The Instigator
rahuljain
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Microsuck
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

Jainism is the oldest living religion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Microsuck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/24/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,625 times Debate No: 26535
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (5)

 

rahuljain

Pro

Jainism have its roots in the Indus Valley Civilization and are the last direct representative of Shramana movement. It follows the teaching of 24 Tithankaras . The last Tirthankar, Lord Mahavira, is dated by historians to 599 - 527 BCE.
The 23rd Tirthankar, Lord Parshvanath, can also be reliably dated by the historians to 877 - 777 BCE.

No living religion can be reliably dated to exist before Jainism, hence it can be termed as the oldest living religion.
Microsuck

Con

Hinduism has been dated back to 2000 BCE http://www.religionfacts.com... so it is the oldest religion.
Debate Round No. 1
rahuljain

Pro

From the refrence provided :
"Although today's Hinduism differs significantly from earlier forms of Indian religion, Hinduism's roots date back as far as 2000 BC"
The roots of hinduism, which can be termed as 'vedic religion', can be dated back to 2000 BC. The current 'hinduism' is significantly different from that historical vedic religion.
The roots of Jainism is the shraman tradition, which was a non-vedic movement parallel to vedic religion. If we are going to consider the roots of a religion, rather than its present form, the religion of vedic-religion should be compared with Shramana tradition, both of which can be dated to Indus valley civilization of India.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana
Microsuck

Con

Still older than Jainism.
Debate Round No. 2
rahuljain

Pro

If one is considering the historical vedic tradition, the non-vedic shramanism existed parallel to it. Hence, the historical vedic tradition cannot be said to be older than shramanism.
Ancient texts also refer to Jainism as shramana dharma (self-reliant) or the "path of the nirganthas" (those without attachments or aversions).
The 23rd Tirthankar Lord Parshvanath, can be reliably dated by historians to 877 " 777 BCE. The first 22 Tirthankars lived even prior to this date.
Jainism has its roots in shramana tradition which is as old as vedic tradition, and its current form can be reliably said to be organized from 9th - 8th century B.C.E, i.e. from the time of Lord Parshvanath, since other Tirthankaras cannot be dated by historians.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Microsuck

Con

Judaism has also been dated long before the founding of Jainism:

Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin, was made king (in c. 1020 BCE) after defeating the Ammonites. He ruled from his hometown of Gibeah, a few miles north of Jerusalem. Saul's reign was marred by conflicts with the prophet Samuel, who held ongoing authority over the kingship. King David, Saul's successor, solved these problems by combining religious and political authority in one person (David and his descendents) and in one place (the city of Jerusalem).

http://www.religionfacts.com...

Keep in mind that 1020 BCE was before any of the dates you mentioned.

1. There are religions older than Jainism;
2. Therefore, Jainism is not the oldest religion.
Debate Round No. 3
rahuljain

Pro

The Indus Valley Civilization was a Bronze Age civilization (3300 - 1300 BCE; mature period 2600 - 1900 BCE).
"Not only the seated deities on some of the Indus seals are in Yoga posture and bear witness to the prevalence of Yoga in the Indus Valley Civilisation in that remote age, the standing deities on the seals also show Kayotsarga (a standing or sitting posture of meditation) position. The Kayotsarga posture is peculiarly Jain. It is a posture not of sitting but of standing. In the Adi Purana Book XV III, the Kayotsarga posture is described in connection with the penance of Rsabha."
The Rsabha was the first Tirthankar of Jainism, and was worshipped in the Indus Valley Civilization which dates to remote 2000 B.C.E.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Hinduism cannot be said to be older than Jainism, because both of them existed side-by-side in ancient India.
Judaism came a lot after both of these religions.
Microsuck

Con

Doesn't refute the fact Judaism too is older
Debate Round No. 4
rahuljain

Pro

I have demonstrated why Hinduism and Judaism cannot be said to be older than Jainism.
This would hence conclude that Jainism is the oldest living religion.

"Jainism can be said to be founded by Lord Rishabhdeva, who was the first Tirthankara. Based on archeological and literary evidence. Some modern scholars puts the date of Rishabha at the end of the Stone Age and the beginning of the Agriculture age. Contemporary historians like Ramaprasad Chanda, Vilas Sangave, Heinrich Zimmer, John Marshall, Thomas McEvilley P.R. Deshmukh and Mircea Eliade are of the opinion that there exists links between Rishabha and Indus valley civilization."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishabha_(Jain_tirthankar)
Microsuck

Con

You have not demonstrated why Judaism is not older. "Judaism came a lot after both of these religions." This is a bare assertion.

I have shown reliable dating to be before 1500 BCE -- which is before any of the Jainism dates you mentioned.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by AK80 1 year ago
AK80
Dharma was first started by Rishabdev. During his period no one knew about what dharma,god etc and people also did not know about farming.
Rishabdev has two children Bharat elder son and younger bahubali.
Rishab was the first to get moksha. Bharat is one of the name of your country. He was a king.

Vedas was not even present during that time. When Veda was formed the jainism was already established as complete religion which taugth death birth karma moksha.

Mahaveer is 24 th teerthankar of the Jains not the founder.
Majority of the kings before 7th Century in India were Jains. After 7th century due to moghuls and Shankaracharya, ramanuja charya (dwaita and Adwaita) Philosophy People converted to hinduism and Islam due to various reasons.
Jains were the majority before 7th Century.Names of Kings for example Ashoka the great, Hoysala dynasty, Rastrakuta dynastry, Mauryan empire etc.
Neminath is the brother of Krishna. Neminath defeated Krishna several times. Krishna is the avatar of Vishnu. And Rama is the cousin of Suprashvanath teerthankar.
In Veda its defined that Rishab as the Avatar of Shiva.But he is the first teerthankar of Jains.

Goddess Padmavathi was created by Prashvanth Theerthankar mantra. She is the wife of Venkateshwara of teerupathi(Balaji)
Posted by RationalMadman 4 years ago
RationalMadman
yay I would have won that bet.
Posted by rahuljain 4 years ago
rahuljain
I proved the connection of Jainism to Indus Valley Civilization, which was around 2500 - 2000 B.C.E.
This was before the date of Judaism mentioned by con.
Posted by shuffledybot 4 years ago
shuffledybot
i just like to point out that in round 4 the pro side said that Hinduism and Jainism existed side by side, that right there destroyed his whole argument. If they existed side by side, then Jainism is not the oldest religion.
Posted by Ron-Paul 4 years ago
Ron-Paul
Lol at the comment below.
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
Maybe he doesn't understand the whole 'BCE dates work backwards" thing.
Posted by Ron-Paul 4 years ago
Ron-Paul
Does pro not realize that 2000 BCE is before ALL of the dates he has mentioned? Easy win for con.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Unless Con really picks up his game, he's going to lose and badly.
Posted by RationalMadman 4 years ago
RationalMadman
I'd place my bet on Hinduism. However, cannot debate this as I'm not well educated on history of religion.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Interesting...
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by baggins 4 years ago
baggins
rahuljainMicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: As Pro proved, both Jainism and Hinduism are linked to Indus Valley civilization in India/Pakistan (2000 BC). This is older than earliest date presented by Con for Judaism (1500 BC). Should be an easy win for Pro. Surprised at all the votes for Con.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
rahuljainMicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Clear victory for con. Pro failed to uphold his BOP and counter con's judaism point.
Vote Placed by Muted 4 years ago
Muted
rahuljainMicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con refuted all Pro's arguments well
Vote Placed by Koopin 4 years ago
Koopin
rahuljainMicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con won by showing there were older religions.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
rahuljainMicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The argument on Judaism was dropped.