JC was NOT the messiah
Debate Rounds (5)
JC did not fulfill the messianic prophecies, therefore he was NOT the messiah.
For the finer details look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com...
Here are some examples of JC not fulfilling the messianic prophecies, from the following page:
Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.
Mica 5:2-9; "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
Therefore he shall give them up until the time when she who is in travail has brought forth; then the rest of his brethren shall return to the people of Israel.
And he shall stand and feed his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great to the ends of the earth.
And this shall be peace, when the Assyrian comes into our land and treads upon our soil, that we will raise against him seven shepherds and eight princes of men; they shall rule the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod with the drawn sword; and they shall deliver us from the Assyrian when he comes into our land and treads within our border.
Then the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples like dew from the Lord, like showers upon the grass, which tarry not for men nor wait for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among the flocks of sheep, which, when it goes through, treads down and tears in pieces, and there is none to deliver.
Your hand shall be lifted up over your adversaries, and all your enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "they shall rule the land of Assyria with the sword", "Your hand shall be lifted up over your adversaries, and all your enemies shall be cut off ." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zecheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an donkey, on a colt the foal of an donkey. I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall command peace to the nations; his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the war horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. IN HIS DAYS Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: "The Lord is our righteousness.""
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. IN THOSE DAYS and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: "The Lord is our righteousness."."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell securely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
Isaiah 11; "There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear; but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder"s den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
My opponent has not clarified who exactly JC is. Until we know who he is, we cannot assume that my opponent is correct. Since my opponent hasn't clarified who JC is, I will tell you who JC is.
JC is the mighty Julius Ceasar.
Julius Ceasar did indeed retain peace over the land, ruling over with a strong thumb
Not only so he defeated many many others. Wikipedia notes, "Caesar's victories in the Gallic Wars, completed by 51 BC, extended Rome's territory to the English Channel and the Rhine". This shows how powerful Caesar was and how much territory he took.
Not only so Julius Caesar was definitely a secretive wandering preacher and miracle healer.
In this picture, even as a statue, he sought out the light of holy God and tried to give fortune and help out those in need. We can imagine his true power when he wasn't a statue. Nowadays some people still remember Caesar as a secret healer and even made up songs about him
Finally, when Caesar comes redemption comes. Why? Well you see after Caesar was stabbed
The people had to redeem themselves from such acts. When they were reborn they had to face these guys in their next life....
That's redeption indeed.
Keep in mind that, if the prophecy was true, I have managed to prove JC was the messiah.
But, on the other hand, what makes the prophecy the source of all truth? Who's to say that eveything in the prophecy is true? My opponent's source even doubts the testaments. My opponent needs to prove that we can believe the messiah definition to be true based solely on the testaments, otherwise a "messiah" can be anything, even Julius Caesar without all his glorious accomplishments. ;P
"JC" stands for the Christian messiah. Not for Julius Ceasar, not Johny Carson, en no other than the Christian messiah.
As I have shown before, he has not fulfilled the messianic prophecies.
That it is not Julius Ceasar could have deduced from the fact that he did not fulfill for instance this prophecy:
""The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes."
That it was the Christian messiah, could have been deduced from the fact that his name is mentioned three times in my second round.
The fact still remains that he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Okay, of course I was only joking about Julius Caesar. Can't we have fun once in a while? Okay, but back to the serious debate.
First of all, my opponent needs to make the jump of logic that if Jesus fulfills the prophecies, then he is the messiah, and that if he didn't fulfill the prophecies then he isn't the messiah. But he has failed to back up why exactly the prophecies decide whether or not you are a messiah. By definition of Messiah from http://dictionary.reference.com..., a messiah's just a deliverer, and one of the definitions are EVEN JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. Jesus christ did in fact deliver. There is photographic evidence pictured below
He loved parties so much he even delivered ice to the occasion
He even has made his own motto/company thing...
See? He's definitely a deliverer, fulfilling the meaning of messiah.
Even if we agree that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, that still doesn't mean he isn't a messiah. Even if goose isn't spelled the same as geese that doesn't mean they don't have pretty much the same meanings. My opponent needs to prove that one who does not fulfill the prophecies isn't a messiah, because otherwise, he's a messiah based on definition.
But I will give evidence anyways just in case my opponent somehow makes good grounding for the logic that if Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecy he ain't the messiah.
Well first of all he did in fact fulfill 100 prophecies
If you are too lazy to read all of that, then let me have a more concise list of the most important prophecies he fulfilled
And if you still aren't convinced there's evidence right there in the bible in which shows how he fulfilled his prophecies
Source: The youtube video
My opponent needs to rebut the evidence presented above, at the very least.
Back to you, Eliyahu.
As I have shown in my second round of this debate, JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.
What I have brought there, are undisputed messianic prophecies, about which everybody, Jew and Christian, admit that they are messianic prophecies. And no one will content the fact that they are not fulfilled.
Everybody can claim to be the messiah, and in fact many did and still do, and therefore the only valid criteria to establish the veracity of those claims, is the fulfilment of the messianic prophecies.
And in fulfilling them, also JC failed.
So in order to make their false messiah look authentic, Christians rip OT (Only Testament) verses which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, often mistranslate them, and then present them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
This is done by both the NT and individual Christians.
Here are some examples of the NT doing just that:
The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.
Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; "she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us)."
This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el." Revised Standard Version.
We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin", and not "young woman", but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is "almah", and that means "young woman", and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; "The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known."
This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as "virgin".
So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:14 "And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son.""
Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: "out of Egypt I called my son" is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the "son of God" in the Tanach: "And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a "messianic prophecy". Something it obviously is not.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:16-18 "Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more.""
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.
And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: "10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country."
As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.
There is a lot more where this comes from, but I'm limited to only 10.000 characters, so I have to cut it short.
The full text can be read here: https://sites.google.com...
And also Christians do the same thing; rippig OT (Only Testament) verses which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, often mistranslating them, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
Here are a few examples:
324 messianic prophecies, fulfilled by Jesus!
The Baptist preachers, the light of truth glowing in their eyes, give us not a hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, but three hundred and twenty four (!) "messianic prophecies", which are allegedly fulfilled by JC. Which rational thinking human being can deny the messiahship of JC when he is confronted with three hundred and twenty four messianic prophecies, fulfilled by JC? Why is it that those blinded, stiff-necked, stubborn Jews keep on refusing to accept a few extra Gods? Let's face it: If one God is good, than two gods is twice as good, and three gods, the Father, the son & the holy ghost, is three times as good. Why settle for one when you can have three for the price of one?
Maybe the answer to these burning questions lays in the fact that some people actually bother to read those "prophecies". Let us take a look at the "messianic prophecies", presented to us by the honest, God fearing, truth loving, Baptists. The prophecies can be accessed through the homepage of the "Hope of Israel Baptist mission", to be found here: http://hopeofisrael.net...
On the left side of the page is a link with the heading "324 messianic prophecies!". Click on it, and you will end up at the "324 messianic prophecies!"
The first one they start off with:
"Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18"
The claim is that the following verses are a messianic prophecy: "The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The fact of the matter is that nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendent of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins; those things only exist in the minds of brainwashed Christians when they read this text.
Unfortunately I'm again forced to cut of the argument here, I'm running out of space, but the whole article about this deception as it is brought by many Christians and also by my opponent here can be found here:
So there are no 300, no hundred, and no 50 messianic prophecies. What does exist, is hundreds of OT texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, which are ripped out of context, and falsely brought as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC.
But that is of course lies and deceit.
Opponent has yet to make the big important connection that the prophecies are trustworthy and that those who fulfill it are definitely messiahs, and those who do not are not messiahs. Why should we trust these prophecies? They are contradictory against the views of modern day, which define "messiah" as simply the "deliverer..." as shown previously, and one definition even says "Jesus Christ" himself. It is modern time now. We cannot simply adopt and believe the prophecies and testaments. The messiah by definition has changed, and I have shown how Jesus is indeed a deliverer who fulfills the definition of "messiah".
Opponent claimed that "Opponent has yet to make the big important connection that the prophecies are trustworthy and that those who fulfill it are definitely messiahs, and those who do not are not messiahs."
That viewpoint is, of course, WRONG.
I don't have to proof the prophecies are reliable. If they are not, if they would be a lie, God forbid, then the concept of "messiah" wouldn't even get started. Then there is no such a thing as a "messiah". And because I claim that JC was NOT the messiah, there is no need for me to prove the prophecies to be trustworthy. That would only be the case for somebody who wants to proof somebody the messiah, while I do the opposite.
So that claim can be discarded.
And this claim: " I have shown how Jesus is indeed a deliverer who fulfills the definition of "messiah"." is of course nonsense, a picture of JC delivering a pizza is not proving anything.
And bringing OT texts which have no bearing whatsoever on the messiah, and presenting those as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC", that of course proves also nothing. And that is what opponent did. For more about that subject look here:
When you rip random OT text which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and then present them as "messianic prophecies fuflilled by JC", then you can make everybody you want the messiah, be it Barak Obama, Napoleon Bonaparte, or David Koresh.
Examples of that we can see here:
A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)
3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)
9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).
42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.
In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'
(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000
So the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC, as shown before.
If you believe those messianic prophecies are not authentic, then for sure he was not the messiah, then there is no such a thing as a messiah.
The opponent bringing big amounts of non-pertinent verses proves nothing.
If he wants to prove that JC was the messiah, then he has to post clear messianic prophecies here, and prove that they are messianic prophecies, and prove that they are fulfilled by JC.
He has done nothing of that yet, so he didn't prove anything.
Opponent has done nothing like that, so he didn't bring any proof for JC being the messiah.
"I don't have to proof the prophecies are reliable. "
Yes you do. If they aren't reliable then we don't have to trust them to define what messiah is.
"...then the concept of "messiah" wouldn't even get started. "
Yet the dictionary definition is different from the testaments. It seems apparent some unique thinking was there in the process besides the testaments.
"... a picture of JC delivering a pizza is not proving anything."
It proves that JC was a deliverer, fulfilling the definition.
Opponent has failed to prove that messiah is the true definition by the testaments. He has not managed, over and over, failing time after time to ever be able to prove the testaments trustworthy. I on the other hand have given the clear trusted definition on dictionary.com, and shown Jesus to be the deliverer he was. My opponent has failed to prove that messiah=testaments' definition. He has lost this debate, the core of the most important part of JC being a messiah.
I win, VOTE ME.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by warren42 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct-Pro. Although I found Con's jokes funny, and they were relevant, they did detract from the quality of the debate. S&G- Con. I noticed some errors on Pro's part, but didn't notice any from Con. Arguments-Con. Pro should have proven why the prophecies were important. It's pretty easy to prove. Sources-Pro. Pro used better sources.
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