The Instigator
Atheist-Independent
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
SCOTSKNIGHT12
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

It would be wise for Scotland to become an independent nation

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Atheist-Independent
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/25/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 922 times Debate No: 60923
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Atheist-Independent

Con

Round 1: Acceptance

This debate will be centered around the Scottish Independence Referendum and whether or not it would be wise for Scotland to become independent of the UK. I will be arguing for the Con and will try to show how it would be unwise for Scotland to become independent. My opponent will argue for the Pro side.

Debate Structure:

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Arguments
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: Concluding Statements/Rebuttals

Notice:

Keep note that this debate will not discuss the historical aspect of the Scottish Independence Referendum (i.e. Scottish Wars of Independence) but will purely analyze the political aspect of the upcoming referendum.

Expecting a great debate, good luck!
SCOTSKNIGHT12

Pro

I accept, but one question am I going for independence of Scotland or against. Please tell me con.
Debate Round No. 1
Atheist-Independent

Con

Round 2: Arguments

As I stated in the previous round, I will be arguing against the independence of Scotland. I will divide my argument into two subdivisions. These will be:

D1: Economic Reasons
D2: Political Reasons

Let the debating begin!

D1: Economic Reasons

1. UK's Debts

Currently the UK has a debt of about £1 trillion, and part of this debt is created by Scotland. Should Scotland vote to become independent, they would be forced to pay a solid percent of the national debt. While currently the debt that Scotland would have to inherit would not be too overwhelming (about £130 billion) it could prove to be a difficult challenge to overcome given that Scotland would be a brand new nation just beginning to get its bearings [1].

2. British Pound

One major concern for the Scottish voters is whether or not they would be able to continue using the British Pound and a form of currency after a separation from the UK. When asked this question Chancellor George Osborne clearly stated that it would be "highly unlikely" that Scotland would be able to continue usage of the Pound. This presents a major issue for Scotland, as the only two options for currency that remain after the Pound would be the Euro or to create their own currency. These are two equally dreadful paths as the Euro is currently tanking throughout Europe and it is unlikely that a new currency would succeed in the short term for a brand new nation.

3. North Sea Oil

Currently the oil in the North Sea has employed over 450,000 people across the UK, most of which are Scottish, and provides for 67% of the UK's oil needs [2]. Given the separation of Scotland, the UK is put in a very bad position as they will be forced to find other sources of oil/energy. However, this could prove to be a bad thing for Scotland as well due to the fact that the North Sea Oil will dry up in around 40 to 50 years. This would be particularly strenuous on Scotland due to the fact that it has no other natural resources outside of the oil. So while the economy of Scotland is currently quite good, it is likely to flounder in no less than half a century should they separate from the UK.

D2: Political Reasons

1. Loss of Political Influence

This point is obvious, yet important none the less. Given a separation of Scotland from the UK, Scotland will lose a significant portion of their political influence around the world given that they are no longer a powerful nation. This could result in nations attempting to manipulate Scotland into giving them the North Sea Oil, or at least a portion of it.

2. EU

Scotland is currently hoping that if they become independent, part of the blow of the loss of the UK would be joining the EU. However it is not guaranteed that Scotland would be admitted into the EU. The reasoning for this is that the EU does not want any other sub-countries to become inspired by Scotland's independence (i.e. Barcelona, Basque, Flanders) and declare a referendum of their own [3]. While it is unlikely that Scotland will be rejected into the EU, their is still the possibility. Should they not be accepted into the EU, Scotland will be stuck without allies and will not be able to set up trade networks that could prove to be necessary given the dwindling supply of North Sea Oil.

3. Nuclear Weapons

One slightly awkward problem that is presented with the upcoming referendum is what happens with the UK's nuclear weapons that are stationed in Scotland if Scotland becomes independent. There is some debate about what should happen to the nuclear weapons, some wanting them out of Scotland instantly after the deceleration of independence while some are more lenient. However the whole situation could turn into a diplomatic nightmare for the brand new nation given that they won't have any allies to help them in the matter.

Conclusion

Their are simply too many negative events that could occur given the event of Scottish independence. I have clearly shown that their are many political and economic reasons for Scotland to stay within the UK (and the EU).

Sources

[1] http://www.theweek.co.uk...
[2] http://www.bbc.co.uk...
[3] http://www.vice.com...
SCOTSKNIGHT12

Pro

Round 2: Argument

-In my opinion I"m honored to accept this challenge. Thank you Atheist-Independent for letting me do this challenge.

-I"m going to name some reasons why Scotland should be independent.

I. Scotland has a rich and diverse Economy
"They have "2.4 billion in construction which employs around 170,000 jobs, "11.6 billion in tourism which supports about 292,000 jobs, "39 billion yearly turnover in manufacturing with a value added of "12.7 billion and about 127,000 jobs. Scotland also has world leading expertise in life science, world class universities( 5 in the world"s top 200), a multi-billion pound creative sector and vast energy( oil, gas, tidal, wave, wind, and solar), fishing and agricultural resources." http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk..., By: Michael Gray.

II. Scotland Generates far more tax than the UK average
"Scotland generated "800 more in tax per person than the UK as a whole in 2012-2013. Scotland has generated more tax per head than the UK every year for the past 33 years. The graph below is for a shorter time period but produced by the UK Government. Even in the years where oil prices were lowest, Scotland tax generation was always been considerably higher than the UK average and England in particular." http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk..., By: Michael Gray.

III. Scotland has Strong Exports
"Scotland"s top export markets are USA, Netherlands, France and Germany, which are worth a combined total worth of "9.5 billion. Scottish whiskey exports are valued at "4.27 billion last year. This is because Scotland export 40 bottles every second! The food and drink market is key to Scotland"s exports across the world. Other key industries include chemical manufacturing, computer products, finance and insurance and other forms of equipment. With the powers of independence combining with the Scottish Government gaining direct control over international relations, there is a target to increase exports by 50%, which would create over 100,000 jobs." http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk..., By: Micheal Gray.

IV. No more building Nuclear Weapons
"We should stop building Nuclear Weapons in Scotland, it is unethical and morally wrong. Under "The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons" the UK expects all other countries to sign this agreement to disarm Nuclear Weapons, but has excluded itself. Under the treaty it continues to build more Nuclear Weapons in Scotland. If you believe in peace instead of war, let's stop building weapons of mass destruction and start caring for the people and the planet." http://www.independentscotland.org...

V. Believing in the creation in more Jobs
"With an ever rising energy and electricity demand in Europe, Scotland could be one of the global leading suppliers. Scotland has many natural resources that allow sustainable energy for which more jobs are created. Furthermore when Scotland becomes Independent, many centralized services and offices, like Tax Offices, DVLA etc have to be set up in Scotland. This will create many jobs and jobs provide an income, which is good for the economy and beneficial for us all." http://www.independentscotland.org...

VI. Believe in a more equal wage
"The difference in wage in London compared to Scotland for example is huge. This gap is growing and with the current UK Government the richest only seem to get richer and the poor becoming poorer. With a smaller gap between the highest and lowest incomes, there will be less jealousy, greed and more happiness if we're have more equal wages." http://www.independentscotland.org...

VII. Scotland has the resources and finances
Scotland has the resources and finances to become independent. One of the early myths created by the No Campaign has been debunked and even the Unionists agree that Scotland has what it takes to become independent and the Scottish people will be better off financially. http://www.independentscotland.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Atheist-Independent

Con

Round 3: Rebuttals

Unfortunately, my opponent plagiarized his entire argument. I understand that this is his first debate, however it is important to note that plagiarizing in any form is strictly forbidden on this website. However, I will allow the debate to continue and will allow the voters to decide on how to grade us.

I. Scotland has a rich and diverse economy

This argument is true that Scotland does have a diverse economy as of such. However, should Scotland become independent their thriving economy is bound to suffer. This is due to the fact that they will no longer have both the support of the UK and of the UK's many allies. Also, in about half of a century Scotland's economy is going to take another blow when the North Sea Oil runs dry [1].

The real question here is whether or not Scotland will be able to sustain itself in both the short term and the long term following a seperation from the UK. Due to the fact that Scotland is primarily a one resource nation (Oil) the economy is bound to fail at some point, similarly to the countries in the Middle-East.

II. Scotland generates far more tax than the average UK person

The reason that Scotland produces higher tax is solely because the UK has placed higher taxes on the people of Scotland. On average, every Scottish person pays £1,350 per year higher than the average person in the UK [2]. While this may be cause for independence (taxation without representation!) the reality of the matter is that once Scotland becomes independent taxes are going to raise even higher than the amount that they are currently at. This is due to the fact that Scotland does not have a high enough population to sustain the state pension. This means that unless Scotland's population magically increases from 5.2 million to 7 million in about half a century, every Scottish person will be forced to pay £700 more tax annually [3].

III. Scotland has strong exports

While this is currently true, that Scotland has many strong nations to trade with, following independence many of these bonds will be broken. This is due to the fact that it is not Scotland that has alliances with these nations but the UK. While it is not likley that Scotland will never develop new trading alliances with these countries in the future, it is certain that Scotland's economy will suffer greatly following independence and will take some time to regain its footing.

IV. No more building Nuclear Weapons

This argument confused me, are you saying that Scotland should become independent because the UK is evil? Also, who is to say that Scotland is going to stop building Nukes following independence. There is also my argument from round two about how are these British weapons within Scotland going to be dealt with if Scotland becomes independent.

V. Believing in the creation of more jobs

Scotland has one major energy resource: Oil. While this may prove to be helpful in the short term, basing a countries entire economy on Oil (and apparently Whisky) is a very bad idea due to the fact that this oil resource is not going to last another fifty years. What will happen to all these new jobs once the oil drys up?

VI. Belief in a more equal wage

The reason that Scotland and London have different wages is because Scotland is a country while London is a city. If you compare the wages of Scotland and England then you see a much more equal balance. Graph A displays this:


In fact Graph A does not show that Scotland actually overtook the UK in average GDP in the past couple of years. Now the average GDP per capita in Scotland is $45,904 while the UK's is $43,830 [4,5].

VII. Scotland has the resources and finances

This argument has appeared several times throughout this rebuttal, and I will give the same responce. Scotland has only one legitimate resource, which is Oil. Given the fact that the North Sea Oil is eventually going to dry up, Scotland is basing its entire future on a resource that will not even last.

Conclusion

I have shown that there is no good reason for Scotland to become independent and that if they do they are destined to fail due to the fact that their one good resource is bound to run out within the next fifty years.

Sources

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk...
[2] http://scotreferendum.com...
[3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
SCOTSKNIGHT12

Pro

SCOTSKNIGHT12 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Atheist-Independent

Con

Oh well, this was shaping up to be an interesting debate.
SCOTSKNIGHT12

Pro

Sorry, I've been gone all weekend so I couldn't debate. So thats why it said I forfeited. But back to the real topic now. I'm going to put my rebuttal in this round since I wasn't here last round.

Plagiarism- the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

I did not take those notes as my own, but I will say this I know he said he wants to debate me so I will.

Rebuttal-

UK's Debt:
Yes I will say UK does have a huge debt, but Scotland only makes up a small portion of it. Most of the debt comes from England and Wales. Which to me makes a lot of since. Also we have seen many nations come out of big debts before. Like the USA. I know it was like hundreds of years after the USA was formed, but it still was one of the biggest debts in the world. It was a challenge, but after creating new jobs as I later said it helped bring the economy back up.

British Pounds:
I'm not even going to argue with that because it is all true. If Scotland did become independent it would be difficult to get a money system. Because they can no longer use the pound.

North Sea Oil:
Yes Scotland's oil will run out about 40 years or so from now. But by then Scotland could have found new resources or could have started to really mass produce things to keep there economy a float. which by then it must likely wouldn't hurt the Scottish economy that much.

Loss of Political Influence:
Yes it would take some time to gain back a lot of political influence, but it wouldn't be hard considering a lot of the world loved Scotland before independence, and they could decide to help them get back on there feet once again.

EU:
EU most likely will not support Scotland for a while, but after a certain point they would accept Scotland as part of the EU

Nuclear Weapons:
Well of coarse England will take them out of Scotland, but Scotland would be happy for them to. I have two friends that live in Edinburgh, and they said most of the people hate knowing the nukes aren't that far from them. They said they be happy because they wouldn't have to worry about there house blowing into a million bits.

Conclusion:
Thank you for letting me debate against you on this topic. It was a great topic to debate, and also I learned more things about what could happen. Scotland Independence everyone.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Atheist-Independent 3 years ago
Atheist-Independent
Yes but you did not give you're own argument. I would much rather debate SCOTSKNIGHT than Michael Gray.
Posted by SCOTSKNIGHT12 3 years ago
SCOTSKNIGHT12
hey dummy actually i quoted and told who wrote it and put the site which does't make it plagiarism by the law.
Posted by SCOTSKNIGHT12 3 years ago
SCOTSKNIGHT12
Sorry couldn't was so happy someone finally wanted to debate about this I just accepted, but I am ready to argue so GOODLUCK to you Atheist-Independence
Posted by Atheist-Independent 3 years ago
Atheist-Independent
@SCOTSKNIGHT12 you are arguing for the independence of Scotland. I hope you intended to debate for this view.
Posted by SCOTSKNIGHT12 3 years ago
SCOTSKNIGHT12
Can't post till tomorrow so sorry if I take long.
Posted by Dynasty2468 3 years ago
Dynasty2468
I want to debate this, but I have no idea how to approach this..
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by TrasguTravieso 3 years ago
TrasguTravieso
Atheist-IndependentSCOTSKNIGHT12Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct-FF. Arguments - Pro's only real contribuci?n to the debate, his last round, was a series of concessions propped up by interesting but unsubstantiated opinions.