The Instigator
InfraRedEd
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
SaintNick
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points

January First is New Years Day

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/12/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,530 times Debate No: 7820
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

InfraRedEd

Con

A portion of January First, beginning at midnight, is still referred to as New Years Eve, not New Years Day; therefore "January First" and "New Years Day" do not refer to the same thing. If you want to meet someone on New Years Eve right after the party you do not refer to it as "tomorrow."
SaintNick

Pro

Note - 500 character limit (so small!).

As Pro, you will have the burden of proving that people refer to any time after midnight on NYE (so technically New Years Day) as NYE. The truth is that not everybody does. So this point of yours cannot hold any weight, because it can easily be highly disputed and not accepted as a true premise. I might not refer to post 12AM as "tomorrow," but it IS technically January 1st and New Years Day. Vote Pro!
Debate Round No. 1
InfraRedEd

Con

Well if you are going to make any unqualified assertion that x=y it must be true in all circumstances; therefore your assertion that you have proven it by demonstrating it is true in some circumstances may need some additional work. If January First and New Years Day are to be the same (and that's what "is" means) they must mean the same thing to all people at all times or there is some difference between the two and they are not the same. January First and New Years Day are quite different.
SaintNick

Pro

"any unqualified assertion that x=y it must be true in all circumstances"

Apply this to your own argument.

"they must mean the same thing to all people at all times or there is some difference between the two and they are not the same."

Xmas is on 12/25. Not everybody celebrates Xmas, so it may not be an important day to all people. However, there's no debating that the holiday IS celebrated on 12/25, the same way New Years Day IS on January 1st. Resolution affirmed!
Debate Round No. 2
InfraRedEd

Con

Well a substitution of the predicate "is celebrated on" for the predicate "is" clearly does not work. Independence is celebrated on July 4 but that does not mean it is July 4. Also invalid is your transposing of "If January First and New Years Day are to be the same then they must mean the same things to all people at all times" into its converse
"If January First and New Years Day are to be different then there must be some etc." They could be different in some way other than that. Out of.
SaintNick

Pro

SaintNick forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
InfraRedEd

Con

Another way they are different is that even calendars without January, such as in other cultures, still have New Years Day, but not on January 1.

Besides you would have to show that the concepts of January First and New Years Day originated at the same time. This is unlikely because the concept of year is sufficient for the concept of New Year, and the concept of January is necessary for the concept of January First. There had to be years without January before January could be invented.
SaintNick

Pro

Regardless of when it is celebrated, NYD is defined as being the 1st day of the new year. All countries with the exception of Israel follow the Gregorian calendar. According to the Gregorian calendar, the NEW YEAR begins on 1/1. Even if you argue that there are OTHER New Years Days according to other calendars, that doesn't change the fact that 1/1 is still NYD according to 1 calendar. That one calendar applies to most of the world. Also, NYD and 1/1 had to originate at the same time... :-)
Debate Round No. 4
InfraRedEd

Con

Yes but that's the English-speakng part of this planet. It's not called January in other countries so how do we know they really mean January or have they added or subtracted a few days? What exactly do you mean by "is?" There are other solar systems with years with only one day anyway or less than one, so they have New Days Year, or no New Years Day at all, or several of them, or celebrated on some other day, or without Januaries, or where January is not the first month. Need overtime. Thanx.
SaintNick

Pro

Enero primera is January 1st in Spanish - my points have nothing to do with the English speaking part of the world. I already pointed out that the ONLY country who doesn't follow the Gregorian calendar is Israel. The calendar is the same regardless of the translation. Con didn't argue this from the POV of someone NOT using the Georgian calendar, or not living on Earth as implied, so my points must apply. NYD refers to the 1st day of the new year. The 1st day of the New Year is January 1st.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by nickthengineer 7 years ago
nickthengineer
Did this remind anybody of Bill Clinton? "That depends on what your definition of is is." Lol.
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
We celebrate independence on July 4 but that does not mean that independence is July 4.
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
The best I can figure out is that you are trying to say something about the validity of the substitution of the predicate "is celebrated on" for the predicate "is." Well it isn't.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
I would have liked to argue CON's position. No fun.
Posted by 1337Hal 7 years ago
1337Hal
Damn you SaintNick! You must have clicked 'accept' just before I did. Should be an easy win for you.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by nickthengineer 7 years ago
nickthengineer
InfraRedEdSaintNickTied
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Vote Placed by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
InfraRedEdSaintNickTied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
InfraRedEdSaintNickTied
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Vote Placed by SaintNick 7 years ago
SaintNick
InfraRedEdSaintNickTied
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