The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Duncan
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

It is said on Debate.org that Shakespeare is as good as Dean

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Duncan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/2/2013 Category: Arts
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 774 times Debate No: 36300
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

shakuntala

Pro

This poetry by Dean
http://www.scribd.com...

It is said on this site that Shakespeare is as good as Dean
http://www.debate.org...

quote
"so Dean is just as good as Shakespeare then based on your view

You are correct. All art is equal in artistic value. Just because Shakespeare makes me soar and C Dean makes me puke in my mouth a little does not make one objectively better than the other, that's just my reaction."

I agree with is view
Duncan

Con

Frankly, I've had enough of your silt, Vogon. I stand against your dumbass poetry and insults to the English Language.
Shakespeare is better than Dean. Dean is nowhere as talented as Shakespeare was. To say such a thing is ridiculous.
You'd better have some pretty convincing evidence.
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Shakespeare is better than Dean. Dean"

so I assume you are saying Art is objective and can be assessed by objective standards that are not subjective
so tell us what these objective standards that are not subjective are
Duncan

Con

There are measurements of skill in poetry in the form of language, tone and rhythm. In playwrighting, structures of stories and use of themes is measure of worth. Shakespeare is well heeded as a master of these aspects, so much so that his work has survived for hundreds of years. I have already explained in past debates how Dean and all the other erotic poets don't appeal to any of these aspects. The only emotion they feature is lust. The only think they make you feel is your own genitals.

Now provide some proof yourself, PROPOSITION.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"There are measurements of skill in poetry in the form of language, tone and rhythm."

I will show you how much better is Dean on these three criteria

take Shakespeare
SONNET 18

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this and this gives life to thee.

first
its rhythm and lyrical nature are poor when compared to Dean -when you recite the poem you come across like a dead fish
second
it is meant to be about love yet its tone is emotionless no passion only clever words compared to Dean

thirdly
its language is prosaic and commonplace compared to Dean

Here is Deans
from Gitavesya
http://www.scribd.com...

To my eyes soft languid sighs come hither
In the moonlight tangled web of perfumes and jewels radiant glitter
I will love thee on cushions of silken cloth
I will love thee midst brocade and wines ruby froth
Loiter not while moonlight twinkles o"er terraces and bazaars
And mating koels woo to the twinkling of stars
Drink deep of my eyes of ravishment
Fill thy soul from my poppy lips of enchantment
Delight in my angaraga scented limbs
Breath the scent of sandal from my gem tangled serpent- like hair
Oh nayaka as the elephant to its mate fly to me
As the vine to its tree clasp me
As lips l ong for lips kiss me
Oh nayaka the flames of loves fires sear me

this poem is more lyrical than Shakespeare -when you recite the poem you sing with emotion unlike SONNET 18
this poem has a more passionate/emotional tone-this is a true love song-unlike SONNET 18
the language alive and full of imagery-unlike SONNET 18

when con says
"The only emotion they feature is lust. The only think they make you feel is your own genitals.'

he is only talking of his SUBJECTIVE tastes and likes and dislikes
con does not seem to get it
just because you dont like a poems content does not necessarily make that poem bad
just as if you like a poems content does not necessarily makes the poem good

con seems to think if a poem has deep ethical meanings then it is a good poem
but
if it has dirty words or tones of lust it must be bad

con does not seem to understand that
Duncan

Con

Well, it seems my school subjects just keep coming up. English, Art, oh, and guess what? History is also one of my best subjects. Understand that when Shakespeare first wrote these sonnets, it was scandalous. He was a pioneer of his time. Dean is not. I have seen that on multiple occasions that you use reading it aloud as an argument. Well interpretation is a big thing. If you'd ever been to a poetry recital, you'd know that you can make an airport announcement compelling if you read it right. You reading one in monotone does not justify Dean, but I wouldn't be surprised that you'd think that, considering you thought Heaney was a bad poet because you thought he'd be bad in bed.

So, Shakespeare, who wrote sonnets and plays by the hundreds., is and easy target for someone like you. He's done so much that you can find one of the lesser ones and ignore his masterpieces, to try and compare him to a poet you listen to in an absinthe lounge while contemplating sex with a 74 year old Irish poet. As I've said before, emotion is not the sole determinate value of poetry, and if you didn't know that, I recommend repeating school and opening a book. All your poems are from the same erotic site. Scribdr was it? You constantly appeal with emotion, but the only one you offer is lust. Citizen Kane does not get compared to two girls one cup, even if it has more passion than the former. I recommend you buy a decent textbook on poetry available from any bookstore.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

I have 2 points I want con tto address

1)
con says
"He was a pioneer of his time. Dean is not."

being a pioneers was not one of your listed criteria for being a good poet

you said

""There are measurements of skill in poetry in the form of language, tone and rhythm.""

so you now cant change the gaol posts and add another criteria

based on your criteria
I showed you why Dean is better than Shakespeare by comparing his SONNET 18 with a Dean poem
you very obviously ignore that comparison so it can be assumed you cant refute my comparison

so I will repeat
Shakespeare sonnet 18
first
its rhythm and lyrical nature are poor when compared to Dean -when you recite the poem you come across like a dead fish
second
it is meant to be about love yet its tone is emotionless no passion only clever words compared to Dean

thirdly
its language is prosaic and commonplace compared to Dean

Deans is poem is more lyrical than Shakespeare -when you recite the poem you sing with emotion unlike SONNET 18
this poem has a more passionate/emotional tone-this is a true love song-unlike SONNET 18
the language alive and full of imagery-unlike SONNET 18

point 2)

con does not seem to get it
con seems to think if a poem has deep ethical meanings then it is a good poem
but
if it has dirty words or tones of lust it must be bad

just because you dont like a poems content does not necessarily make that poem bad
just as if you like a poems content does not necessarily makes the poem good

con does not seem to understand that
Duncan

Con

I'd like to call attention to something I've noticed;

"it is said
"Remember that scene in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" when the Vogon Commander strapped the protagonists to a table and forced them to listen to his terrible poetry or else be thrown out the airlock into space?

You, Shakuntala, are that Vogon"

but you have said Shakespeare is as good as Dean

thus that entails

Shakespeare is a Vogon to "

Including the grammatical errors, that is you in the comments. But Orogami was callin you a Vogon, not Dean. This means that you are in fact, Dean, by your own confession. You have been using this site to try and promote your own poetry. And failing at it too, since you have a win ratio of 6% now.

On the point of pioneers. Shakepeare lived in a time when women could not be actors, were someone showing their shoulders in a portrait was considered scandalous and shameful. His poems were the most emotional of the era. You can't say Galileo was a poor astronomer because he didn't spot as many new galaxies as scientists today have done.

Now, on your comparison. You constantly such odd cliches that I've never heard before. His poetry comes across lie a dead fish? Live fish aren't any better at poetry. But I would expect this form the guy who complained that Seamus Heaney, a 74 year old Nobel prizewinner would be "boring in bed". But regardless. Your only reasons behind the two poems are emotion and lyrical value. I'll start with lyrical value. Have you ever read Macbeth? or Julius Caesar? or Romeo and Juliet? or the Tempest? and so on? You have picked one of his two hundred works of poetry to use as a basis for all his poetry. You are comparing the worst of Shakespeare to the best of your own poetry, Dean. And all this proves is that sometimes, on a bad day, after the theatre burns down and the wife is giving out and the children are complaining, on a very bad day, Shakespeare is somewhat comparable to you at you finest with the absinthe loungers singing praises of how you gave them boners. And on a final note about language and lyrical balue. I wouldn't exactly trust the word of someone who doesn't know how to use full stops or capitals through an entire debate abut the "lyrical beauty" of their own poetry. Emotion my a$$, Dean. A good work of art can have lust in it and some foul language. But your poetry is far from a work of art. You appeal to emotion and only ever use one emotion in all of your poems. And I won't sign off on this round like I do with other debaters because I've found out how shallow a poet you are.

Debate Round No. 4
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"You are comparing the worst of Shakespeare to the best of your own poetry, Dean"
gee are you saying Shakespeare's sonnet is his worst work -now thats brave of you

as to being a pioneer
Dean is one also
he is a pioneer in giving groin centred poetry in an age which is anal renttive and sees emotion lust passion as dirty things
that makes him more of a pioneer than even Shakespeare
Duncan

Con

1; I wonder why you keep usin sonnet in the singular. You do realise that he wrote over 150 sonnets, right? he also wrote over 30 plays.

2; The term anal retentive (also anally retentive), commonly abbreviated to anal,[1] is used to describe a person who pays such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, potentially to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis. Now, society today does not pay great attention to detail, many of the world's problems in terms of constitutional laws are because of that. There is no obession with detail I may use detail, but that's because I'm an A level English student, and I can properly analyse a poem. Also, it's funny that you would accuse others of bein subjects of Freudian psychoanalysis when you revealed that you were Dean in a Freudian slip. The world sees lust based poems as dirty, because dirty is a term used to describe vulgar or sex oriented things, and you are using an erotic poem, ao the term dirty fits the bill nicely here. And you are not a pioneer Dean. You didn't invent erotic poetry, and you haven't brought in any changes to the way it's view today, unless you count using debate websites to advertise it so people begin to resent it so you can claim you are being oppressed in a debate on the Aesthetics of Incorrectness. You were called out a long time ao Dean. Your self obsessed debates have to stop.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Duncan 3 years ago
Duncan
t is said
"Remember that scene in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" when the Vogon Commander strapped the protagonists to a table and forced them to listen to his terrible poetry or else be thrown out the airlock into space?

You, Shakuntala, are that Vogon"

but you have said Shakespeare is as good as Dean

thus that entails

Shakespeare is a Vogon to

Uh... he was talking about you, not Dean. If Dean is a vogon, it would be because you are Dean. Freudian slip there, Shakuntala?
Posted by Poetaster 3 years ago
Poetaster
Damn it Oromagi, this proposition originated with you! Why did you bite some imaginary, unnecessary bullet by conceding some equality between this "CL Dean" and Shakespeare?

Simply because you hold artistic opinions to be "subjective" doesn't mean that you're committed to surrendering your own, and admitting some universal "equality" between artists!
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
it is said
"Remember that scene in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" when the Vogon Commander strapped the protagonists to a table and forced them to listen to his terrible poetry or else be thrown out the airlock into space?

You, Shakuntala, are that Vogon"

but you have said Shakespeare is as good as Dean

thus that entails

Shakespeare is a Vogon to
Posted by Oromagi 3 years ago
Oromagi
Remember that scene in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" when the Vogon Commander strapped the protagonists to a table and forced them to listen to his terrible poetry or else be thrown out the airlock into space?

You, Shakuntala, are that Vogon
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
shakuntalaDuncanTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: pro gave no argument and is simply advertising his own crappy poetry