The Instigator
scorpionclone
Pro (for)
Losing
33 Points
The Contender
Mangani
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/10/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,183 times Debate No: 3978
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (56)
Votes (18)

 

scorpionclone

Pro

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. He came down from heavens glory to be a sacrifice for the sin of all mankind. He is the God Man! I will argue this position using the word of God. Anyone wishing to debate me must accept the Holy Bible as a tool for proving or disproving this fact.

It is quite clear to the open eyes of anyone wishing to see that God came down to earth in the flesh to perform the forgiveness of sin himself, since there is none worthy of this sacrifice in the whole earth. Only God himself is capable of fulfilling this requirement. Since God requires justice for the sin of mankind yet loves the whole world he himself took on the clothes of a man to provide for the eternal salvation for those who have been called to salvation.

The fact that Jesus refers to himself as the father is not for his benefit, but for the benefit of those who were with him at the time so that they may more easily grasp God's relationship to us, his children. Many have confused the purpose of this example to try and argue that Jesus was not God but only an angel or some lesser being. I refer you to Genesis 1:26 where God (talking to himself) says:

"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Mangani

Con

I will keep my introductory statement as brief as possible. Though my opponent stated the criteria was "the bible" for this debate, he didn't say I had to accept every book of the current canon as the word of God. I will debate my side from the point of view of the Jews and Judaism- which Jesus was an avid follower, scholar, and Rabbi of- , the views of Jesus Christ himself, the views of past prophets, and the views of different revered scholars, both in and out of Christian denominations. Though I know I will not convince my opponent (as he will ultimately use the excuse of "faith" to justify his argument), but I at least hope to convince the audience that I have put forth the best arguments for my position.

To prove that Jesus is God in the flesh, one must prove several factors. #1- is God divisible? #2- Does God share his Glory with different persons? #3- Does God "need" to do anything? #4- Was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the only way to satisfy God's own wrath... by killing himself??? #5- Does the Old Testament support any Jesus/God attributes? And many others. Let's stick to these for now.

I will want to see scriptural proof within the New Testament that somehow correlates without mistake (or coincidental similarity with other persons in the Old Testament) to the Old Testament prophecies. I will want to see New Testament references to Jesus being God as God the Father (Elohim) and not as gods in the Old Testament (in several sources, including Job). The burden of proof is on you to fill in the gaps between Judaism and Christianity and adequately explain why other monotheistic religions do not view Orthodox Christianity as a monotheistic religion. I would like to see a biblical connection between the current practices of the Christian community with that of the New Testament Christians, including Jesus himself.

I know I have set forth a high standard, but this is the debate you wanted. If you think you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what hundreds of Christian scholars, ministers and other clergy, historians, etc. have only been able to pass off as "faith"...
Debate Round No. 1
scorpionclone

Pro

Rebuttal 1:

In order to argue the divinity of Jesus, the bible is simply the context of the debate. You must simply accept that the bible is a valid tool to prove this truth. the fruition of prophecy in todays world simply solidifies the faith of man.

Jesus claims to be God

Jesus claimed to be God several times in the new testament and correlated this truth with scripture from the old testament, namely the burning bush and God's interaction with Moses. When Moses asked God who he should say sent him in exodus 3:13 he said:

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Now in the new testament Jesus, when debating with the Pharisees about his divinity he says in John 8:58

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds

See, here Jesus is telling them that he is God by claiming to be "I Am".

the very fact that the pharisees were trying to kill Jesus proves that they wanted him dead for blasphemy in other words for claiming to be God.

Rebuttal 2

Jesus displayed omnisience sharing this same attriubute with God.

When Jesus met Nathaniel in John 1:47 he displays his all knowing power by being able to see and hear his prayers when he was under the fig tree.

47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

Rebuttal 3

Absolutely the only way to pay for the sin of all mankind is to offer up a sacrifice worthy of God. God is all there is in the most literal sense of the word. He can do whatever he wants to do he is God. If He wants to lay down his life just to take it up again then he can do so. Which is exactly what he did in this instance.

Rebuttal 4

Jesus accepted worship from man. Now with your knowledge of old testament Torah and traditions of the Jewish people you of all people would know that only God himself is worthy to receive worship. even the ten commandments states that you have no other Gods before me. Meaning you shall not worship any other Gods but the great I AM! If Jesus wasn't God in the flesh than anyone who worships him would be cursed by the law of Moses. However, he did receive worship when doubting Thomas refused to believe that Christ had risen unless he saw the scars on Jesus wrists and side. John 20:25

25But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

The key here is that Thomas proclaimed my Lord and my God. And he gave him worship. why did he break the law of Moses and worship Jesus instead of God. He didn't Jesus is God.

Rebuttal 5
Jesus was given the name immanuel which literally means God with us, Look at Matthew 1: 22

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[d]—which means, "God with us."

Again Jesus is literally God in the flesh the God Man

Think about it
How about Isaiah 53 just for prophecy sake. Since you seem to question the validity of the bible as the context for a debate about the divinity of Christ but at least admit that there is evidence that he walked the earth, this passage predicts Christs crucifixion 700 years before it happened.

Please let me know if you want to debate this further Case closed
Mangani

Con

"In order to argue the divinity of Jesus, the bible is simply the context of the debate."
-Not true. That is like limiting a case in court to the actual case, and preventing the judge, jury, and advocates from addressing issues with precedence.

"You must simply accept that the bible is a valid tool to prove this truth."
-The individual books of the bible are not necessarily cohesive historically, and each point should be examined against others. Jesus did this... why shouldn't we???

"Jesus claims to be God"
-Let me first provide you with unrefutable texts Jesus himself adhered to denying the divisibility of God, and the worship of Jesus as God:

Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them (Exodus 20:1-5)
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve.'" (Matthew 4:10)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (Mark 12:32)
"As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)
"By myself I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear." (John 5:30)
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9)
One of those days, Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (Luke 6:12)
"If thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Mark 14:36 and Luke 22:42)
Now about the phrase "I am"...

Before and after(Exodus 3:14),God clarifies that "I AM the God of Abraham". God says the phrase "I AM God" about 200 times in the Bible while Jesus in his over 30 years on earth never said that. The High Priest Melchizedek in the Bible is Also Before Abraham and According to the Bible {Hebrews 7:1-4}; "..Had not Beginning and no End, had no parents.." Furthermore, if we look at a Bible Hebrew Dictionary , we can look up the Phrase "I AM" hayah {haw-yaw} in Hebrew and see that it Means; "was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out, to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass, etc. etc. The Phrase "I AM" hayah {haw-yaw} is Used 72 times in the Hebrew Bible by a number of Prophets including (David, Moses, etc...). The Phrase " I AM GOD "'Elohiym {el-o-heem'} is Used 200 times in the Bible, Never by any Prophets, never by Jesus.

Jesus is recorded as using the proper Hebrew and/or Aramaic words on different occasions, so there is no excuse as to why he would say "ego eimi" rather than what God used in the Old Testament "Hayah". Indeed he is quoting as using Aramaic in other instances- "Hossana" - Matthew 21:9 (b) "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani"-Matthew 27:46, "Rabbi"-John 3:2, "Talitha cumi"-Mark 5:41. For a statement as grand as "I AM", I think it would be safe to assume (especially when compared to the context of his past denials of being God) that he would use the language native to the religion, and the same terminology God himself used in the Old Testament so as to appease any doubt. Instead he says "ego eimi", which is NOT what God said. Also, this phrase only appears in John, and none of the other gospels. The phrase "I Am God" is found in nearly every book of the Old Testament multiple times- there is absolutely no mention of this "revealing" proclamation in any of the other gospels... why? In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Does that mean Peter is God also???

Jesus Omniscient:

First, omniscient means "all knowing". Did Jesus know everything? Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father." Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?" Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon." John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man." Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Furthermore, the apostles also later claimed to exhibit some of these same gifts of the Spirit as evidenced by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians.

Forgiveness of Sin:

This is a matter of faith, and not a matter of scripturally documented fact. Since my opponent provided no references and simply stated an article of his own faith, then I can only rebut with articles of faith clearly documented in the bible. Jesus himself said "not all those who call me Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Jews believe it is God's mercy that will ultimately determine our fate, and Jesus makes this clear through his parables of the Judgement, etc.

Jesus Accepted Worship:

The word used 60 times and translated as "worship" in the New Testament (KJV) is the Greek word "proskuneo". It is etymologically the root for "prostrate" which does not necessarily translate as "worship". The translator of the KJV was already a Christian, and this occurred over one thousand years after the establishment of the Nicene Creed. However, there are countless references to Jesus denying worship as God. In Acts 10:25 Cornelius prostrated before Peter. From context we can assume it was prostration in reverence to someone he had not seen in a long time, like a father, but Peter took him up and refused "worship". He did not admonish him, rather it was a gesture. "And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him." From context we can rationalize that neither man took this as "worship" as you worship God, but it was translated that way nonetheless.

The NAS version of the bible translates these same 60 instances as the following: bow down, 1; bow down before, 1; bowed down, 1; bowed down before, 2; bowing before, 1; bowing down, 1; prostrated himself before, 1; worship, 32; worshiped, 17; worshipers, 1; worshiping, 1; worships, 1. Let me now provide some New Testament text justifying these translations (as with other words like "elohim" which are translated differently due to context and precedent):

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (the Father is greater than Jesus)
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. (God is not a servant) Jesus made it clear that his Father is his Lord, his master, his God at John 20:17. Philippians 2:5-11 tells us that the Word became flesh, a servant of God.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Immanuel- God with us. Since you chose to omit the properly translate "God IS with us", I will provide some names which if translated like you did, would mean this person is also God: Elijah (proper- El is Jah or Yahweh is God), yours- God(el)God(Jah). Elishah (proper- El is Shah or God is Salvation)
Debate Round No. 2
scorpionclone

Pro

The Supremacy of Christ

Colossians 1:15

He is the the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and in Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities: all things were created by him and for him(Jesus Christ emphasis mine). He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head ofthe church he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in him and through him reconcile to himself all things

This scripture here from a book other than John since you do not accept all canon but only the parts you cherry pick from, plainly states that he has all of God's fullness in him. that he is the image of the invisible God.

Rebuttal 1

Jesus Accepted Worship:

In response to your claim that Jesus never accepted worship you are clearly mistaken, you have still not answered the question about why did Thomas say my Lord and my God. Meaning Jesus was his God. This is blasphemy if Jesus is not God. Yet Jesus didn't tell him to get up, he didin't say no,no worship God. He didn't correct him because he was right to worship Jesus as God.

Now we can confuse our audience with translations and tenses in order to try and win an argument but lets debate honestly. I can point out several instances of apostles and angels refusing worship but pointing to Christ

Acts 14: 12

Barnabus they called Zues and Paul they called Hermes because he was chief speaker. The preist of /zues, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates becasue he and the crowd wanted to sacrifice to them.

But when the apostles Barnabus and Paul heard of this, they tore thier clothes and rushed out into the crowd shouting, Men why are you doing this? We too are only men human like you. We are bringing the you the good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things.

Now why didn't Jesus have this same response to Thomas when he worshiped him?

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve.'" (Matthew 4:10)

The context of this event is Satan promising the worls to Jesus if he would bow down and worship Satan over God. Jesus was right in saying get behind me Satan.

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (Mark 12:32)

I am not arguing that Jesus and God are seperate, but in fact they are one so you are actually proving my point here refer to Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Why does he say us instead of me, or mine. He wasn't talking to the Angels because we both know that Jesus was not an angel.

Isaiah 40 3-5

A voice calling:

In the desert prepare the way for the Lord make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. Every valley shall be raised up every mountain and hill made low. the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain and the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Cross that with John 1 : 23

John replies ion the words of isaiah the prophet, ' I am the one voice of the one calling in the desert make straight the way for the Lord."

Which Lord? the only Lord. The Lord is one!

Isaiah:

42:8

I am the Lord that is my name. I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols."

If God cannot lie, then Jesus and God are one and the same or he has given his glory to another (Jesus) which is it? God is either a liar or he and Jesus are one. The Lord is one as you have already succintly discovered.

Isaiah 43: 3

For I am the Lord your God, the holy one of Israel, your Savior."

and verse 11

I even I, am the Lord and apart from me there is no other savior. Hmmm sounds pretty repetitive doesn't it ?

How about this for the wise Mangini

Phillipians 2 :6-8

Who, being in vary nature God did not consider equaility with God something to be grasped but made himself nothing taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Now even with new math in todays lesser eduacational system equal still means same as. So again Jeswus is ethier a liar or he is God.

Jesus Omniscient:

Did Jesus know everything?

Well he knew he would die when he told the pharisees to destroy his temple and after three days he would raise it up again or what about

The Woman at the Well.

John 4: 16

He told her, "Go call your husband, and come back."

"I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband what you have just said is true."

Now either Jesus either had a private investigator following this woman or he has omnisient power, a quality that God said he would not share with anyone else except perhaps himself, since the Lord is one. Like you said

John 4:29 "Come see a man who told me everything I ever did."

Forgiveness of Sin:

you said: This is a matter of faith, and not a matter of scripturally documented fact. Since my opponent provided no references and simply stated an article of his own faith, then I can only rebut with articles of faith clearly documented in the bible. Jesus himself said "not all those who call me Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Jews believe it is God's mercy that will ultimately determine our fate, and Jesus makes this clear through his parables of the Judgement, etc

You have cited no examples of this but are making false claims, I have not addressed the issue of sin because that is not what the focus of the debate is about. You are attacking the faith term to simply distract from the validity of my claims and garner support. If you want to debate the forgiveness of sin challenge me to the different debate about sin, this debate is about Jesus being God in the flesh.

Immanuel: God is with us ok it means literally the same as God with us it just depends on the version of the bible you looking at. Same thing, straw man argument.
Mangani

Con

The Supremacy of Christ

Colossians 1:15 He is the the image of the invisible God (WHY THE IMAGE IF HE IS GOD?), the firstborn (READ-PRIMOGENITURE IS A COMMON LAW STATUS WHICH GIVES HIM THE RIGHT TO INHERIT THESE THINGS AS GOD WOULD ALLOW; NOTE- YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE FIRSTBORN TO CLAIM OR BE GIVEN CLAIM TO PRIMOGENITURE; SEE: JACOB VS ESAU; ISAAC VS ISHMAEL; YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE THE FIRST BORN, RATHER THE MOST FAVORED) over all creation (TO HAVE PRIMOGENITURE OVER CREATION HE MUST ALSO BE A PART OF IT). For by him all things were created: things in heaven and in Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities: all things were created by him and for him (THIS ENTIRE STATEMENT CONTRADICTS JESUS'S OWN STATEMENTS- UNLESS PAUL IS REFERRING TO THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH HE APPARENTLY DOES NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND; IN ANY CASE, JESUS HIMSELF HAS REFUTED THIS POINT- Rev.1:1-6; Matt 7:21; Matt 10:32-33; Mark 10:17-18; Isaiah 11:1-3 {not the words of Jesus himself, but it shows how he would fear God rather than BE God}; John 14:28; John 8:28; Matthew 24:36)

-Now, my opponent claims that this verse is irrefutable proof that Jesus is God… HOWEVER there are similar verses throughout the bible attributing these same virtues, authority, and rights to others- EVEN SATAN! This can only mean that Jesus himself was not the "owner" of any authority, rather a recipient like all others before him:

-Luke 4:5-6; Luke 10:18-20; John 12:49… There are many other texts in the Old Testament attributing the primogeniture to Abraham, Isaac, and then to Jacob. Jesus was not alone in this authority, and was simply the heir, as he was the Messiah and heir to the throne of David.

Jesus Accepted Worship:

In response to your claim that Jesus never accepted worship you are clearly mistaken (YOU CAN'T JUST STATE I AM MISTAKEN GIVEN THE FACT THAT I LAID OUT AN ETYMOLOGICAL DECLARATION OF WHY I DO NOT ACCEPT THE TERM "WORSHIP" IN THE SENSE YOU "WORSHIP" GOD ALMIGHTY. MANY KINGS ACCEPTED "WORSHIP" IN SOME FORM, BUT TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS ACCEPTING WORSHIP AS GOD YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ETYMOLOGY, AS WELL AS THE CONTEXT. ETYMOLOGICALLY THE WORD CAN BE TRANSLATED AS ANYTHING FROM A SIMPLE KISS OF THE HAND, TO REVERENCE AS A GOD, BUT IN CONTEXT IT IS CLEAR THAT JESUS REFUTED ANY CLAIM THAT HE IS EQUAL TO GOD), you have still not answered the question about why did Thomas say my Lord and my God. (FIRST OF ALL, THE CONTEXT OF THIS EXPRESSION CAN BE TRANSLATED ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BELIEFS. IT CAN BE TAKEN AS AN EXCLAMATION- UNLESS OF COURSE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD ANYONE CRY OUT ‘MY GOD'… I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME… SHOULD I TAKE IT AS PEOPLE CALLING ME GOD???)

Now we can confuse our audience with translations and tenses in order to try and win an argument but lets debate honestly(THAT IS A DIRTY AD-HOMINEM ATTACK. I AM NOT TRYING TO CONFUSE, RATHER EDUCATE. UNLESS YOU ARE ASSERTING THAT ENGLISH IS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE BIBLE, THEN IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHY THINGS WERE TRANSLATED THE WAY THEY WERE. INDEED I POINTED OUT IN MY LAST ARGUMENT THAT THE KJV OF THE BIBLE WAS TRANSLATED OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AFTER CHRISTIANITY WAS ESTABLISHED AS A DOMINANT WORLD RELIGION, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AFTER THE NICENE CREED. IT IS ONLY LOGICAL THAT THE TRANSLATOR'S VERSION BE CONSISTENT WITH HIS OWN BELIEFS, BUT WE CAN LOOK AT THE WORDS AND EXAMINE THEIR ETYMOLOGY SO AS TO CLARIFY MISCONCEPTIONS, MISUNDERSTANDINGS, MISTRANSLATIONS, AND APPARENT HIPOCRICIES WITHIN THE TEXT OF THE BIBLE… UNLESS YOU DENY THERE ARE ANY…)

Now why didn't Jesus have this same response to Thomas when he worshiped him? (AGAIN, JESUS WASN'T WORSHIPPED AS A GOD).

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve.'" (Matthew 4:10) (THIS IS NOT AN ORDER FOR SATAN TO WORSHIP HIM…)

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (Mark 12:32) (RIGHT… HE DIDN'T SAY I AM GOD…)

-I didn't respond to your other comments because they are subject to your own interpretation and you are ignoring everything in my last argument.

Jesus Omniscient:

Well he knew he would die when he told the pharisees to destroy his temple and after three days he would raise it up again or what about (THIS IS CALLED PROPHECY. I HAVE NEVER DENIED JESUS WAS A PROPHET… ARE YOU CLAIMING EVERY PROPHET IS GOD???)

The Woman at the Well.
John 4: 16
AGAIN, PROPHECY

Now either Jesus either had a private investigator following this woman or he has omniscient power(SO, AGAIN, ARE ALL THE OTHER PROPHETS GOD???)

Forgiveness of Sin:

You have cited no examples of this but are making false claims, I have not addressed the issue of sin because that is not what the focus of the debate is about (INDEED IF YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD AND ENDOWED WITH THE POWER TO FORGIVE ALL SIN THROUGH HIS DEATH AS GOD THEN IT HAS VERY MUCH EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SIN). You are attacking the faith term to simply distract from the validity of my claims and garner support(I AM ATTACKING THE FAITH CLAIM BECAUSE YOU MADE NO SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE). If you want to debate the forgiveness of sin challenge me to the different debate about sin, this debate is about Jesus being God in the flesh (AND AGAIN YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF).

Immanuel: God is with us ok it means literally the same as God with us it just depends on the version of the bible you looking at. Same thing, straw man argument (YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED MY ARGUMENT. YOUR POINT IS IN SAYING THAT HIS NAME IS HIS VIRTUE- GOD IS WITH US TO YOU MEANS JESUS IS GOD. I REFUTED THAT BY SHOWING THE ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD, AND HOW LEAVING OUT A SIMPLE WORD CAN CHANGE THE INTENDED TRANSLATION AS WITH ELIJAH AND ELISHAH).

-My friend, you have argued beautifully for your beliefs, but in claiming to believe the truth through faith, through a refusal to learn you actually ignore the truth. There is a ton of scripture documenting Jesus's denial of being God, being equal to God, and his deference to the will of God. You cannot do any of these things if in fact you ARE God. You have failed to prove Jesus accepted worship as a God, other than instances in which he received some form of worship (I am not going to give you the dozens of definition of the English as well as Greek word, proskuneo) similar to that of past Prophets, Kings, and emissaries of God.

-One thing both of us have failed to point out, Jesus demonstrated no abilities superior to past prophets. Though he rose the dead, he never actually created life. Moses transformed a dead piece of wood into a living snake before it devoured two other snakes and transformed back into a piece of wood. Jesus died, and returned from the dead, but Enoch never saw death. Jesus prayed for his enemies to be removed from his mist, but Elijah destroyed his with fire from heaven. Jesus, again, raised the dead… but so did both Elijah and Elishah. Jesus' dead body never brought anyone back from the dead, but Elishah's did. Elishah also foretold the future, healed the blind, healed lepers, and fed hundreds with a few loafs of bread. Now, I am not claiming that these prophets are greater prophets than Jesus, just that his miracles were no more grand than theirs… how could this be if he is God himself???

-You are getting pretty redundant with your arguments as you have no scholastic response to my challenges, other than more texts… I have not refuted the fact that you can take any text out of context and mold it to mean anything. What is EXPLICIT in the bible is Jesus' claims that he is NOT God, NOT equal to God, and that he is SUBORDINATE to God. You are staking your faith on the implicit, and it is only implicit because of your preconceived notions of faith.
Debate Round No. 3
56 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by scorpionclone 8 years ago
scorpionclone
And the attacks continue. Listen, until you go and debate someone, you are just a spectator. Maybe then your insight might be a little more respected. Until then, lalalalalala I'm not listening to you lalalalalalalalala...... Good day Sir!
Posted by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
That's cool, thanks realistic. I just don't know about this clone dude anymore...
Posted by realistic 8 years ago
realistic
sorry mangani- but this is just too much fun to pass up. hope I have the opportunity to debate you on something soon. feel free to challenge me on anything, even though I think you are a better contender than myself I think it would make for intersting material. i'm still learning about how things work and who is worth debating with but if I come up with a topic that's worthwhile I may challenge you:) thanks again.
Posted by realistic 8 years ago
realistic
Well I hate to disappoint. So here you go. and you know what? you are so right. because as we know the comment area isn't a public forum. so I should be more willing to display my views in a manner that allows others to challenge them. hmmm. how is it you got the opportunity anyway? you must be special!

That's all you've got? Come on man, you can do better than that.

You've got yer nose so high up in the air you didn't even realize you fell on your face!

Howzat one?

Or-You so deluded, when you can't stay afloat you just celebrate anyway!

You so confused, even your pastor is blushing!

You so gulable, you even believe you own bull!

There, see! Its easy! Go ahead...give it a try!
Posted by scorpionclone 8 years ago
scorpionclone
This is the part when I respond and you attack me for responding. Like I said at least I have the courage to try and debate. You are just a Spectator
Posted by realistic 8 years ago
realistic
hahahahahaha! waitwaitwait....HAHAHAHAHAHA! no, seriously though...what's wrong with insects? how can I be better than others? I long for such information! teach me so that I may defeat others and be better than they are! I must show god that I am better than his other creations and that I have interpreted his word in ways he couldn't inspire in his people and thereby I will show him how much I should be valued over others! (hey, wait a minute.. that's what cain tried to do isn't it?)

your too much fun clone;) you should debate bush. you can can both presume to know gods will and argue about who's right!
Posted by scorpionclone 8 years ago
scorpionclone
Name calling is your way of accepting defeat. Fine with me
Posted by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
You're a liar, and rather than correcting your lie and apologizing you still seek to decieve. The truth doesn't take 4 paragraphs...
Posted by scorpionclone 8 years ago
scorpionclone
you get the point,
I'll have to let God be my judge as you said, not men. I fear no man and I will continue to be bold in my beliefs(whether right or wrong, you have failed to convince me otherwise, no offense, As i have failed to convince you). It seems that the bible has a way of cutting men to pieces, unfortunately for the both of you. But hey, we live in America, that's your right.

I do hope you will recall that I called no one names such as Liar, Deceptive etc, but simply pointed out some truths that tend to hurt. I have no ill will or anger towards either of you and realize that this is a debate site, not a popularity contest.

When people become afraid of what they are hearing they generally act as you have acted. I am not surprised by this. But I refuse to cower to people who think they are wise in the eyes of men. But have no real truth in them. You are free to think whatever you want to about me to better explain away some of the truths that I have brought to your attention.

Realisitc: By calling me an insect you have made yourself no better than anyone else. I have not called you any names, only pointed out factual evidence.You have not debated on this site? TRue or False?
If your not down fightin the fire as Mangini and myself are doing, how can you criticise my views or debate style, and not be subject to return fire?

I encourage you to get your feet wet and try debating someone on the site. That's all I'm saying. Again if this offends you I am at a loss as to why.

Mangini, again I don't harbor any ill will at all. Your a great debater, a smart guy, intelligent and quick on your feet, and I thank you for the challenging arguments you have brought up. I don't see how there can be all this negativity going back and forth, you have your beleifs and I have mine.

For me it's all in fun relax...

Nuff Said!
Posted by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
"Mangini says that Paul is crazy and wasn't a true apostle of the lord Jesus Christ"

{"Paul's new theology was not consistent with Jesus's teachings, nor those of the Jews."-Mangani}

-I said no such thing... You prefer to "spin" what I said to say what you quoted me as saying after quoting me as saying something completely (and quite obviously) distinct. You did this knowingly and with a purpose, and are therefore a liar. That's one of the lowest forms of human being which I have very little respect for, and I thank you for your participation, but I don't converse with liars.
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