point that China can't sell every product in the world, seeing as some things only come form certain places in the world. And just because a country isn't capitalist, doesn't make it immune to greed. Take North Korea, a nation where Kim Jong Un hogs all the resources and leaves his people poor and starving."

* With America in ruins and Western Europe very weak Russia and China become the two power houses. They either combine or fight and the winner most likely China would be in the same spot the USA has been since the end of WW2. With be the best and strongest it doesn't matter that some things only come from certain places. For Mr. Un I agree.

4. "Changing to the Yuan would not change the fact that Germany would sell oil in dollars. You didn't back up this statement either."

* I explained a little earlier but yes they want to drop the petrodollar and keep the Euro. If they joined brics they could only probably trade to other members and take the mandatory cards.

5. No need for any cites, this debate was labeled logically not factual. I said it would be probably to assume not 'they will'.
I have proved with logic and history that Americans, their government and their allies will be mad if the economy is out beaten or completely trashed because of this new plan in placed by mainly Russia and China. Horrible economic times, assaults to a ones own people along with propaganda, money and pure humiliation makes it probably to assume that makes a country mad and war hungry. In this case America (what do ya know?) targeting China.

Both countries are horrible and I just hope nuclear warfare is not used because it will cause terminal catastrophes to this planet and every living thing on it. The BRICS scare me and stenches of WW3, I know how my country will respond to such actions and it is not good.
Communism is the greatest on paper but only if Jesus was leader it could actually work in real life. Democratic-Socialism in my opinion is the greatest form of Governmental-Economic system ever created. I would like to thank my opponent and the floor.
DATXDUDE

Con

Final round.

"Trust me I know a little bit about it to. The Vietnam war was created over a fake Gulf of Tonkin incident and yes the Soviets supplied the Vietcong and the US staged an assassinated on Ngo Dinh Diem. A proxy war yes but the USA did not invade the USSR nor bomb them and the USSR did not either. We also actually invaded Vietnam and lost, if we just funded them it would be different but American men died and worse yet were forced to go. Russia didn't literally send men to die in the jungle of Vietnam and we don't call it the Russian war but the VIETNAM WAR."

So you are saying that Vietnam was a proxy war between the USSR and the USA (third sentence), even though the USSR did not invade Vietnam, which doesn't matter, because the war of Vietnam was a proxy war, not an actual war specifically between the USSR and the USA. It was named the war of Vietnam, because it was the US and North Vietnam who fought, but it was more significantly a proxy war between the USSR and the USA.

Regarding your point on mandatory cards, I think it would take longer than 3 years to create mandatory credit cards, and set up a system where the "mandatory" part was enforced in five nations.

Regarding your point on trade, I was saying that there are some things only a functioning America could produce(For example certain technologies, based on it's region. Yes, theoretically, China could eventually rebuild America, if they went to war, but would take time, and reverse worldwide technological progress, and I think China realizes this.

Regarding your point on Germany, you didn't explain why the nation would want to take the cards, or even prove that they did want to take the cards, nor did you prove that they wanted to drop the petrodollar.

I would like to thank the floor, and my opponent for this fascinating discussion.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by wayne.workman2012 2 years ago
wayne.workman2012
I really wish this argument included the economic factors of WWII as an example for WWIII.

America was in the great depression. Why? Because Germany at the time entered into the industrial age and were able to produce goods at lower prices than America, so world trade slowly drifted to them.

When we entered the war against Germany, we bombed factories, railroads, and highways. We destroyed their ability to be industrious. After this, america had it's 'golden era' where there were 2 cars in each driveway, and a baby boom.

Same will happen with China. They can produce goods cheaper than we can, jobs are going there, economy is going there. America will find an emotional reason to rally the people against China, an event will occur, and we will go to war. We will bomb highways, industrial complexes, railroads, mines, and other industrial areas.

Only thing is, it'll never happen because we will be too late. They'll come to us, watch.
Posted by wayne.workman2012 2 years ago
wayne.workman2012
"However, you provided no definitions. What is war? Are you talking about a proxy war, or a full on nuclear war? I will assume you are talking about a land invasion."

What is war? What a joke of a question. Real war has no rules.

The guidelines of war that the U.N. have are enforced by the threat of retaliation by the largest U.N. members.

If said members were to break the rules (as they would to keep power), nobody is there to enforce the rules in any other method than war itself.

What is war? ha.
Posted by CountCheechula 2 years ago
CountCheechula
Correct I must prove that it is probable to assume.
Posted by whitesworstnightmare 2 years ago
whitesworstnightmare
white people and America obsession with wars and blood! One day God will Come And free people from white mans hate and destruction!
Posted by moneystacker 2 years ago
moneystacker
you can assume anything.. you mean prove they could go to war?
Posted by UndeniableReality 2 years ago
UndeniableReality
Probable to assume?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
CountCheechulaDATXDUDE
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: pro basically only rebuts con and tries to prove US wanting to go to war with China, but con proved especially with his case of the Cold War that the US can co-exist with a nation that it's hostile with and hates, without going to war.
Vote Placed by Jingle_Bombs 2 years ago
Jingle_Bombs
CountCheechulaDATXDUDE
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Somewhat sloppy debate that occasionally ventured off-topic. Was looking for more viable reasons for why US strategic interests would eventually clash with Chinese national interests, yet the best Pro could offer was say the American public doesn't like to be #2 in the world. Pro ultimately hurts this assumption by simultaneously arguing that two Cold War superpowers once co-existed without declaring war.