The Instigator
SirJDKnightCroix
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
seldumonde
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

It is the right of individuals to organize into a Labor Union.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,049 times Debate No: 1202
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (7)

 

SirJDKnightCroix

Pro

It sounds like you love freedom, yet you oppose Unions?

The right to form a labor union is a basic right of any groups. You should be able to organize. There shouldn't be any special privileges legislated to the said groups, but the right to form a union is absolutely critical, especially in a free market.

You should never deny any working group the right to organize and negotiate for the best set of working conditions and pay. NEVER.

The fact that government gets involved with labor unions, shows the breadth of government interference in the free market and is in fact counterproductive to the fundamentally free nature of the markets and of the economy.
seldumonde

Con

I am not against unions per se. In certain industries unions are useful, but unions with excessive power are a problem.

I have a particular issue with teacher's unions that make it near impossible to fire a teacher after tenure, which in itself is an insane system. What other job do you have guaranteed security after three years no matter how bad you are? Teacher's unions hurt the education system by creating a system where there is little or no incentive to really be excellent. Instead a teacher will just do the basics because they aren't going to be fired after tenure. And many teachers are let go right before tenure just because it is so hard to fire them after it. The tenure system rewards mediocrity and ensures that departments and schools will continue to be filled with poor teachers. This is terrible for kids who are taught by them.

The real crux of my problem with unions is when they get arrogant and demand excessive things. Incredible union demands in the auto industry now cripple domestic companies who are forced to pay massive health care and pension costs. All of these things hurt industry. I also hate strikes. They serve little purpose other than to irritate and disrupt the lives of thousands. If a teacher's union calls a strike then the people hurt are the kids; if it's a transport worker's union like the recent ones in New York and Philly the entire area suffers. No group should have the power to do this kind of damage to an entire economy.

Finally, I hate the way unions act politically. They endorse Democrats almost always and use member funds to further their agenda, which almost always means funding Democrats regardless of member's wishes. They support laws like the destruction of the secret ballot so they can bully people into unionizing. They engage in smear campaigns against non-union companies like Walmart and use their political influence to try and hurt Walmart by the force of government. In general unions are constantly diminishing in this country and they're desperate to gain new members.

In conclusion my problems with unions can be boiled down to four things then - excessive demands that cripple business, strikes that hurt entire economies, extremely biased political action using member funds, and the attempt to abuse the power of government to force people to unionize and hurt companies that don't wish to organize. Unions must be put in check and the unholy Democrat-union alliance must be curtailed.
Debate Round No. 1
SirJDKnightCroix

Pro

See, I don't disagree with you on those statements whatsoever. LOL
This is a problem because it's a debate, but I guess what I mean is, let me further elaborate my angle.

I agree with your statement on unions becoming too powerful. That leads to syndicalism and furthermore when the government intervenes, communism.

Why do unions however have so much power? It has to do with what you said partly, alliances for with parties (usually the Democratic Party) that mutually benefit each other. Personally, this is wrong to me, because when the politicians are elected, they enact pro-Union legislation. This is where I am opposed, government intervention of unions, which hinders the free market.

Additionally, it's why I oppose all this government-run education. The gov't has a virtual monopoly on education, as the overwhelming majority of students attend public schools as opposed to home-schooling and private institutions.

If the gov't did not get involved in aspects that it ISN'T SUPPOSED to be involved in, unions would function as they are supposed to. They would negotiate reasonably with the contracters of schools, and establish a justifiable means that has mutual benefit for both sides, as in business.

Capitalism is the only way.
seldumonde

Con

Hmm... we don't have much of a debate then do we! I think the issue is that this site forces you to say "oppose" or "support" on issues that are very complicated. I said "oppose" unions because of all the negative things I mentioned that color my opinion of unions.

I guess this debate is over then. If you have another thing to debate feel free, but it seems to me we are both big fans of capitalism!
Debate Round No. 2
SirJDKnightCroix

Pro

Arguing and fighting and war and revolution, eh, it's just not good business.

Final Point just for the sake of this debate:

Government should stay out of the markey!

- J.D.
seldumonde

Con

Indeed. I just looked at your profile though, seems you're against not only Iraq but also Afghanistan and the whole War on Terror? Perhaps this could be a subject of debate for us. Are you just against the way we are fighting this war? Or do you think it is not real or we shouldn't be fighting terrorists?

I you want I'll let you choose the debate question and make the first shot. If not then I shall see you around the site.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by SirJDKnightCroix 9 years ago
SirJDKnightCroix
...And Seldumonde, I concur. Let's debate one of those issues. I'll let you start with Iraq. Go ahead.
Posted by SirJDKnightCroix 9 years ago
SirJDKnightCroix
We probably disagree on a lot more, I didn't "check" all of the issues. I'm very far from you on the spectrum.

Grow some cojones man! Debate!

:-]

- J.D.
Posted by thinkingduck 9 years ago
thinkingduck
Just a large corporation might monopolize a market, I think a huge problem with unions is monopolizing representation of workers. Although there are hypothetically competitive elections in unions, in reality they tend to be too inflexible, and ideologically exclusive. Oh well, a worker can always vote with his feet and leave the job if it is bad enough.
Posted by alexthemoderate 9 years ago
alexthemoderate
Hmm...the problem is that I checked the issues thing and we disagree on only 3 issues and they were all boring. Plus, I don't really want to get into the debates. I'm kind of into just looking around and commenting. If that's lame, then that's lame.

Good day sir!
Posted by SirJDKnightCroix 9 years ago
SirJDKnightCroix
Mr. Moderate...let's settle this once and for all.

I'll let you pick the issue.

Let's duel.

;-]

- J.D.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
The excessive power of corporations is a problem...
Posted by alexthemoderate 9 years ago
alexthemoderate
Bill of Rights, 1st Amendment
"...the right of the people to peaceably assemble..."

That seems pretty clear to me.

Just a few things that we owe to labor unions:
The 5-day work week (thus, the weekend)
The 40 hour work week (full-time)
Child Labor Laws
Minimum Wage
Commercial/Industrial Safety Standards
Worker's Compensation
Pensions
etc.

I see that you are particularly ticked with Teacher's Unions, mainly tenure. I don't really disagree with you on that point, however, unions aren't the bad guy, and the teacher's unions aren't the problem either. In order for teachers (mainly women) to stay teachers (and avoid shortages), districts started offering tenure to keep teachers around. We have a shortage of teachers, although it has backfired to some degree.

One last thing:
"They endorse Democrats almost always"

The reason behind Unions endorsement of the Democrats is really simple--Democrats support Unions (they are vessels of socialist values...) and Republicans, for the most part, do not support the expansion of unions.
--You don't endorse someone who wants to make you disappear.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
SirJDKnightCroixseldumondeTied
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Vote Placed by Lacan 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by seldumonde 9 years ago
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