The Instigator
BennyW
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
khizr
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Jesus Claimed to be God

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
BennyW
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 954 times Debate No: 61173
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (1)

 

BennyW

Pro

I have heard quite a few people argue that Jesus never claimed to be God. Maybe those exact words never came out of his mouth but I will argue that if we look at what he said his intention was clearly that he did claim to be God. I will be using the protestant cannon of the Bible, while I don't think the Catholic cannon contradicts this I am not familiar enough with it to use it. Anything outside the Bible is prohibited, so no Gnostic Gospels or outside text,we are going solely on what is credited to Jesus in the New Testament. The first round will be for acceptance only and no entirely new arguments the last round, only replying to points and clarification. Good luck.
khizr

Con

I accept your challenge and i am going argue that Jesus(may peace be upon him) did not claim to be god.

Let the debate begin.
Debate Round No. 1
BennyW

Pro

I see my opponent is a Muslim, I actually like debating this with Muslims. I thank him for accepting this debate. There are several places in the Bible where Jesus says something to indicate he is God, and you can often tell that the people he was talking to understood this by their reaction.

I will now show several verses that show this point.
Before Abraham was I am-John 8:58. [1] Here he is evoking what God called himself in Exodus.
Let's Look at another: I and the Father are one.”
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” -John 10:30-33 [2]
Why would they stone him for saying this if he didn’t mean by it that he was God? It seems pretty clear from what they said that they understood this. They accused him of blasphemy, and he never denies their claims.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”-John 8:24 [3] Who would Jesus be referring to here if not God?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”-John 20:28 [4] Thomas called him God and Jesus did not rebuke him for doing so.
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.- Matthew 11:27. [5] Here we see him claiming to be the Son a special kind of Son of God. Put it together with all the rest of the sources above his claim is becoming quite clear.
I could also point to John 1 but as that is not Jesus himself speaking
I think the above verses are more than sufficient to demonstrate my case.

Thanks to my opponent and I look forward to his rebuttal.

1 https://www.biblegateway.com...
2 https://www.biblegateway.com...
3 https://www.biblegateway.com...
4 https://www.biblegateway.com...
5 https://www.biblegateway.com...
khizr

Con

We know that the Bible has undergone many translations and some changes, because of which it has become susceptible to some grammatical errors. Which even christian sites do not deny. This can make the sayings of Jesus(PBUH) open to wide range of interpretations.

http://theresurgence.com...

Pro said: Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them,"I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?
"We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God. -John 10:30-33 [2]

My reply: Jesus does say that "i have shown you many good works from the father. For which of these do you stone me?

Who is Jesus(PBUH) reffering to" father" over here, why din't he say "I have shown you many good works . For which of these do you stone me?

Why did he use" from the father""???

Perhaps the Jews were misinformed that he claimed to be god.

You said:
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. -John

My reply: Here "He" could refer to a prophet, may be those people were told about his coming, by the prophets who came before him, so he is reminding them that he is that prophet whom you have been told about.

How will you prove" he" is being referred to god here. ??

You said: I and the Father are one.

My reply: This could also mean that they are somehow connected

You said: And Thomas answered and said to Him, """My Lord and my God!"-John 20:28

My reply: The bible does not say that he did not rebuke him, may be he did.

You said :All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.- Matthew 11:27

My reply: dons't really prove he is the son.

The big question is

If Jesus was god, why din't he just say so ???
What stopped him from claiming directly that he was god??
Why would he make it hard to understand that ??
would'nt it be easier to translate that single sentance" I am god"??

I will quote those places in bible, which proves that he is not god.

"'"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."" Mark 10:17-18

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

"My father is greater than all." (John 10:29)

The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)

"that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)

he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)

"he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father" (Matthew 26:39)

During the days of Jesus" life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Hebrews 5:7)

Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.(Acts 2:22)

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13)

your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed." (Acts 4:27)

"of Your holy servant Jesus." (Acts 4:30)

I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30)

He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them." (Mark 6:5)

the temple of my God the name of my God the city of my God comes down out of heaven from my God." (Rev. 3:12)

But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus." (Hebrews 2:9)
God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

Sources

https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 2
BennyW

Pro


I thank my opponent for his arguments last round and I will address the points and verses he brought up verse by verse, the bold is quoting him.


My opponent claims the Bible has gone through many different changes but the link he cites does not say exactly what he says it does. It does acknowledge some typographical errors that do not take away from what is actually being said and are typically easy to catch based on the context.


My opponent failed to address my first reference which is probably one of the strongest cases; the word Jesus uses, I am. Also if Jesus is no more than a man how could he be before Abraham? That’s the part you can’t really get around. This also relates to the several times in Revelation where Jesus refers to himself as the Alpha and Omega. (Rev. 1:8, 21:16, 22:13)


My opponent asks why Jesus refers to the Father rather than himself. Simply because the father is the first in the order of precedence in the Trinity but more on that a bit later. [1]


If the Jews misunderstood then surely Jesus would have corrected them and if he did the Gospels would include it.


My opponent suggests that Jesus is referring to himself merely as a prophet in John 8:24, however since when does this sort of thing apply to a prophet? All other prophets have said to trust in God rather than themselves. by the prophets who came before him, so he is reminding them that he is that prophet whom you have been told about. This is actually true as this is exactly what John the Baptist did but John who himself was a prophet referred to Jesus as being greater than himself. Why would John be so apprehensive about baptizing him and considering himself unworthy t do so? IN fact this brings up another good point, at the Baptism of Jesus by John God says Jesus is his son. He is very specific that it is his son even though other people are referred to as sons of God Jesus is referred to as the exclusive son.



My opponent’s reply to “I and the Father are one” is a fairly common one. Yes of course they are somehow connected to see how you must look at the context.


In reply to his comments about Thomas, there is no reason to assume that he didn’t rebuke him. If he did the burden of proof is on my opponent to prove he did, otherwise we must go with what the text says which leads to the conclusion that Jesus is God.


The next one my opponent says this doesn’t say he is the son. Actually if you read through the text it does. Jesus calls him "My Father". Then he says no one knows the Father except the son and vice versa. SO if you put it all together Jesus calls himself the Son of God.


If Jesus was god, why didn’t he just say so ???


He wanted to prove it, as you can see from the reaction of the Jews to just go and say it without proof they accuse him of blasphemy which they do anyway.


What stopped him from claiming directly that he was god?? Nothing stopped him and as I have shown his intention was clear to his audience.


Why would he make it hard to understand that ?? Part of this could be the weakness of the English translation, the Jews seemed to understand his meaning.


would'nt it be easier to translate that single sentence" I am god"?? That’s essentially what the phrase “before Abraham was I am” means knowing the meaning of the phrase I Am to the Jews.


He then attempts to disprove he was God using the following verses.


"'"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."" Mark 10:17-18


This question was a test. He was trying to show if the man was sincere as the next part where he asked him to give up everything as the rest of the test.


"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)


I mentioned earlier about the Father being Greater, this in in order, but not in Godliness.


"My father is greater than all." (John 10:29)


Everything else considered this should be obvious. What can be greater than God the Father?


The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)


I don’t see how this disproves anything. Worshiping the Father in no way says Jesus is not God in fact remember Jesus also said “No one comes to the Father except through me”-John 14:6


"that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)


This is another example of context with the verses around it and while it is not as clear he re he is referring to himself as God it is not precluded.


he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)


Here God is assumed to be the father. While Jesus was God, in his human form there were certain limits, such as not being omnipresent, he limited his power while on Earth.


"he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father" (Matthew 26:39)


This just reinforces the relationship between Father and Son.


During the days of Jesus" life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Hebrews 5:7)


This is pretty much the same as what I said about Luke 6:12.







Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.(Acts 2:22)


These miracles were accredited to him to show that he was the messiah.


The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13)


Jesus was sent to Earth to be a servant yet a King, a concept that actually makes a lot of sense, the leader should actually be the servant. This is also a reference to the suffering servant of Isaiah 52.


your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed." (Acts 4:27)"of Your holy servant Jesus." (Acts 4:30) Both of these also relate to what was said about Acts 3:13


Also, who do the Jews anoint? Kings and Jesus says “My Kingdom is not of this world”


I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30)


Jesus had a unique relationship to the Father and so he relied on the father, however far from being proof of him not being God it shows how directly he was connected to the father.


He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them." (Mark 6:5)


This is obviously not saying he is incapable of doing miracles since we have seen him do them elsewhere. The lack of belief of the people there did not allow them to truly want to be healed as you can see from the surrounding verses.


the temple of my God the name of my God the city of my God comes down out of heaven from my God." (Rev. 3:12)


Jesus here refers to his name, which wouldn’t be special if it weren’t for the fact it’s Holy.


But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus." (Hebrews 2:9)


This is referring to his humility as a human. Notice how it says ‘for a little while” so he was not permanently lower than the Angels.



My opponent made a good effort and taken out of context many of these verses would appear to suggest Jesus is not God, but that is why reading them in context is important. I thank him for his efforts and look forward to the next round. This is as much as I have room for anyway.



[1] http://www.answering-islam.org...


[ all other references] https://www.biblegateway.com...


khizr

Con

A typographical error (often shortened to typo) is a mistake made in the typing process (such as spelling, or leaving out a word) of printed material. Historically, this referred to mistakes in manual type-setting.

The link i gave you is a christian site which accepts there are less then 1 % errors, even 1% makes up to more then 8000 words approximately, that means a wrong word or missing word in every few lines.

I did not address your first argument which was Before Abraham was I am-John (8:58.)
because it looks like an incomplete sentance, perhaps it is one of those typographical error, and it does not show that Jesus(PBUH) was god either. And you say this is your strongest point.

Speaking of John 8:24, i replied "He could refer to a prophet, may be those people were told about his coming, by the prophets who came before him, so he is reminding them that he is that prophet whom you have been told about.

You just quoted half of it.
By this i meant that this is another way of interpreting it, depending on your believes.

Pro says: but John who himself was a prophet referred to Jesus as being greater than himself. Why would John be so apprehensive about baptizing him and considering himself unworthy t do so? IN fact this brings up another good point, at the Baptism of Jesus by John God says Jesus is his son. He is very specific that it is his son even though other people are referred to as sons of God Jesus is referred to as the exclusive son.

My reply : perhaps Jesus(PUBH) made for a far better prophet then him. You have to prove he is god not his son.


pro says: And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”-John 20:28
In reply to his comments about Thomas, there is no reason to assume that he didn’t rebuke him. If he did the burden of proof is on my opponent to prove he did, otherwise we must go with what the text says which leads to the conclusion that Jesus is God.

Maybe it is one of those typographical errors.




Pro tried to justify those verses which i quoted from the bible to prove that Jesus(PBUH) is not god.
But they were no way near sufficient, Pro is just playing with the words.



Pro claims that the strongest verse in the bible which proves that JesusPBUH) is god is this one.
Before Abraham was I am-John 8:58.


My strongest verses in the bible which proves that he is not god.

1) he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)
(is god praying to god over here ??)

2) "he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father" (Matthew 26:39)
( really pro, god is reinforcing relationship with himself ??)

3) During the days of Jesus" life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Hebrews 5:7)

4) your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed." (Acts 4:27)"of Your holy servant Jesus." (Acts 4:30

5)I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30)

6)'But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.' Mark (13, 32) :


If Jesus was god why is it that the bible does not record him claiming god, even if the jews blame him of blasphemy. Is he not omnipotent ??

when i say claim god means Jesus(PBUH) saying "i am god".



All this proves that Jesus(PBUH) is not god.


Debate Round No. 3
BennyW

Pro

I will get right into addressing the point my opponent brought up last round.

My opponent claims my first argument is not a complete sentence. It is a complete sentence if you understand what “I Am “ means. The fact he uses the present form to refer to something in the past shows he is saying he always has been, and by extension always will be. Again this is referring to what Gold called himself when Moses asked for a name, and again if my opponent thinks it’s an error the burden of proof is on him to prove it, rather than just saying “it could be” without any proof.

My opponent says perhaps quite a bit and then doesn’t back up his arguments, so his arguments are mostly speculation unsupported by the text. So his arguments are based on speculation. He says perhaps Jesus(PUBH) made for a far better prophet then him.” What other example is there of a prophet prophesying another prophet in the way John does to Jesus?

there is no reason to assume that he didn’t rebuke him.” There absolutely is since the text doesn’t say he did and if the text doesn’t say he did we must assume he didn’t unless other evidence can be found he did.

My opponent is not going to get anywhere by speculating and dismissing any of my points by claiming they could be typographical errors. That is not how it works unless he has some solid proof to the contrary, we have to go by what the text says.

He further address my rebuttals:
1) he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)
(is god praying to god over here ??)

Yes essentially as stated earlier everything proceeds from the Father and Jesus is in a state of humility.

2) "he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father" (Matthew 26:39)
( really pro, god is reinforcing relationship with himself ??)

Yes as it can be understood from what I have posted earlier about God making the connection to Jesus. You can’t take the verses in isolation.

If Jesus was god why is it that the bible does not record him claiming god, even if the jews blame him of blasphemy. Is he not omnipotent ??

In order to become a man he limited himself, most obviously he was not omnipresent. However that Does not disprove the essence of God being absent.

“when i say claim god means Jesus(PBUH) saying "i am god".

In setting up the debate I actually mention he never said those words specifically but we can tell by what he says and by the reaction of those around him that, that is what he meant.

I thank my opponent and look forward to the closing round. I would like to remind him that he cannot introduce any entirely new arguments as it wouldn’t be fair, I couldn’t respond to them.

Vote Pro.

khizr

Con

No, i cannot give 100% proof that the verses you quoted to prove he is god means something else, i was just giving an example of how it could be interpreted in different ways. A christian will interpret it in different way, a muslim can interpret it in a different way, an atheist might interpret it in a different way depending on their own beliefs. The verses them selfs are not 100% clear to show that he is god.
And ofcourse typographical error is possible.

Yes, you did mention that he did not directly claim to be god in the beginning, but my question was why din't he ??
Even if he limited his power on earth, obivously he can't be killed, and god would not have been afraid of human beings or jews blaming him of blasphemy, he came to deliver the truth, so if he was actually god he would have directly said that atleast before he left.


I will present the list of all the arguments pro has completely failed to address them.



1)'But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.'Mark (13, 32) :

2) The fact that there are nearly 8000 words that are either missing or translated wrong.
which means in every few lines there is an error


points pro tried to explain but failed.


1)During the days of Jesus" life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Hebrews 5:7)

"pro said Jesus(PBUH) limited his power on earth.

my reply : even if did limit his power on earth he would still not be crying to god for help, if he were god.

2)he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)

"pro says he is reinforcing relationship with father, If Jesus(PBUH) were god he would not have to pray to god under any circumstances.

3)"he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father" (Matthew 26:39)

same as above

4) During the days of Jesus" life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Hebrews 5:7)


If jesus(PBUH) were god he would not pray to god to save him from death even he limited his power on earth.

5) your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed." (Acts 4:27)"of Your holy servant Jesus." (Acts 4:30

6)The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13)


pro says:Jesus was sent to Earth to be a servant yet a King, a concept that actually makes a lot of sense, the leader should actually be the servant

My reply: here its refering to god's servent not peoples servent.thats very clear.


With these verses its clear that jesus(PBUH) was not god, and this verses are also not open to different interpretations.

saying Jesus(PBUH) is god, just does'nt fit in to these verses and that is very clear.

I would also like to request the voters to not let their own beliefs reflect in their voting, and to judge purely on the content of the debate.


Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by khizr 2 years ago
khizr
@Modest : I thought you meant somehing else.
Posted by Modest 2 years ago
Modest
@khizr: I know what do you talking about, But If we are sure (Muslims) that Jesus isn't a god then we Have a mission to prove it for who believe that He is a God.
Posted by khizr 2 years ago
khizr
@ Modest : isn't that very clear that Jesus(PBUH) is not god. Then why are you asking people to twist those words and make you believe that he is god.
Posted by Modest 2 years ago
Modest
Please Can any christian can explain me this situation in the Bible who signify for me the principal evidence to prove that Jesus is Not God :
When we say a God , we goin directly for this explication, God Know everythin about what he creat in Human and the Univers and a lot Of things, but let's see what the Bible said in Mark (13, 32) : 'But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.' this verse explain that Jesus who considirate that he is a God , don't know the day of judgment, This Not a defamation Of Jesus ...
Posted by khizr 2 years ago
khizr
Cheyennebodie - are you mentally retarded.

Have you forgotten about the Islamic golden era which lasted up to 800 years.
And at the same time, in the christian world the church was in power, do you know what happened at that time ?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by BennyW 2 years ago
BennyW
I actually find debating this with Muslims is more fun than debating it with atheists as atheists s tend to get off topic and attack the claims made in Christianity itself rather than the resolution.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Isnt it something that between islam countries and bible influenced countries that the Christian influence produces the most prosperity. When was the last time anyone bought something made in ANY muslim nation. The only thing I have ever seen them export was terrorists.Aside from oil there is nothing. What kind of imagination does it take to pump a liquid out of the ground.Even the oil fields were started by others.
Posted by a_drumming_dog 2 years ago
a_drumming_dog
Oh man I knew con was gonna be a muslim haha. I'm interested in how this debate will turn out
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
My name wasn't Jesus-
I had a Hebrew name, pronounced Yeshua.
Neither I, nor any other Biblical personage, spoke in English-
English didn't even EXIST back then.
I think I was quoted as saying, translated into modern English, :
"God is in spirit so if you want to pray to God you have to pray in spirit. "
I obviously wasn't claiming to be God.
My statement that I & my Father are one didn't mean that I was claiming to be God, it means that we're linked, like telepathically, or spiritually.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Jesus did say,"f you have seen me you will have seen the Father." But he did identify with man. He did not come to prove he was the son of God. O ,yes he was, but he identified with man and called himself " the son of man." He didn't walk the shores of Gallilee as the son of God, but as a prophet under the Abrahamic covenant.He didn't do those things to prove he could do them, but to prove we can walk in that covenant as well. Jesus is not the one that introduced healing. God introduced in in the old covenant. Psalms 103:3.In fact you couild not look at Jesus and tell he was the son of God. He said, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you."In other words, you couldn't feel his skin or look at him and tell. He had a body like everyone else. It was a perfect body and had never experience the law of sin and death, but it was the body of a man. Now what he did on the cross, non other could do. Remember there was a woman brought to him that was bowed over 18 years. He called her up there and said, " woman, you are loosed from this infirmity that satan put on you" then he layed his hands on her and immediately she was made straight." Then the pastor got all bent out of shape because he did it on the wrong day.Then Jesus said,"ought not this woman be freed on the sabath day, SEEING SHE IS A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM."Based on the Abrahamic covenant Jesus laid his hands on her and expected her to raise up. Not walk off, " well some get it and some don't."That pastor had her for 18 years and never preached the Abrahamic covenant to her. He preached traditions. Jesus said, " your traditions makes God's word have no effect." It is the same today. Religious traditions make God's word have no effect on the people. Healing is just as real today as it was back then. Even more so. The bible says that we have a better covenant founded upon better promises. The real enemy of Christianity is traditions.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
BennyWkhizrTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: A long debate. And interesting--lots of points here. And not all of Pro's arguments were necessarily as compelling as he'd hoped. But he really only needed one, and no direct contradiction. Con didn't show any DENIAL of it, and the winning blow, to me, seemed to be the equivalency--Con's argument that it could be that they are just "somehow connected" falls quite flat--it's a clear equivalency. If there were some meat to that objection, I might have accepted it, but just supposing that maybe it doesn't mean what it says isn't sufficient for me. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.