The Instigator
Galiban
Pro (for)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
LearnLoveLiveLife
Con (against)
Losing
14 Points

Jesus Christ being Alive is verifiable

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Galiban
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/22/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,668 times Debate No: 6300
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (5)

 

Galiban

Pro

Assertion: Jesus Christ being Alive is verifiable.

This debate should be an interesting one depending on the con. Great Christmas time debate!

Victory Conditions:
I need to prove that there is a process by which every person can verify that Jesus Christ is alive.
The con will need to show that there is no process to verify this. (Assumption: Jesus Christ is a real person and did die.)

Needed Definition: Salvation (saved) - redemption: (theology) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil.
http://www.google.com...

The God of the Christian Bible (all bible translations agree on this) states that the process for verification of Jesus being resurrected from the dead is to call upon the name of Jesus and you would be saved.
1.You need only call upon Jesus to save you and He will do so.
2.This can be done at any point in your life but will manifest itself when you are in the chosen circumstance by God.
3.This is also attested by Christians the world over and throughout History.
4.This process is stated through communicators of and from God throughout the Bible, historical literature, and people surrounding you.
5.Each person that follows this example will come to know that Jesus Christ is alive and that he is able, as well as willing, to save you.

Verification will come when all below conditions start to be met:
1.You come to know the commandments of Jesus Christ.
2.You obey the commandments of Jesus Christ.
3.You listen (do not ignore) to the Holy Spirit that Teaches you and speaks to you.
4.Continuing to call out to Jesus in your circumstances

At this point when all stated criteria are met you will then come to know Jesus Christ and you will, not only speak to Him daily, but also hear from Him daily.

Good luck to my opponent!
LearnLoveLiveLife

Con

There is no proof that the Bible was written by God, therefore the issue of salvation is only a mater of faith.

Pro must prove that there is a process by which every person can verify that Jesus Christ is alive.

--My opponent said:
Verification will come when all below conditions start to be met:
1.You come to know the commandments of Jesus Christ.
2.You obey the commandments of Jesus Christ.
3.You listen (do not ignore) to the Holy Spirit that Teaches you and speaks to you.
4.Continuing to call out to Jesus in your circumstances

I have tried this before in life. I found no Jesus.

Saying "You didn't do it right" is not an arguement.

If over 1.1 billion of the earth's 6.6 billion people are athiest, then 23% of the earth's people also deny the existence of Jesus.

Got any pics of Jesus? Birth certificate? Wanna meet up with me for dinner and bring Jesus?

One of the most common Christian ideals is that Jesus DIED for our sins.

==Your argument could prove that it is possible to have faith in Jesus, however it in no way proves the existence of Jesus Christ.

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If a man today claimed to be the son of God and that God spoke through him, he would likely be deemed insane. Show me some moved mountains, show me someone walking on water, but faith proves nothing.

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Debate Round No. 1
Galiban

Pro

To summarize the major points of your rebuttal.
1.The Bible did not come from God.
2.You tried the verification process…it did not work.
3.Billions testify to the lack of Jesus' current existence.
4.My rebuttal cannot in any way claim "you did it wrong" otherwise I have not made an actual argument.
5.Jesus Christ DIED for our sins.
6.You desire mountains to be moved or someone walking on water. In other words you demand proof that is made evident to you.

I believe those are the rebuttals in a nutshell.
3/6 of your rebuttal involves Testimonies of others. So then I will rebut with Testimony. (The Bible did not come from God, You tried the verification process, and Billions testify to Jesus' non-existence.)
To convince you it comes down to credentials. You want me to show you the vast miracles God claims. Putting it another way, you do not believe the Bible so you demand evident manifested proof.

*Point 1* First let me relay to you the purpose of the Bible. If God was standing over you in a cloud and lightning zapped you every time you did something wrong you would inherently obey every command. Take a child. If you want the child to be perfectly obedient stand over him all day long, and hit him every time he does something wrong and his response will be only because he does not want to get hit. He will be obedient only due to force.
He does not want to deal with you in that way. The Bible is the way God wants to deal with you. When you open the Bible and read it and do it, inherently you will always be submitting yourself to Him and He is never forcing you. God does not want to force you into service. He wants someone to recognize how great He is and submit to that truth. Not submit to His overwhelming power. Isn't that how we want* to be dealt with?
The second thing in regards to the Bible is not that it is a book written by God. It is a Book of Testimonies. It is written over 4500 years, 66 books written by 40 authors. It is never handwritten from God (despite Dan Brown's straw man). People write it… about what God told them to say. It is inspired.
It is what God has communicated to those He chose to be communicators of His divine Will. You* do not have to rely solely on the book; you also have the Testimonies of those who do* trust in the book. Hence… Christian Testimonies.
But would* the Bible hold up under your scrutiny? Have you studied every credential of the Bible? I would recommend Lee Strobel. He was the Editor for the Chicago Tribune, received a Masters from Yale in Law and thoroughly (years) and objectively researched all of the points of contention.
http://en.wikipedia.org... See his Biography
His Testimony (Video 1)
(Video 2) Athiesm vs. Christianity Debate Hosted by Lee Strobel with Dr. William Lane Craig defending Christianity. This will be great research for a potential concession or rebuttal. Dr. William Lane Craig is another scholar that has studied the credentials of Christianity. This debate is 15 parts and will offer clarity on several points you may have.
Lee Strobel has studied and examined all of the evidence from both sides. As I said, it comes down to him studying the credentials of both parties involved.

*To Address point 3*(I will skip point 2 for the moment) We both have a multitude of witness' in favor of our viewpoint. However, the vast majority you are placing within the non-Jesus camp never tried the verification process. Nor would they have claimed to. It is a moot argument at that point.
If there are a significant number (clearly not the billions stated above) that have tried the verification process as described in generality, and have failed to have a confirmation, they will be addressed in point 2 & 4 together.

*Point 5* For clarity on the concept that Jesus Died. This video is fantastic.

The end will clarify the Sunday school definition of Christianities "Hope" the resurrection. This is the fundamental belief of all Christianity. Video 3

*To address point 2 and 4* They are inherently the same thing.
To define the common understanding of process. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
1. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result: the process of digestion; the process of obtaining a driver's license.
If you fail to obtain a driver's license you did not adhere to the "process". You cannot say I have no argument because you did not do it right. That is a fallacy.
Now having said that I will by no means beat you up over that. Just some clarification for the purpose of my own clear thinking.

In the verification process:
Did you come to experience yourself as a flawed individual who had no contact with the creator? When you heard that Jesus died to enable you to have that intimate connection, did you believe that He could do that? Did you respond by loving God (expressed in his absolute goodness) with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength? Did you turn and love the people around you like crazy? Did you give generously, truly generously, reflecting Gods graciousness to you… with joy? Did you try and please God like a good child tries to please his father? To then faithfully obey his commands and then taking pleasure in knowing that you are pleasing in his sight? Did you stop lusting in your heart knowing that was not what God intended for your desires? Did you cease to covet your neighbors wife, house, car, livelihood, knowing that God does and can provide good things for you? Did you forgive people when they did you wrong, in full knowledge that you were forgiven much by God? This is faith. This is obedience.
The whole Bible is summarized in two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." And "Love others as yourselves."
This is the understanding of the verification process. It takes years for most to even start to do these things, especially in America. There are those who God comes to… who express these things right away. They shed themselves quickly and wholeheartedly.
*Point 6* Again the Testimonies are what we are relying on for this debate as clarified by you. This will also address point 6.
- Pistol Pete Video 4
- Muslim Convert Video 5 & 6

- Doug Batchelor Video 7
- Stephen Baldwin Interview Video 8
- Stephen Baldwin Testimony Video 9
You will see all of them have a recurring theme. They understood and heard the testimony of others and they also heard God speaking into their lives.
You want a physical manifestation. You want to see miracles. God will do that but God does not want a 10-minute Christian. If you sincerely ask God for 10 minutes on your hands and knees in the dark…. then go watch Heroes having not received an answer in your timeframe, you are not going to get an answer. Not saying you have done this, only what I did when I was 17-23.
I never really pursued him. But when I, like that Muslim sat down and diligently searched for the God of the universe… I like these men, found him.
Basically you have to believe every Atheist or Agnostic that argues, "Because I have not seen Him you cannot either" or you have to believe every Christian that states they have seen Him and He is alive and powerful. It comes down to credentials.
What an Athiest or an agnostic argues…. "Because I have not seen him… you have not seen him."
To summarize this fallacy the cartoon on top of page two is great.
http://www.answersingenesis.org...
LearnLoveLiveLife

Con

LearnLoveLiveLife forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Galiban

Pro

I sincerely Hope you are alright. Perhaps I may pray for you :)

If you were just busy hopefully you will not post as I have no way to rebut.

On the other Hand I pray that God put you through a great circumstance in your life that will lead you to know him better. If you need me just post on the comments.
LearnLoveLiveLife

Con

LearnLoveLiveLife forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
LearnLoveLiveLife.
Did you read over my response? Your Thoughts?
Posted by InquireTruth 7 years ago
InquireTruth
Good Job Galiban. All points to you because of forfeiture.
Posted by LearnLoveLiveLife 7 years ago
LearnLoveLiveLife
I was on vacation and went from Iowa to Arkansas... forgot I wouldn't have internet.
Sorry it wasnt a very exciting debate.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
understand the standards which = right with God.
Second... it was not the criteria.
Third... if the criteria was met** the result would have been different.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
I understand the standards which = right with God.
Second... it was not the criteria.
Third... if the criteria was me the result would have been different.

Take Elijah. He was able ask God for fire from heaven to confirm that he spoke for God. It allowed for all of Israel to see and believe that he did speak for God. Even after seeing the miracle some still did not believe. Belief is irrelavent. Criteria is important.

Second if you asked God to send a meteor on someone's how to show the whole town that you spoke for God...., it would not happen. You do not speak for God.

That is not saying you cannot get to a point where you could speak for God only stating that certain people meet the set criteria. God will not lift up or vindicate a prophet who does not speak for him.

Praying for healing by young Christians is one thing. But nowhere in the criteria was it suggesting that only Christians were praying. Hence praying to Allah or a stone will not inherently lead to success.

Those are the fallacies of the logic of the studies.
Posted by jjmd280 7 years ago
jjmd280
No true Scotsman fallacy - how do you know the Christians in the study weren't "right" with God?
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
Also, Going to the NY Times and Boston Globe to define the veracity and efficacious nature of prayer is like Going to a Chicken to ask if he should be spiced with Lemon Pepper or Teryaki when you eat him and expecting

If prayer results in truth then they are condemned by everything they do NOT believe in.

Its all about credentials. At some point their lies became truth. Clearly Christian prayer has never been what they said it was.
http://www.ahjonline.com...
The American Heart Journal never looked at the requirements of God for an efficacious prayer. James 5:16.

Simply put bogus results due to lack of knowledge about what God wants.

Going to a bunch of unbelieving and unknowledgable scientists to determine the veracity and effectivness of prayer is like building your computer from the basic components and having Fonzy(from Happy days) tell you where the wires go.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
s0m31john
I have to tell you. The Milk Jug Movie is as much a straw man argument as I have ever seen.
If it were true I would be terrified. This assertion would be completely accurate if that was what prayer was. Let me explain Christianity's actual position… though I sadly realize the "studies" on prayer, done by NY Times and Boston Globe had no actual strict definitions. Just ask God to heal the person without ever committing to him. That is inaccurate. You have to commit your life to him and place your health in his hands.

Christianity does not assert that God is a Genie in a bottle you get to just ask for stuff.
Christianity asserts that God is a promise making and a promise keeping God.
Christianity also asserts that you must be a promise making and promise keeping responder.
If you are Obedient to God's wishes and remain in the Covenant you are able to ask for things. You can become rich (example: I have personally seen how God can prosper along with a multitude in the American Covenantal Nation) when you are able to handle the wealth in your spiritual life. You do not even have to ask for it, God will just give you those things. (Example: me, The Lord gives abundantly when you live His way Luke 6:38)

Definitions needed to accurately argue against the Christian Faith.
Baptism = covenant confirmation with God. (You make a promise to God to strive to live a sinless life, He is committing to cleanse you of your sins.)
Prayer = A spoken relationship with him. Not to say to God "just give me things I want".
Faith = Being faithful in Obedience to God's will. He is faithful to you and he desires you to be faithful to Him. Promise Making and Promise Keeping on both sides. Hence, a particular verse can reference God's faithfulness or your own. So much of the Bible is being faithful and Obedient to God.

The prayer of a man or woman who is right with God is effective (James 5:16), not everyone gets prayers answered.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
Ragnar Rahl.
I sense a bit of sarcasm.
Posted by Galiban 7 years ago
Galiban
Hello my Opponent! I was hoping this would be someone good! I am excited about this debate!
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by ozziegirl 7 years ago
ozziegirl
GalibanLearnLoveLiveLifeTied
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Vote Placed by Yoni 7 years ago
Yoni
GalibanLearnLoveLiveLifeTied
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Vote Placed by jjmd280 7 years ago
jjmd280
GalibanLearnLoveLiveLifeTied
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Mr.Alex
GalibanLearnLoveLiveLifeTied
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Vote Placed by InquireTruth 7 years ago
InquireTruth
GalibanLearnLoveLiveLifeTied
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