The Instigator
KingDebater
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
airmax1227
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

Izbo10 deserved to win this debate.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+5
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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
airmax1227
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/23/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,070 times Debate No: 30593
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

KingDebater

Pro

Resolution: Izbo10 deserved to win this debate: http://debate.org...

I'll be arguing that Izbo10 deserved to win the debate above.

Structure of debate:
Round 1 - Acceptance
Round 2/3/4/5 - Arguments and Rebuttals
airmax1227

Con

I accept my opponent's challenge that Izbo deserved to win the linked debate. I will be arguing that Izbo did not deserve to win.

Good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
KingDebater

Pro

There are seven possible points that could've been given.
Spelling & Grammar - 1 point
More reliable sources - 2 points
Conduct - 1 point
More convincing arguments - 3 points

Spelling & Grammar (1)
Tie. They both had good grammar.

More reliable sources (2)
Izbo10. He used three quite reliable sources whilst Keytarhero only used one source.

Conduct (1)
Izbo10, as Keytarhero didn't take part in the debate at all.

More convincing arguments (3)
Tie. Neither of them made real arguments.

So that is 3 points to Izbo10 and none to Keytarhero. If every voter voted logically, Izbo10 would've won.
airmax1227

Con

Since my opponent wants to break down the debate by point categories I'll rebut his arguments and do the same:

Spelling & Grammar (1)

My opponent says:
"Tie. They both had good grammar."

I say:
In Izbo's second round he wrote:
"My opponent has not addressed the topic, he voted in another debate this argument took a valid form, He should be able to defend the conclusion of the debate if the form is correct."

Being that this is the only s/g issue I can find in debate, if one were to award s/g points (which I only recommend in significant cases, and this debate wouldn't be included) they should be awarded to Keytar.

More reliable sources (2)

My opponent says:
Izbo10. He used three quite reliable sources whilst Keytarhero only used one source.

I say:
Just like in the above, since this debate doesn't come down to the significance of sources, I wouldn't award points to either.

Conduct (1)
My opponent says:
"Izbo10, as Keytarhero didn't take part in the debate at all."

I say:
Izbo plagiarized and c/p'd his opening round. He also insults the readers by saying:

"I am going to do a syllogism, I know, I know you guys have no clue what one is but you will see"

So given that, Keytar deserves conduct points.

More convincing arguments (3)
My opponent says:
"Tie. Neither of them made real arguments."

I say:
I agree with this. This debate wasn't really about the debate resolution or topic but about Izbo complaining about a separate incident.

My opponent concludes:
"So that is 3 points to Izbo10 and none to Keytarhero. If every voter voted logically, Izbo10 would've won."

I say:
I disagree. This debate ultimately isn't about the arguments, s/g, or sources, but about Izbo's conduct. This is reflected in the votes on the debate and the general sense one gets from reading the debate. Therefore if one were to vote on the only criteria separating the debaters, Keytar gets 1 point from each vote, entirely for conduct.

I'll leave it there for this round.
Debate Round No. 2
KingDebater

Pro

Even so, Keytar would've only gotten 11 points instead of the 51 he actually got. I'd argue that Izbo10 should've gotten the More reliable sources vote. His sources were all quite reliable,[1] [2] [3] especially when compared to the one link that Keytarhero gave that doesn't even work. [4] So therefore, if the voters voted logically, Izbo10 would have 22 points and Keytarhero would have 11 points, making Izbo10 the winner.

Sources

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org... (http://debate.org...)
[2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...;(http://debate.org...)
[3] http://education.yahoo.com...;(http://debate.org...)
[4] http://www.debate.org...;(http://debate.org...)

airmax1227

Con

It seems like the focus of my opponent's argument is on source points.

Since sources weren't a significant aspect of the substance of the debate, they shouldn't be voted on. A good example of this would be the sources used in my opponent's last round. Should he be given points because he sources the sources Izbo used? Should this sourcing be significant enough to award him source points in voting on this debate?

I say no, because in this debate those sources mean little to the substance of this debate and arguments, and in the case of the subject at hand, they meant little to the outcome of the debate between Izbo and Keytar. 2 of 11 voters thought it was necessary to give sources to Izbo, yet still didn't think he should win (and that is the ultimate issue at hand), while the majority didn't even think it was significant enough to offer source points at all. While the votes themselves don't entirely make this case, the debate itself ultimately has little to do with the sources used because the debate result has little to do with the arguments.

Therefore I maintain that Keytar should win with a total score of 11-0 (1 point for conduct from each voter).
Debate Round No. 3
KingDebater

Pro

Yet Izbo10 used sources relating to the topic. So Izbo should've had sources and should've won the debate.
airmax1227

Con

My opponent says in the last round:

"Yet Izbo10 used sources relating to the topic. So Izbo should've had sources and should've won the debate."

As I've already argued, sources in this debate shouldn't be counted because they mean little to the substance of the debate, and more importantly, the outcome. But let's ignore that for a second and actually look at the sources Izbo used [1]:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org... [2]

This wiki link to "special pleading" can ultimately be ignored because Keytar debunks its usage in the specific case of their debate.

2) http://www.thefreedictionary.com... [3]

This link to "The Free Dictionary.com" simply links to the free dictionary.com. It doesn't link to any particular word or reference. It's a pointlessly used source.

3) http://education.yahoo.com... [4]

This link that Izbo used links to a Yahoo education page, but doesn't link to anything specific, and especially not anything relayed to the debate, making it a pointless source as well.

Therefore all three of these sources have little to do with the debate or the outcome and shouldn't be used to offer Izbo source points. [5]

As readers can see below, I have given 5 sources at the bottom of my round. Since these sources are mostly redundant and aren't crucial to understanding this debate they can be ignored when it comes to voting. This is actually an important aspect when it comes to voting on this site. Some debaters will attempt to essentially "spam" sources in the hopes that voters will see the quantity of them, and give that debater those points. Thankfully, most DDO voters are savvy enough to see through this, as was the case in the Izbo debate, and generally ignore those points.

So ultimately, me and my opponent agree that arguments are tied, s/g is tied, and I've argued that sources are tied, and the only points given should be conduct to Keytar. Therefore Keytar should win based on the awarded conduct points.

[1] http://debate.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[4] http://education.yahoo.com...
[5] http://debate.org...
Debate Round No. 4
KingDebater

Pro

Even so, "more reliable sources" is a category, and should be counted in a debate. Thus, Izbo should"ve won.
airmax1227

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate.

In his final round he says the following:

"Even so, "more reliable sources" is a category, and should be counted in a debate. Thus, Izbo should"ve won."

My opponent essentially ignores my previous round and just reiterates his source argument. I've already argued against this argument, but will do so again here.

Source points should not be given unless there is a significant reason to do so. Since Izbo's sources were mostly pointless, he shouldn't be given any credit for using them, and they were definitely not reliable, as they didn't actually specify anything related to the debate. Of course, Keytar didn't use any reliable sources either. Therefore sources should be tied.

To reiterate, source points should be given when one debater uses a significant amount of quality sources related to the subject matter, in contrast to his opponent. They shouldn't be given when it's a "grey area", or 4 quality sources versus 3 quality sources. Points should only be given when sources are significant enough that they play an important enough role in the debate. That wasn't the case in the debate that is the subject of this debate, and thus shouldn't be voted on.

The only points that should be awarded in that debate are conduct points, entirely to Keytar.

Therefore Keytar should win based on conduct.

My opponent has therefore not carried his burden of proof in this debate that Izbo should have won his debate with Keytar.

I'd like to thank my opponent and anyone who read this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by KeytarHero 3 years ago
KeytarHero
Someone was actually debating over my debate?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 3 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
KingDebaterairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate boiled down to the issue of MRS (most reliable sources). Con argued "Since sources weren't a significant aspect of the substance of the debate, they shouldn't be voted on." Pro's responded by simply asserting, not true, without explaining how/why. To make matters worse, being both pro & Instigator, he clearly has BOP. Despite all this, Con mercilessly plows on, giving a source by source analysis, showing them to be unworthy (for lack of better word). Pro responds with a rather incomprehensive, non sequitur, which was basically a repetition of the previous round & thus clearly loses the debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 3 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
KingDebaterairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Another caudatan victory. Pro actually tried to make a case in his opening rounds, but gradually disintegrated into one-sentence assertions as rebuttals, whereas Con provided a thought-out response to each of his claims. Arguments to Con.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
KingDebaterairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: it seems that con almost conceded the last two rounds of the debate by arguing over source points, when the consensus on DDO is that source poitns should be awarded over the quality of sources, not necessarily the quantity. Apart from the disputed soruce vote pro gave up all the other arguments over argument points and conduct points as well, so I give argument points to Airmax on this one
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 3 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
KingDebaterairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's last two rounds went almost fully uncontested and Con argues well about how points for sources should not always be given. Let me know if you need clarification. It is pretty clear cut and really obvious. Pro barely argued his case.