The Instigator
migmag
Pro (for)
The Contender
IttyBittyGaybie
Con (against)

It's WAY too EASY to get FIRED

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Debate Round Forfeited
migmag has forfeited round #4.
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Time Remaining
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 206 times Debate No: 93761
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

migmag

Pro

It's about time Americans realize that with Unionization at an ALL TIME LOW, job protection and illegal terminations are ALSO at an All Time High!
IttyBittyGaybie

Con

I accept.
I am unsure of what is actually being debated, so I am going to assume that we are debating the topic as of whether or not it's alright to be fired so easily and whether or not the reasons behind it are fair/logical? Please correct me if I am wrong as your description of the debate is very vague.
I will be debating from a legal stance, so if you're offended by anything, please do not take it personally.

Although it is easy to get fired in America, there is usually a decent reason behind why people are fired, ranging from multiple warnings being given (and the employee not listening to them), ticking off the boss, and sometimes going as far as breaking the law in the workplace.
Written warnings and written firing papers are often given by the employer to the employee. If the employee had any issues with the warnings given or why they were fired, they could easily take it to court and/or bring it to some sort of legal team. Most of the time, the reason for the warning/being fired is valid and won't be investigated further unless the employee was illegally fired (and was given no written explanation) or if the reason for being fired was completely unreasonable. In those cases, the employee usually gets some sort of compensation.

In the end, the majority of people fired were fired because of their own actions, correct?

I await my opponent's argument.
Debate Round No. 1
migmag

Pro

So first of all I would like to say you are the FIRST person on this ENTIRE website that has treated me with ANY decency! So THANK YOU =) Thank you for admitting it's Easy to get Fired. I want to clarify, I work in Human Resources, Employee Relations, so I know all the Corporate rules and regulations, and I also know the CONFIDENTIAL Corporate behavior and actions. Yes, sometimes, some people do get fired for just cause, though we could debate if that person should have been given better support, more chances, etc. as well as we could debate whether it's good for the ECONOMY that people can be Fired so easily also. For Example, in many cases I've handled the employee was given multiple warnings, but the data said that HAD shown improvement, UNfortunately the employees Supervisor or Manager wanted them GONE, so even though there was NO just cause to fire them, they were let go anyway. In some cases the employee recognizes it and asks for a PAYOUT because they know something ILLEGAL is going on, and we APPROVE giving them a PayOut of several months of their pay to have them "Go Away". Does THAT sound like something our employers "should" be able to do? Having worked at a Survey company, I can tell you the majority of Americans think it's NO ok for employers to get away with doing things like that. As far as I'm aware "ticking off the boss" is NOT in the employee handbook. That's another thing we COULD discuss, SHOULD supervisors and manager have ALL the power while the employees have NONE? THAT is one of the MAIN purposes of Unions, that give employees PROTECTIONS from supervisors, managers and HRs who ABUSE all the Power they are given. Obviously people who break the law deserve to be fired, but those examples are exceptionally rare. My point mostly focuses on how EASY it is to get fired, whether you're Tardy or Absent as little as ONCE or because you happen to be the person with the least "sales" this month or whatever the case may be.
Regarding paperwork, some employer actually do everything in their power to NOT provide the employees with written proof of their termination. And even for the employees who DO have that paperwork, MOST Americans recognize employees are POOR or VERY LOW income (NO income after you FIRE them!) HOW are they supposed to AFFORD a lawyer? Yes, we happen to know there MAY be SOME "pro bono" lawyers out there, but MANY Americans do NOT know that, and guess what? Unless you have an OBVIOUS "win", the "free" lawyers are VERY unlikely to take your case! I really want to impress upon you that the way you express yourself on this issue is VERY inaccurate IN the sense that you make it sound "EASY" to fight your employer, when it's the POLAR opposite. IT's VERY difficult and don't forget, business and corporations have MILLIONS even BILLIONS of dollars, MOST employees I'm talking about are POOR or have NO assets or resources, again, i'm talking about the bottom 50% of Americans, they only make between 5 to 15$/hour! Here is something else I most people don't know. Corporations and Big Business who do NOT have Unions, not only do NOT allow the employee to bring a "witness" to corrective action meetings, but they FORBID ANY type of Recording Device! So HOW on EARTH are they supposed to have PROOF that their employer has SAID something or DONE something ILLEGAL if they are NOT allowed to acquire the EVIDENCE? Also, employers do NOT provide the employees with the DATA they NEED to be able to PROVE that they are performing as GOOD if not BETTER than many of their coworkers. Regarding your last 2 comments, one, it's EXTREMELY rare that employees get "some sort of compensation EVEN when the employers KNOWS they are getting rid of them for an UNJUST cause. Lastly, EVEN for those employees who WERE fired due to their "own actions" does NOT mean that the ONE chance to prove themselves was enough. Most people feel that Firing should be the LAST possible option! After all, we're talking about the possibility of making the employee involved BANKRUPT, HOMELESS and HUNGRY! Thanks for listening, glad I could share my Human Resources training to clear some things up about the realities of employment in the US
IttyBittyGaybie

Con

I thank you for a quick reply. It's always nice to keep the debate at a steady pace =).
Before I state my argument, I'd like to make a polite recommendation. It's quite hard to read your argument when it's just one blob of text. Try spacing it out according to topic (sort of how the body of an essay is written).
I will be quoting sections from your argument for personal reference when typing up my argument.

--"unfortunately the employees Supervisor or Manager wanted them GONE, so even though there was NO just cause to fire them, they were let go anyway. In some cases the employee recognizes it and asks for a PAYOUT because they know something ILLEGAL is going on, and we APPROVE giving them a Payout of several months of their pay to have them "Go Away". Does THAT sound like something our employers "should" be able to do"--
In regards to just letting go of employees without an actual cause, isn't it possible that they are being laid off due to a more promising worker has come by and/or it's getting difficult to pay the worker due to low funds circulating in the company itself? If something illegal is going on, I'm sure the employee would be smart enough to recognize such actions and report it to the authorities unless you're mentioning the possibility of them being illegally fired? The employers should be paying at least a month of the worker's pay if they are let go of, even if it's to make them go away. If they were illegally fired, the court should be on the case anyway, or at least the employee should be informing the authorities and/or getting a court hearing organized. It is the employee's fault if they do not alert the authorities of illegal actions in the workplace or of an illegal lay-off, as the authorities have no way of knowing in the first place. If the worker doesn't take action, then it can be assumed that they did not care to begin with.

--"As far as I'm aware "ticking off the boss" is NOT in the employee handbook. That's another thing we COULD discuss, SHOULD supervisors and manager have ALL the power while the employees have NONE? THAT is one of the MAIN purposes of Unions, that give employees PROTECTIONS from supervisors, managers and hrs who ABUSE all the Power they are given"--
I do in fact have a part time job (I am still a minor, so my apologies if my lack of work makes me seem uneducated). Speaking from experience, "ticking off the boss" is in fact in the handbook, at least where I work, however is not written in those exact words. My apologies for my vagueness. Please allow me to reword it to 'insubordination, intimidation, and/or verbal/physical harassment'. Harassing the boss physically/verbally should be and usually is a valid reason to be laid off, as nobody deserves to be treated in such amount of disrespect. Insubordination is also considered, again in most cases, a valid reason to be laid off. The employee should follow /most of/ the employer's instructions if it means getting the task at hand accomplished, otherwise you're not doing your job, correct? In regards to your question, bosses should not have all the power, and in most cases, they don't. Employees are allowed to argue with their bosses if the situation deems it necessary. In the case where the boss doesn't listen, as you stated, the union steps in. If the boss is doing something illegally or unlawfully, again, they should be reported to the authorities.

--"My point mostly focuses on how EASY it is to get fired, whether you're Tardy or Absent as little as ONCE or because you happen to be the person with the least "sales" this month or whatever the case may be"--
Depending on the job, such lay offs can be considered acceptable. If you're absent or late just once or twice, the lay off should be considered unacceptable unless (using your example) the absence caused the worker to be below the quota of sales for the month. Each boss is different, and some bosses are uptight and expect each worker to meet a quota, and if they don't, they get replaced. Such rules and expectations are to be explained before the person or when the person gets the job, so unless they were sick or something more serious, the worker should know what the boss expects and their punishment if they so happen to not meet up with expectations. Again, they can easily be replaced, and I'm sure you know why (if you don't. I have no problems explaining).

--"Regarding paperwork, some employer actually do everything in their power to NOT provide the employees with written proof of their termination. And even for the employees who DO have that paperwork, MOST Americans recognize employees are POOR or VERY LOW income (NO income after you FIRE them!) HOW are they supposed to AFFORD a lawyer? Yes, we happen to know there MAY be SOME "pro bono" lawyers out there, but MANY Americans do NOT know that, and guess what? Unless you have an OBVIOUS "win", the "free" lawyers are VERY unlikely to take your case"--
I'd just like to point out that you do not need a lawyer in small cases, and sometimes larger depending on the situation. It's always good to have a lawyer, however.

--"I really want to impress upon you that the way you express yourself on this issue is VERY inaccurate IN the sense that you make it sound "EASY" to fight your employer, when it's the POLAR opposite. IT's VERY difficult and don't forget, business and corporations have MILLIONS even BILLIONS of dollars, MOST employees I'm talking about are POOR or have NO assets or resources, again, i'm talking about the bottom 50% of Americans, they only make between 5 to 15$/hour!"--
I do not aim to make it sound easy, so I apologize for my naive wordplay. To reiterate, an employee can fight their boss, however preparations should be made beforehand as to give a decent argument in order to have at least a small chance of getting the point across.
Corporations with that much money will probably not lay off workers in such an unlawful manner, as the media will latch onto such information and therefore bring expenses down that are flowing to the company due to the bad name made for the company. If the corporation does lay off someone in an unlawful manner and the media catches on, they'd most likely do anything to get their name better.

--" Here is something else I most people don't know. Corporations and Big Business who do NOT have Unions, not only do NOT allow the employee to bring a "witness" to corrective action meetings, but they FORBID ANY type of Recording Device! So HOW on EARTH are they supposed to have PROOF that their employer has SAID something or DONE something ILLEGAL if they are NOT allowed to acquire the EVIDENCE?"--
You make a good point there, migmag. However, is it possible that the employee could ask for the employer to sign something, like a sheet of paper with details of the meeting? I would think it would depend on the boss, however.

--"Also, employers do NOT provide the employees with the DATA they NEED to be able to PROVE that they are performing as GOOD if not BETTER than many of their coworkers."--
When giving out warnings, I would assume that many employers print out some sort of sheet that shows just that. Speaking from experience, my employer did that for me when I started slacking off as to issue a warning for not meeting standards given to me. I would take a photo of the sheet and send it to you if possible, however I do not know of a way to do that on this website as I am still relatively new.

--"Regarding your last 2 comments, one, it's EXTREMELY rare that employees get "some sort of compensation EVEN when the employers KNOWS they are getting rid of them for an UNJUST cause."--
When it is taken to court, the employee can demand compensation. I was talking about when the employer is proven guilty.

--"Lastly, EVEN for those employees who WERE fired due to their "own actions" does NOT mean that the ONE chance to prove themselves was enough. Most people feel that Firing should be the LAST possible option! After all, we're talking about the possibility of making the employee involved BANKRUPT, HOMELESS and HUNGRY! "--
Again, the employee should have been given at least a warning before being fired, yet they continued to act unaccordimgly. Why should such an individual be kept in the workplace if they are just a burden?

Again, thanks for the quick reply.

I await my opponent's argument.
Debate Round No. 2
migmag

Pro

Thanks for the advice, I'll do my best to keep it easier to read.
Regarding "letting go of employees without actual cause", I can assure you that most Americans are not in favor of employers being able to do that, nor are they in favor of their employer looking for a more "promising worker" to replace them. As for it "getting difficult to pay the worker due to low funds circulating in the company itself" I'm not talking about employers that are SO small they have THAT little of payroll budget, I'm talking about Big Businesses and Large Corporation firing employees.
As far as "when something illegal is going on" you are giving employees who make Five to Ten dollars an hour WAY too much credit if you think they know "how to report it to the authorities" And while you may think they "should" pay the employee atleast 1 month pay "even if it's to make them go away" I can assure you THAT is NOT their Corporate Policy, they ONLY do that for employees who KNOW to ASK, and even THEN unless the employee has them "dead to rights" they many times won't! While you may think "the court should be on the case of employees that are let go without cause anyway" that is absolutely not the case, because without witnesses or proof, how do you expect an employee versus a big and powerful business is going to come out on top in a "he said, she said" scenario? They aren't. The Business almost always wins. After all, if you made 5 to 10$/hour and didn't have a penny in the bank (because at those wages who can) you just give up and move on.
You know you're NEVER going to win that case, and even if you did, WHO can afford to devote DAYS WEEKS MONTHS fighting a multimillion dollar employer with ZERO in the bank? No one! Have you ever called "the authorities", what is their name? What do you have it in your mind that they'll do? If you call them and tell them my manager or supervisor told me they fired me because I was Black or Gay or Jewish or whatever, guess what? They'll say WHAT PROOF do you have? You won't have ANY because NO CO WORKER will EVER back you up EVEN if they DID hear your employer say bigoted things to you or about you! So I'd be careful about being too hard on the Minimum Wage earning NO PAID TIME OFF receiving employee. Do not jump to the conclusion that they did NOT "care" about getting fired just because they didn't report it, in SOME cases they COMMIT SUICIDE over it because they feel its the SAME ALL OVER and they had NO chance of winning.
Thanks for listening, I hope you have a nice weekend
IttyBittyGaybie

Con

My apologies, but I need to forfeit this round. I will not be able to type up a proper argument in time due to the moving truck coming to my house and dropping my family's stuff off. I will be able to argue next round, however.

Thanks in advance.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Agingseeker 7 months ago
Agingseeker
Both Peter Drucker and W Edwards Demming agreed on this, that the workplace suffers from the insecurity that is currently the part of most jobs. But I sure don;'t think unions help. Heck, the ruined teaching.

"Drive Fear Out" is Point 8 of Deming's famous 14 Points for Management,

======
To the extent that employees still feel slightly fearful, Drucker maintained, it"s the opposite of motivational. "Great fear drives," Drucker pointed out, "while remnants of fear, such as exist for most American workers today, cause only resentment and resistance."
And while fear of outside forces, such as competitors, can be healthy, internal fears are not. "Fear of a threat to the community unites," Drucker noted in the Practice of Management. "But fear of someone within the community divides and corrodes. It corrupts both him who uses fear and him who fears."
Posted by migmag 7 months ago
migmag
Just a reminder, I'm doing this because I have Unlimited, Confidential access to thousands of cases are our largest employers in the country and how they've treated their employees. I take call from employees all over the world and what has happened to them and how they've been treated. Thanks for realizing how serious and important this is
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