The Instigator
TUF
Pro (for)
Winning
15 Points
The Contender
Cliff.Stamp
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

Jack Bauer is superior to Jason Bourne (David Webb)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,126 times Debate No: 15059
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (32)
Votes (6)

 

TUF

Pro

Seeing as the first time, my opponent forfeited this debate, I am reposting this.

I would like to argue the topic: Jack Bauer is Superior to Jason Bourne (or David Webb). This debate will be purely for fun and seeing as both are fictional characters, we will not be using fact based evidence that doesn't come from either the T.V. show, o the movie.

The intention of this debate will be for either side to prove that the character they are arguing for is better or superior to the other character for any reasons whatsoever. Superior can mean anything, from "Which guy is cooler" to "Which guy would win in a fight" or to "Which one has more resources, and better accomplishes what they want.

So basically there is alot of leeway that both debaters can argue with in this debate.
This debate is intended purely for fun, and I hope that my opponent and the viewers have fun with this debate.

For those of you who don't know either of these characters, Jack Bauer is a fictional character for a T.V. Show called '24', which started back in 2001, played by actor Kiefer Sutherland.

Jason bourne (David Webb) is from a book called 'The Bourne Identity' made in 1980, which then was made into a film in 2002, played by famous actor Matt Damon.

Both characters are deeply intelligent, and have to deal with specific constant strenuous activities in order to complete dangerous goals.

Please use the first round to accept the debate, and I will proceed with my beginning arguments in round 2. I look forward to an exciting and fun debate, and would like to thank my opponent in advance.
Cliff.Stamp

Con

"Please use the first round to accept the debate, and I will proceed with my beginning arguments in round 2."

Accepted.
Debate Round No. 1
TUF

Pro

Pro
I will be arguing to support the topic claiming jack Bauer is superior to Jason Bourne.

A brief road map of my argument will be as follows: Arguments for Jack will be listed as (A) where-as arguments against Jason will be listed as (B).

A1: "Good guy"

Everyone loves a protagonist. Especially when that protagonist is a 'good guy'. Jack Bauer is a super agent, who works for the CTU (Counter Terrorism Unit), which is a branch of the government. In every season Jack is supportive of the goals that the CTU specifies. He has worked for the military, the FBI, and CSI. Among his awards and decorations are the Silver Star, the Purple Heart, and the Legion of Merit. This guy has always been supportive of the goals specific to the United States government, and in his television shows, saves many American lives.
Based on this information, I think it's safe to safe that Bauer is a good guy.

B1: "Bad guy"
In the movie series The bourne Identity, Jason Bourne is being chased by both federal government officials and criminals, in order for him to find his identity.
Bourne volunteered for Operation Treadstone, a top-secret CIA project under which he endured behavioral modification, shaping him into a malleable asset. His first test was to kill a man, after which he was informed that his transformation into Jason Bourne was complete. He initially refused to shoot the unknown man under the pretense that he wasn't given a reason why he was to do so, but after persuasion he capitulated and "killed" the subject, albeit with blanks. While working for a government program, he committed murderous crimes, even before he lost his memory. He is the protagonist of the movie, but his goals are un-supportive of what a 'good guys' goals should be.

A1 part two: Good guy/ Bad guy

Everyone loves a good guy. In every story or novel, the guy who does what is moral, is who (in the end), everybody loves significantly loves. Jack Bauer always supports his moral beliefs even before his operations, where as Jason Bourne, doesn't. Jason bourne is trained to kill in order to accomplish missions, and before losing his memory, would do it. In every season of 24 Jack Bauer always remained alive, and supportive of his office. After the last movie, it was clear that Jason Bourne may have lived, however, his predicament has not changed for the better in the slightest. Which just goes to show, that good guys always win.

My A1 argument thus proves that Bauer is superior, in that people like Jack Bauer more.

A1 part three: Ratings

Based on 38 critics, the Bourne Identity had 26 positive ratings, 11 mixed feelings ratings, and 1 negative rating.
http://www.metacritic.com......

Based on 19 critics, the T.V. Show 24 had 13 positive ratings, with only three negative, and 3 mixed ratings.
http://www.metacritic.com......

While there were more reviews for the bourne identity, the show 24 got significantly better ratings then the movie "the bourne Identity. Again showing that people like Bauer far better the Bourne.

A1 part four: Awards

Entertainment Weekly named Jack Bauer one of The 20 All Time Coolest Heroes in Pop Culture.
http://www.ew.com......

The show 24 has one over 24 awards from anonymous organizations which can be found in this source:
http://www.imdb.com......

The bourne Identity Has only gotten three acclaimed awards.
http://www.imdb.com......

People obviously like the Bauer series better than the latter.

A2: Jack Bauer is a superior combatant to Jason Bourne.

Jack Bauer has worked for almost every major military or investigation outlet of the government. This guy in literally incredible. Is training included far more facilities than acclaimed by Jason Bourne, only receiving major combat training through the central intelligence agency. I have listed all of Bauer's training above already.

A2 part two: In the show 24 Bauer is constantly moving, and granted, if lucky, only minutes of rest in his endeavors. He is constantly moving, or fighting someone in all hours of the each season. This guy is a fighting and survival machine. Each season he continues to live, and continues to do whatever it takes to accomplish his goals, no matter what trial gets in the way, he is always the first to get it handled, and makes quick time of it too. Jack Bauer is a fighting machine even when the odds are against him.

B2 Jason Bourne gets plenty of rest.

Unlike Bauer, Jason is on his own schedule. He is not employed by anyone, and all his goals are his own, not any company's. Between all his action exploits he is offered plenty of time to rest, and collect his wits in order to strategize any physically harmful attempts, where as Bauer is constantly on the move.

A3: Strategist

This argument goes along with my A2 part two, in that Jack Bauer pretty much does things as he goes. He strategizes all his moves literally on the spot, and acts accordingly with the little time given to him to do it.

B3: Jason Bourne has plenty of time to strategize all his efforts. If he were in the same situation as Bauer, how would we know he would be able to strategize on the spot nearly as much as Bauer does, when Jason only encounters a couple of times when strategizing on the spot is absolutely necessary?

A4: Experience

Bauer is not only a superior combatant, he is also more experienced. He goes through eight season (eight very crazy days) throughout the course of fifteen years.
So he is actively using military training and fighting for practically his whole life!

http://www.highdefdigest.com......

B4:
Jason Bourne's endeavors all occur within the same year. We must assume that after his problem is solved there will be no more quarrel or fight. Bauer, working for the government is always required to be using his physical capabilities, while Bourne is limited only to his short hand goals in sight.

Bauer has far more experience then Bourne.

Conclusion:

I have proved the following:
1. People like Jack Bauer better,
2. Jack Bauer is a superior fighter,
3. Jack Bauer is a a better strategist,
and finally
4. Jack Bauer is far more experienced.

All of these things in my mind, prove that Jack Bauer is a far more superior character to Jason bourne.
I now yield my time to my opponent, Thankyou :)

Alternative sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org......
http://en.wikipedia.org......
Cliff.Stamp

Con

Pro has opened with a strong round in support of Jack Bauer, and now I will show why though it is a solid opening, it is of course deeply flawed and that not only is Jason Bourne superior it is not even a contest. This is Godsands vs popculturepooka on the Argument from Evil.

To open, let us consider Jack Bauer, and focus on his character and abilities as described in episode one and two of season one. In episode one [1]:

-When Jack is assigned to head the task force to stop the threat of assassination he refuses it, tells Walsh to find someone else. It is too difficult for him, no one will trust him as he is a narc/rat. A superior individual does not shy away from an assignment simply because it is difficult. A superior individual seeks out challenges, they strive for them.

-When Jack attempts to subdue Mason, yes he is trying to do so without harm, but still, he does so in a way which indicates that if Betty White was to bust in with a football tackle then it is up in the air if he would be able to defend. In no way would anyone look at that display of combat and exclaim now that right there is superior combat ability.

-As a father, he is easily manipulated by both his wife and his child. He shows little to no understanding of social pressure, and even the most basic leverage succeeds against him. His wife trivially being about to turn him around after the conversation with his daughter, he does not even seem that he has a mind of his own and he basically just falls to her will just as soon as she noted (quite obviously) that her daughter is manipulating him. In no way would anyone look at that and note, now that is a superior husband/father.

In episode two [2] :

-He has next to no tactical awareness. When he goes to rescue Walsh, even though he is told there are two shooters he enters the roof blind, if Walsh was one of the shooters he would be dead as as Jack has left his six fully exposed.

-Again, after the two shooters have been killed (which if not for Walsh, Bauer would again have been killed by the second shooter), Jack leaves the building AGAIN leaving his six exposed and gets Walsh killed. He never considered the blindingly obvious and even basic tactical fundamental to always have a secondary line.

-When talking to his wife, who is obviously more and more upset, he ignores it. He makes a couple of off hand remarks, showing no EQ at all, he has his problems and right now her issues (and his daughter's) do not exist. And again, he never even thinks to consider that they may be related - again, no tactical awareness.

Now let us consider Jason Bourne in similar situations. First from the first movie, the Bourne Identity [3]

-Fresh off the boat, still struggling to find his identity he is approached by two men, they are combat trained (police), they have their weapons drawn, Jason is unarmed and when he is threatened he incapacitates them faster than askbob can spot a multi- account.

-Similar in the conflict at the Bank, he again takes out multiple armed and trained individuals so fast that there is barely time enough to note the body double. Compare this to Jack Bauer who in his attempt to subdue Mason appears to have only slightly more combat ability than Steve Urkyl. Bourne displaces a constant level of combat ability which leads any sane person to conclude that it would take The Batman himself to have any chance of taking him down.

-Probably the most clear and poingant description of Bourne's ability for violence comes from an interview with Bryan Mills who was on the set of Taken as a technical co-ordinator noted when he was being compared to Bourne "What, no way man. Yeah I can handle myself but Bourne, that is game over right there. Go up against Bourne - are you blind man, did you not see that scene where he mutilates a guy with a bic pen? GG man, GG."[4]

-Alone, with no memory, no friends, no family, nothing, alone against the world Bourne is attacked in a hotel. He is almost killed, he realizes that there is a threat against his life, that he was to be killed that it was unsuccessful and it is still active and does it break him, no, does it even seem to bother him, no. He is focused, he has a problem and he solves it, no team, no support, no nothing. It is Bourne against the world and he does not hesitate, he acts. "They know who I am. I have to stay here, I have to figure it out".

-The greatest acclaim that can be given to an individual was given to Bourne when the great one himself noted on the set of "They Live"[5], yeah I know it is a famous line, they ask me all the time where it came from, they think I wrote it, but no man, that was all Bourne. I hear him say it one time "I am here to kick a$$ and chew bubble gum, and I am all out of bubble gum!", that is genius right there, I have to put it in a film. I knew they were making his movie so I asked him to make sure that was left out, as it was kind of like his signature line, and he said no problem, Roddy if you want it then it is yours. It was like that with Bourne, if you asked him for anything he would give it to you, and then he chopped me in the throat, it was like that with Bourne too. I used to think he was bi-polar and I even asked him that one time and he said "No man, I am bi-winning, I win here and I win over there. I do 7 gram rocks as that is just how I roll, I have one speed man - go!"

[1] http://www.imdb.com...
[2] http://www.imdb.com...
[3] http://www.imdb.com...
[4] http://www.imdb.com...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
TUF

Pro

I would like to start the round out by thanking my opponent for not forfeiting, as is what happened when I first posted my debate. I look forward to some interesting clash.

First off, (with respect to a great response) my opponent has dropped all of the arguments I have made in my proponent, so I would like to extend those arguments now.

To begin, I will adress the arguments made by Cliff.

"Jack's misson refusal" Argument.

We must remember, that at this point in the episode, Jacks daughter has already run away. As a parent, it is understandable to be concerned for a daughter if she is in potential danger, even if that means denying a dangerous mission. Also however, while Jacks first response was "no" to the proposal, he did in fact end up taking the mission, and succeeding in the mission by the end of the season, so given this, the argument falls.

"Jack's Combat ability." Argument.

The attack on Mason, wasn't an attack that should example combative experience however. The attack on Mason was to subdue a man who was withholding information that was a priority to Jack's mission. Obviously Mason was no field agent, but jack knew that the action was nessicary. We have plenty of other examples to prove jacks superior combat ability. For example Jack Bauer is injured near the end of season two, yet proceed to climb up a nine foot wall and subdue an enemy. Or when Bauer thought his daughter was killed by Victor Dresen, Jack personally goes in alone, without back-up, and kills 6 Men, including Dresen, without getting a single scratch.

"Un-superior father" Argument.

Jack Bauer isa man of absolute expertise. He in no way handles his family experiences wrong given his situation. From the second his daughter is kid-napped, Jack had the CTU, and himself tracking her down along with his wife, all the same time accomplishing his mission. The fact that Jack's family was targeted can in no way effect Jack's "superiority" as a father, seeing as they were part of a terrorist plot. Also I could use the same argument, saying that Jason Bourne is a bad Boyfriend, seeing as he got his girlfriend killed in the Bourne supremacy.Also later, you say that he ignores his wife and daughters claims to the terrorist link.This however, obviouslyis untrue. Jack goes to every measure possible to protect his wife and daughter, even as far as almost assasinating a presidentalcandidate (David Palmer), and killing a fellow CTU agent (Nina Meyers). Jack goes to every extreme measure there is to complete his objective and protect his family.

"Tactical awareness" Argument.

For ths argument you use the example of him going to the roof uncarefully. We can say that he has no tactical awareness, but really, on what front doesn't he have it on? Walsh was armed supplied by jack, and both almost got out alive. Walsh was eliminated because of his tactical un-awareness, but obviously Jack got out alive, and with decent information from Walsh about the traitor inside CTU. Jack had no problem eliminating the enemies in the building, and escaping just as easily. So really what grounds would this argument claim to his lack of awareness?

"Bourne is a better comabatant" Argument.

Yes, Jason Bourne succesfully disarms, two officers of the law, for trying to detain him for sleeping on a public bench.
So what this establishes, is that while Jack Bauer is off trying to prevent terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, and protect american citizens in general to serve the law, Jason bourne is out attacking officers of the law and committing crimes. And this somehow makes Bourne superior? Again, we must remember that Jack bauer is constantly on the moving and constantly taking on enemies. If you were to count the number of enemies he defeats in each season, which takes place all in a day each, you would be baffled. Compare this to Jason's fight against only a few men at a time, and spaced between a few days each. Jack Bauer is obviously the superior one in this case.

"Bourne's lack of support" Argument.

We need to remember that Jason Bourne is potentially a bad guy, which is why he has no support. In fact this argument just goes in my favor. If Jack has more support, he has better chance of succeeding in superiority. Jason made choices to get him lack of support, and this in no way makes him more superior.

"Random Quote on the set of 'we live' " Argument.

I'm not going to lie, I really missed the point of this argument, and how it shows Jason Bourne is more superior to Jack Bauer. Kiefer Sutherland, I'm sure had plenty of awesome quotes as well, how ever, that is irrelevant to his characters superiority.



New Extension Arguments For Bauer.

1. Jack is pretty dang old, yet still accomplishes amazing feats.

From seasons 1-9, a total of 13 years pass, leaving Jack Bauer in his late fourties before he is done with his long hectic life and adventure. A man with this crazy of life,
fighting as much as he does, is pretty amazing to still be kicking it out this late in his life.
http://www.highdefdigest.com...


2. Jason Bourne has a harder time taking down the "Big Boys."

Several times during the Bourne trilogy, Jason is confronted with mercenaries, who attempt to kill him (spefically, in the first and third movie). Jason Has a hard time taking them down, and actually takes quite a while, coming dangerously close to death a few times in each cases. Merely luck has prevented Jason from a few of those shortcomings. Unlike Bauer, who has expert training in combat from multiple agencies, and defeats his adversaries in a timely manner.

http://bourne.wikia.com...


3. Jack Bauer can do practically anything.

This guy is like an army swiss knife, with every available function. He's is asked on the spot to do a great many of things, and does it effortlessly. Like in season two when he offers to fly a plane with a bomb into the mohabi desert. This guy instantly hops in the plane and flies it there no problem before mason takes over.
Also Later owards the end of the season, Jack is tortured horribly, and never once reveals any information, even to the point where he dies(before being revived), and then escaping.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

To Conclude, I would like to say that I have offered a great many arguments proving Jack Is superior to Jason.

I have proven:

1. He's a better Combatant,
2. He's a better tactician,
3. People like Bauer better still.
4. He's a better strategist,
5. He's more experienced,
6. Jack eliminates foes with ease,
and
7. Jack can do almost any task given to him on the spot.

Please note, that all arguments brought up in round 2 were un-refuted, thus we must extend them.

Please Vote Pro!

Good luck to my opponent.

Cliff.Stamp

Con

"... my opponent has dropped all of the arguments I have made in my proponent"

Hardly, the opening was constructive only to balance the constructive opening of Pro.

"As a parent, it is understandable to be concerned for a daughter if she is in potential danger, even if that means denying a dangerous mission."

His daughter did not "run away" she snuck out, and which part of over reacting to his daughter leaving the house or refusing a mission indicates he is a superior agent/father exactly?

"Obviously Mason was no field agent, but jack knew that the action was nessicary."

Not only is it not necessary, however it is another example of behavior which is almost idiotic in terms of tactical operation. Consider :

-The drug in the Tranquilizer could cause a reaction with Mason if he is allergic.

-Even if Mason is not allergic, he could be on a medication that day which could cause a reaction/death.

-Tranquilizers are dose specific, there is no indication that Bauer calculated the dose required for Mason, this could have lead to the dose being in effective or Mason being killed

-Tranquilizer guns are hardly 100%, if he was in fact a superior combat/tactical agent he could have subdued him physically with little effort

and again, no one watching that would think he was superior in regards to tactical positioning or direct combat ability. This is not a video game where every now and again Bauer demonstrates a finishing move, if he is a superior combat tactician it would be exhibited in all such interactions, such as by Bourne, not simply on occasion.

"He in no way handles his family experiences wrong given his situation."

The argument was not that his family was a target, it was how he was easily manipulated by his daughter and wife showing that he had both no EQ, little to no understanding of social dynamics, and apparently no experience/memory of talking to his daughter/wife as both of them were obviously repeating past behavior of which he was completely oblivious.

Watching that conversation after the end of the Chess Game was like watching JustCallMeTarzan arguing with GodSands about Evolution, there is a strange mix of pity and incredulence at GodSands/Bauer. Not to mention of course his marriage FAILED and they separated and his daughter tells people he is dead - again how is that a superior husband/father?

"So really what grounds would this argument claim to his lack of awareness?"

Again, to repeat the argument - he left his six open, he was completely oblivious to the possibility of a second line of threat. These concepts are so fundamental, so basic that even kids playing paintball will discuss them. Thus Bauer does not have the level of tactical awareness of an average paintballer[1].

The fact that he Bond-Fluked into getting out alive while getting his boss killed again in no way would lead anyone to say he was superior as an agent, superior as a tactical operative, superior at protecting someone in his care, or superior in assessing threats. The level of incompetence he displayed here would lead him to be superior only to maybe Inspector Clouseau in somehow being able to survive while wandering in oblivion.

"And this somehow makes Bourne superior?"

It shows his level of combat ability. Now if you want to talk about morality/crime, Bourne, even though he could easily kill/incapacitate Marie chooses instead to pay her because while his training provides a level of reactionary ability, his conscious morality makes him protective of her even though she is a complete unknown.

"If you were to count the number of enemies he defeats in each season, which takes place all in a day each, you would be baffled."

If we would argue on quantity alone then George Dillman would be the greatest martial artist of all time as he constantly renders scores of people unconscious on a daily basis[2]. Of course the relevant point is that this only happens when they actually play along and don't "flip their toes up and down". Quality counts.

"Jason made choices to get him lack of support, and this in no way makes him more superior."

The fact that he can succeed with out the extensive support indicates superior ability, the fact that he can withstand as noted the crushing pressure of threats on his life with no memory of who he was and does not even show frustration/pity but just resolve indicates a level of mental strength which dwarfs Bauer, who when he was breaking down with his wife letting her know their daughter was kidnapped, not only was he not focused on calming his wife, he was actually engaging in a self-pity argument about how it was all his fault. Again, no where does that indicate superior behavior of any type from Bauer.

"... that is irrelevant to his characters superiority."

Peer review is a credible source. As an additional reference, when asked for comment, Jack Burton noted :

"Bourne, yeah, let me tell you about Bourne. We were in Quigley's not five minutes when some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs his neck, taps the back of his favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks him crooked in the eye and he asks have ya paid your dues. Bourne just stares that big sucker right back in the eye, "Have ya paid your dues? Yessir, the check is in the mail". Bourne is like ice man, nothing phases him."

"... coming dangerously close to death a few times in each cases."

Bourne has to at times fight people who are highly trained and he is under the severe disadvantage of being the target (and again when he has no memory and has no idea what is happening). If he could trivially eliminate agents such as the one he incapicated with a pen in the first movie it would be nothing but Spider-Man vs Firelord round deux.

The obvious point is to look at those exchanges and note the level of skill, strength, creativity, focus and resolve and compare that to the meanderings of Bauer who would have been destroyed in any of the exchanges faster than BOxxy could resume control of /b/.

"Jack is tortured horribly, and never once reveals any information, even to the point where he dies(before being revived), and then escaping."

And you see in the Bourne movies where Bourne shows less physical and mental resolve?

"1. He's a better Combatant,
2. He's a better tactician,
3. People like Bauer better still.
4. He's a better strategist,
5. He's more experienced,
6. Jack eliminates foes with ease,
7. Jack can do almost any task given to him on the spot."

None of these were argued successfully, in fact in regards to #1, #2 and #3 and #6 Bauer indicates as noted incompetence, not superiority. He may be more popular, that is however a horrible metric for being superior in any kind of general sense, especially for a field agent.

"Who should we pick for the operation Firestorm Bill? What about Harve?"

"Harve is good, no doubt about that, his tactical ability is second to none, but no one here really likes him and quite frankly I think he is a bit of a nob. What about Sally, everyone likes her and she always has a full turn out at her parties?"

Insensible to use popularity as a measure of superior in this context. In regards to experience and flexibility, nothing has been argued to show these are superior in terms of effect, just asserted.

To extend, Bourne shows superior :

-Combat ability.

-Tactical awareness.

-A constant level of emotional resolve and strength of character which is nothing short of inspirational and is able to function under high stress/threat completely isolated and alone.

-Tactical improvision/assessment..

-Consistent peer praise.

While Bauer shows :

-Sad combat ability

-No tactical awareness

-Poor husband/father

[1] http://www.facebook.com...
[2]
Debate Round No. 3
TUF

Pro

Dropped arguments.

I'm pretty sure setting another constructive, without arguments on an aff, doesn't count for fair exchange for arguments. Given that, arguments are still extended


Given that the structure of this debate is now pretty hazy, I will go by my opponents structure of quoting.

"-The drug in the Tranquilizer could cause a reaction with Mason if he is allergic."

Jack's worked with mason for over five years now at this point, as is told in episode 19. I'm pretty sure he would know if Mason was suffering from any allergic reactions.

"-Even if Mason is not allergic, he could be on a medication that day which could cause a reaction/death."

Except for the show never showed that he is taking any sort of medication. Argument is mute. Jason bourne had his girlfriend killed, that's a pretty great tactician there!

"-Tranquilizers are dose specific, there is no indication that Bauer calculated the dose required for Mason, this could have lead to the dose being in effective or Mason being killed"

Come on, this is a federal agent were talking about. He has had training in practically everything imaginable. I'm pretty sure he knew the correct dose amount. Even if he didn't, obviously mason didn't die, and if he did, it would have been to help jack in his mission.

"-Tranquilizer guns are hardly 100%, if he was in fact a superior combat/tactical agent he could have subdued him physically with little effort."

A tranquilizer gun does use little effort :) I suppose your proposing that bourne doesn't use guns either?


Jack gets easily manipulated by family.

The great thing about jack Bauer is that he is able to manage both his family and his job, as struggling as it my be. He is always able to save his family, and complete his job. However, putting this argument into perspective, we really can see how irrelevant it really is.
Jason Bourne, doesn't even have a family!
And given the circumstances of Jack's quite crazy life, how can you really blame him for not having a perfect life? Every family has issues. But Jack shows his dying love for them regardless of the minor character flaws. Each season, he does everything humanly possible to ensure his family's safety.
Where as Bourne doesn't have a family to look out for and still has a hard enough time managing everything.

"he left his six open'

Bauer did everything he could to make sure he got out alive, and succeeded in doing so. His job was not to protect his boss, his job was to get the proper information that he did in fact get. His boss's death was only a tactical awareness flaw on his boss's account.

"It shows his level of combat ability. Now if you want to talk about morality/crime, Bourne, even though he could easily kill/incapacitate Marie chooses instead to pay her because while his training provides a level of reactionary ability, his conscious morality makes him protective of her even though she is a complete unknown."

This Quote alone proves Bourne is inferior. He trusts somebody to help him that he
hardly even knows! Given Bourne's predicament, he should be trusting absolutely no one. The fact that he endangers those he does trust, also, just proves how is 'morality' goes against his tactical awareness.

"Quality counts"

Not only does Bauer eliminate foes quickly and effectively, he does it in numerous amounts. This proves his overwhelming experience.

"The fact that he can succeed with out the extensive support indicates superior ability, the fact that he can withstand as noted the crushing pressure of threats on his life with no memory of who he was and does not even show frustration/pity but just resolve indicates a level of mental strength which dwarfs Bauer, who when he was breaking down with his wife letting her know their daughter was kidnapped, not only was he not focused on calming his wife, he was actually engaging in a self-pity argument about how it was all his fault. Again, no where does that indicate superior behavior of any type from Bauer."

Jason Bourne has a similar experience after the death of his girlfriend. Yet both continuously pursue their objectives nonetheless. This argument hopelessly falls.

"Peer review"

Peer review falls vastly in superiority, to critic review, seeing as it is REAL. And Bauer holds it, as it yet to be argued against by my opponent.

"The obvious point is to look at those exchanges and note the level of skill, strength, creativity, focus and resolve and compare that to the meanderings of Bauer who would have been destroyed in any of the exchanges faster than BOxxy could resume control of /b/."

And, pray, what is a feasible example to allude to this? If anyone aquanders superiority in this area, it would be Bourne, where he cannot detain two assassins quickly enough, where as bourne can subdue a man in way under a minute.

"And you see in the Bourne movies where Bourne shows less physical and mental resolve?"

When was Bourne tortured to reveal this mental strength?
We have no evidence that given these circumstances he would be able to retain sufficient information.


Popularity argument.

Critic popularity is actually a very 'proving' thing. If Bauer is so popular, obviously he must succeed more in a way Bourne does not. This is the very essence of the word superior, is it not?

To conclude, I would like to ask the viewer to vote AFF, as I have successfully proven that in all aspects of the game, Bauer over rules Bourne. Please note all dropped arguments, including Jason's lack of ability to quickly detain two assassins.
Thankyou.
Cliff.Stamp

Con

"Except for the show never showed that he is taking any sort of medication. Argument is mute."

It would be moot, not mute - and the point stands, Bauer never even considers this, people do take medication, they do get sick. Bauer is again tactically ignorant and acts as if he lives in a world of rainbows and fairies where none of this matters. And again, if his combat ability was even competent, let alone superior, he could have not had to resort to a potential for lethality when if Mason was killed it could end the success of the mission before it started - and besides that, what effect would that have on his wife and daughter if he was convicted of murdering a fellow agent.

"Jason bourne had his girlfriend killed, that's a pretty great tactician there!"

Seriously? Bauer's wife ring a bell, raped and killed - his daughter constantly kidnapped, almost raped a half a dozen times, etc. .

"I'm pretty sure he knew the correct dose amount. Even if he didn't, obviously mason didn't die, and if he did, it would have been to help jack in his mission."

The does amount is based on body type and metabolism, does he calculate it - no. If he did die how would that actually help, did you watch season one and two, Mason is integral to the development and resolution of both situations. Especially in season two where without Mason flying the plane Jack would have been dead. Plus ignoring all of this, Jack would be killing an innocent man, leaving the CTU with a loss of a resource because he has does not have the combat ability to subdue him.

"The great thing about jack Bauer is that he is able to manage both his family and his job, as struggling as it my be. He is always able to save his family, and complete his job."

Yes, he is definitely superior at this integration. His wife leaves him, he has an affair with another woman (who turns out to be a counter agent), he has his wife killed (by the woman he had an affair with - excellent judge of character), and his daughter is estranged from him for almost two years as she can not stand to look at him. This exposes her to threat of violent abuse, kidnap and possible sex-slave raping by a paranoid-hillbilly, and under constant treat of death from a gun toting madman in a mexican-stand off (season two) etc. . Yes, he deserves an award for superior parenting/husband.

"Bauer did everything he could to make sure he got out alive, and succeeded in doing so."

Yes as noted, by invoking the luck-of-bond. The point was that he is completely ignorant of even the most basic principles of tactical awareness, he leaves his blind spot open constantly, in most cases he never even checks it, he ignores second wave/back for hostiles, etc. . As noted, even a kid starting paintball is aware of these principles, they are b-a-s-i-c. If Jack did receive "extensive combat training" he either has suffered massive head trauma, or is was all delusion and in reality he was just with FPS Doug for all those years [1]

"He trusts somebody to help him that he hardly even knows!"

At that time Bourne has no conscious training, due to his memory loss his training only comes back in instinct. At that point he knows he has to get out of there and he should just take the car, but his morality will not let him harm an innocent woman to save himself - that is superior character/morality.

If you want to talk about trust/character judgment, seriously - does it not stand out as a huge issues that Bauer trusts and has an affair with the woman who is a counter agent and ends up killing his wife? Superior judgment there obviously. Again, no tactical awareness and never considers she could be the mole, and never sets any counter intel to reveal it, this again is basic, very basic.

"Not only does Bauer eliminate foes quickly and effectively, he does it in numerous amounts. This proves his overwhelming experience."

It proves he can pwns newbs. Again, he never faces anyone with the level of skill and experience that Bourne has to face, nor does he face them how Bourne does, with no memory, no support, he just basically awakes in a world trying to kill him where everyone knows what is happening besides him - and still he survives. That defines superior conflict resolution.

"Jason Bourne has a similar experience after the death of his girlfriend."

Really? After Jack discovers his daughter is dead, he throws the mission objective out the window, he again leaves all of his tactical training behind him and he rushes headlong after the Drazen's (climax of season one) - which is exactly as they wanted, again showing how he is so trivially manipulated. Not only by his daughter, and wife, and Nina, but even the actual people he is trying to bring in.

"Peer review falls vastly in superiority, to critic review ..."

You need to actually provide warrant for these claims.

Peer review is the standard for scientific development, the reason why science uses peer review is because peers are competent to be able to judge the quality of work - what is superior, just like peers are able to judge Bourne vs Bauer. The fact that some middle-age housewife feels Bauer is superior can in no way be used to advocate anything except that maybe Bauer is superior at exciting middle age housewives. Just consider this, if you needed an agent to succeed, would you ask other agents, operatives, etc. or would you ask an arm chair commando - even you know that your argument holds no substance.

"If anyone aquanders superiority in this area, it would be Bourne, where he cannot detain two assassins quickly enough, where as bourne can subdue a man in way under a minute."

Yes, except for all the ones that Bauer does not and again the level of threat is not even close. I can for example easily subdue a class of kindergarden students, my brother would have difficulty subduing his fellow SD instructor quickly who has an extensive knowledge of CQC, bare handed and armed. Thus by your argument I am superior as a combat agent to my brother.

In short :
-Bauer again and again shows complete ignorance of tactical awareness
-Bauer is easily manipulated by family, friends and even the "bad guys"
-Bauer gets his wife raped and killed, his daughter is constantly in danger, etc.
-Bauer shows little to low combat ability (aside from the constant pimp-two-guns shooting)
-Bauer attempts suicide (ref. Mason in the plane in season two), refuses missions, etc. - he avoids/fears conflict

Bourne
-Shows a level of tactical awareness which makes him an almost Nate Grey level precog
-Has a level of combat ability that would make even the Undertaker (with Paul Bearer and Urn) fear a Wrestlemania bout
-Exhibits a level of mental resolve and pure strength of will that is nothing short of superhuman
-Is constantly praised (and feared) by his peers

The arguments for Bauer (he is old and feeble and still he gets the job done, people who know nothing about anything think he is superior, etc. ) are as weak as the technical advisers for 24.

To end, some of the key facts about Bourne which settle this confrontation :

------

Ordinary people have panic attacks. Chuck Norris has Jason Bourne attacks!

Jason Bourne doesn't need to search the internet, he just stares a computer down until it gives him the information he needs.

Jason Bourne once won a game of Connect 4 in 3 moves.

Jason Bourne sleeps with a night light because the dark is afraid of Jason Bourne

Vin Diesel can be rearranged to say "I end lives." Jason Bourne can be rearranged to say "Jason Bourne" which means the same thing.

----

[1]
Debate Round No. 4
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
Jason Bourne + Jack Bauer < Chuck Norris.

Nuff said
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Jason Bourne is one of the very few people who every has been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like.

He is in fact the reason that the sun sets each day because even the sun can only withstand his penetrating glare for so long before it has to retreat.

He is very upset that he is losing this debate to the much inferior Jack Bauer and has threatened on many occasions to set off a round of throat chops.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
You must be a fan of this Bourne. Wow. How is bourne like?
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
We are all Bourne. When you are faced with immediate danger, when you feel that rush spreading through your blood, that is Bourne. When you are affronted with something that reviles your senses, that which causes your rage to surface, that is Bourne. When you need to succeed, when it is the fourth quarter, when there is 2 seconds on the clock, when everything comes down to you and you ability to make the shot - than is Bourne.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
I don't understand your comment, Cliff?
But I ask, WHO IS BOURNE?
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Who is Jason Bourne?! Man a question like that is definitely going to risk a chop to the throat. I'll make sure to try to calm him down before he gets this on his twitter update.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
who's bourne?
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
"Counter votebomb eib10202"

Totally not called for to disrespect some who knows the power of Bourne.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
The opening was purely constructive as noted for balance, the counter came in R3.

"BOURNE IS BA"

I agree, no chop for you.
Posted by TUF 5 years ago
TUF
You made your own arguments for those things but left Pretty much everything else in R1 empty. You still did a good debate and all though.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by BlackVoid 5 years ago
BlackVoid
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Counter votebomb eib10202
Vote Placed by eib10202 5 years ago
eib10202
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision: BOURNE IS BA
Vote Placed by Koopin 5 years ago
Koopin
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision:
Vote Placed by socialpinko 5 years ago
socialpinko
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro had better and more reliable sources.
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 5 years ago
Chrysippus
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Close debate; I think Con won this one. Better arguments, made Bauer sound fairly incompetent. I'm sure that's not the case, but was convincing for this debate.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
TUFCliff.StampTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Debate is way too long to read about a topic of no interest to me.