The Instigator
Lucassamson
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
christthinker
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus Is God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 6/30/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 817 times Debate No: 77138
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
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Lucassamson

Con

I would like to have this debate with a trinitarian Christian who believes Jesus is God. I am setting conditions for this challenge and they are as follows.

*since Christians belive that God is All-knowing, the pro must be able to prove how Jesus matches this criteria.

*Christians claim to be monotheistic, the pro must prove that Jesus is God and there is no other God besides him.

*If Jesus was the son of God, how then is he God and yet God is one?

First round is for acceptance, not for argument.

Second round is for presentation of arguments

Third round for rebuttals and the fourth round for concluding arguments.
christthinker

Pro

I will cite some Bible verses here. They can be verified by going to biblegaeway.com and entering the cite just as here. Choose the Good News Translation (GNT) as that is what I am quoting from.

1. Jesus is not "all-knowing." Christ says that He does not know everything at Mark 13:32. When asked when the end of the world / second coming / final judgment would be, Christ said, "No one knows, however, when that day or hour will come"neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son; only the Father knows." Therefore, by his own admission, Christ does not know everything, but God (the Father) is all knowing. This makes the unity of the Trinity interesting doesn't it!

2. One cannot prove that there is no other God but God because that is NOT what Christianity teaches. See Romans 8:38-39 where "other Heavenly Rulers and Powers" are mentioned. See Job 1:6-7 where other heavenly beings are meeting with the Lord. See Exodus 20:3 where God says, you shall worship no god but Me. So, God is not the only god.

One cannot prove with logic that Jesus is God. Such is a matter of faith. For that matter, the only thing that can be perfectly proved by logic is Descartes" statement: "I think therefore I am." If God could be proved by logic, then everyone would be a believer. God"s intention is that He can only be known through faith. How could humans possibly prove, with science and logic, the existence of God? We do not even know what 95% of the matter and energy in the Universe is (dark matter and dark energy). We do not even understand how gravity works. How could we possibly comprehend the Creator of the Universe in His full glory?

3. Jesus is the Son of God and He is God. How can a quantum particle be in two locations at the same time? How does quantum entanglement work?

Jesus is one of the three states of God. Jesus is God in human form. The Holy Spirit is God connecting directly with humans. God is God in his full glory. Now, God knows some things that Jesus does not. Consider that you do not know everything that is going on inside your "subconscious" mind. Yet you are still one person. Jesus does not know everything that is going on within the greater mind of the Father. It is complicated isn"t it? Would you expect anything less from the Creator of everything? Would you expect anything less from a being that is an infinite amount of time older than you are?
Debate Round No. 1
Lucassamson

Con

Many times I wonder if Jesus of the church is different from Jesus of the Bible. A Christian's rationale for claiming Jesus is God does not only seem preposterous but also against rational and logical thinking. The holiest book of the Christians makes the person of Jesus very clear and vivid. I will give Bible verses that annul the claim that "Jesus is God '

* According to Christianity, God is all-knowing, He knows everything and there's no entity that knows better God. According to Christianity, God is the most supreme being in heaven and on earth. This verse disqualifies Jesus being God as he did not match the criteria of being supreme and not All-knowing

http://bible.com... Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The verse above clarifies that Jesus was not All-knowing neither was he supreme but he (Jesus) gave reference to his father in heaven who is All-knowing and superior to Jesus and no one is superior to him. Hence his father matches the criteria of being God unlike Jesus.

*Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus claimed to be God. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is the president of a country, you would expect that president to acknowledge that he is a president , at least once. In the old testament, Yahweh whom Jesus was referring to as his father according to Matthew 24:36 posted above says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.

Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT?

* JESUS, A GOD WHO DIDN'T OWN POWER AND AUTHORITY BUT WAS GIVEN??

As we all know, God is all-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so this is not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God, Jesus does not own any power or any authority, rather it is given to him from God.

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

This is paradoxical as Christians claim that God is one but yahweh (Jesus' heavenly father) is God and Jesus is also God. This is self contradictory, that the former is God can only be true if the latter is not God and vice versa.
christthinker

Pro

Did you read my post or just decide on your argument in advance? One of the things that once made me a very good litigator (I moved on to greater challenges) is that I followed this logic: "God gave us two ears and one mouth " obviously, He wanted us to listen twice and much as we talk."

In my last post, I corrected you when I used the Bible verse that you just mentioned showing that Jesus is NOT all knowing. I also explained why, the fact that Jesus is God and Jesus is not all-knowing does not mean that God is not all knowing. It is complicated, so I will just point you to my first post.

I will take the opportunity to note that the Bible is not really "a book," but instead is a collection of books. This is an important distinction because some of these "books" are considered more holy than others. Furthermore, different denominations or branches of Christianity have different books included within their Bibles"

Before I go further, I will note that I mistakenly assumed that you were either agnostic or atheist. I do like to put out that there is logic within Christianity that is not easily apparent to these non-believers. Had I known you were a member of one of the religions descended from Abraham, I would not have accepted the challenge, as it seems a waste to argue with a member of a religion that believes Christians can go to heaven while at the same time said religion is one that I believe (Islam) can lead to heaven. See my blog post at http://www.christthinker.org... for why I don"t like "Nitpicking Church Dogma." Now, the challenge having been accepted, I will continue.

I scanned the rest of your list of Bible verses that you use to provide that Jesus is not God. These passages are uses without other passages that clarify them " within the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. In short, these passages are taken out of context.

In the past, I noticed that that when opposing counsel cited a very long list of cases, they were often hiding something. A quick cite-check would often show cases that distinguished the matter at hand, or actually overruled the other cases. While I do not think you are trying to hide anything, I do think you googled a quick list without closely considering the matter. I will do the same, but will just cite the list by URL. See http://www.openbible.info... for a list of verses related to Jesus being God. I scanned these verses and I believe that some of these are also taken out of context, but I wouldn"t want to go through every verse you cited in order to explain each. That would take at least a week! Now, I think we have just confused the readers greatly. I hope, in the next round, you will focus on just a few bits of strong evidence and then try to back up your position with logic. I will do the same. This should give a much more coherent position on both sides.

In the paragraph that you start with "as we all know," you make the argument that Jesus is not God because he has no authority of his own. Jesus is God in His human form. Jesus is part of God. Your hands are part of you. It would not be incorrect to say that your hands are you. It would be incorrect to say that your hands are all of you. You are making this jump to the use of "all." Jesus is part of God in that he is one with God.

Then, you go further to say that, Jesus didn"t do anything on his own. Again, using the hands analogy, your hands do not do anything without you (I hope not). In the same way, Jesus didn"t do anything without God. Back to the analogy, are your hands not part of you? Are your hands not "one with you?"

This is only self-contradictory if you try to look at it from an "earthly" view based upon your day-to-day life. Do you really think the God that created the entire Universe lives in any way as we do in our day-to-day lives. It is very important that we never forget, that we don"t even begin to have the knowledge to completely understand God. In a paragraph above, you said, "we all know," but none of us "know" anything by logic alone; it takes faith when dealing with a concept so far above our human ability to understand, such as God"

Instead of trying to win the debate, let"s try to find as much of the truth as we possibly can. Finding the truth in such complex issues is a task unto itself"
Debate Round No. 2
Lucassamson

Con

This is my third round of argument and I will go on to refute the points of the pro but before I continue, I want to call the attention of the audience to how the pro didn't obey the conditions of this debate either deliberately or unintentionally.

THESE ARE THE RULES FOR THIS DEBATE;

"*since Christians believe that God is All-knowing, the pro must be able to prove how Jesus matches this criteria.

*Christians claim to be monotheistic, the pro must prove that Jesus is God and there is no other God besides him.

*If Jesus was the son of God, how then is he God and yet God is one?

First round is for acceptance, not for argument.

Second round is for presentation of arguments

Third round for rebuttals and the fourth round for concluding arguments."

<<<>>><<<>>>><<<>>>>><<<<>>>>><<<>>><<<<>>>>><<<<>>>>>>

I didn't force the pro to accept this challenge, he saw the rules I set for the debate, I don't know why he should accept the challenge and then totally go against it by trying to disprove what he was asked to explain. If he knows the conditions are wrong in his own perspective, he needs not to have accepted the challenge.

One of the conditions of the debate says "FIRST ROUND IS FOR ACCEPTANCE". I would not conclude that the pro didn't read this or he intentionally violated the rule as he went on to make his points in the first round.

Another condition says "since Christians believe that God is All-knowing, the pro must be able to prove how Jesus matches this criteria". The pro, in his first round attested to the fact that Jesus wasn't all knowing but went on to explaining why he is still God despite the fact that he isn't all knowing, hence failing to meet up with what he was challenged to prove that Jesus matched the criteria of being ALL-KNOWING.

The pro wrote these;

"... Before I go further, I will note that I mistakenly assumed that you were either agnostic or atheist. I do like to put out that there is logic within Christianity that is not easily apparent to these non-believers. Had I known you were a member of one of the religions descended from Abraham, I would not have accepted the challenge, as it seems a waste to argue with a member of a religion that believes Christians can go to heaven while at the same time said religion is one that I believe (Islam) can lead to heaven.... "

" I will take the opportunity to note that the Bible is not really "a book," but instead is a collection of books. This is an important distinction because some of these "books" are considered more holy than others. Furthermore, different denominations or branches of Christianity have different books included within their Bibles.. "

These two points which the pro raise above may be valid but do not address the issue in question, ingnoratio elenchi. They are in no way pertinent to the topic.

<<<<<>>>>>><<<>>>>><<<<>>>>>><<<>>>><<>>>><<>>>>><<>>>>

I will now proceed to make rebuttals against the points of the pro.

REBUTTAL 1

In the pro's first round he wrote;
//// " One cannot prove that there is no other God but God because that is NOT what Christianity teaches. See Romans 8:38-39 where "other Heavenly Rulers and Powers" are mentioned. See Job 1:6-7 where other heavenly beings are meeting with the Lord. See Exodus 20:3 where God says, you shall worship no god but Me. So, God is not the only god"///////

I am going to repudiate this point by proving that one can proof there is no other God but God. I quote;

" http://bible.com... Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

This verse makes it clear that there's only one God. Their are also other verses that annul the claim of the pro that one can't proof that there's no other God but God. I quote ;

" http://bible.com... I am the Lord , and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me. "

http://bible.com... Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord :

Jesus himself disproved the claim of the pro, I quote what Jesus said ;

" http://bible.com... And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

http://bible.com... And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Was Jesus unaware that he is God????

The pro also asked me to See Romans 8:38-39 where "other
Heavenly Rulers and Powers" are mentioned.Job 1:6-7 where other heavenly beings are meeting with the Lord. See Exodus 20:3 where God says, you shall worship no god but Me. So,
God is not the only god.

I didn't ask the pro to prove that there's no other 'g'od except Jesus, I asked him to proof that there's no God except Jesus. Exodus 20:3 says "you shall no god (krishna, baal etc) but me (God)

<<<<<>>>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>
REBUTTAL 2

The pro wrote ;

" Jesus is the Son of God and He is God. How can a quantum particle be in two locations at the same time? How does quantum entanglement work?"

I quote;

http://bible.com... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This verse clearly states that there is a God(first person) and a son(second person). If this son is God, then we have God A(the sender) and God B(the sent) which gives us two Gods hence contradicting the monotheism Christians believe in.

<<<>>>><<<<<>>>><<>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<<>>>><<<<<<>>>
REBUTTAL 3

The pro wrote ;

// Jesus is one of the three states of God. Jesus is God in human form. The Holy Spirit is God connecting directly with humans. God is God in his full glory. Now, God knows some things that Jesus does not. Consider that you do not know everything that is going on inside your "subconscious" mind. Yet you are still one person. Jesus does not know everything that is going on within the greater mind of the Father. It is complicated isn"t it? //

It is not in anyway complicated but simply preposterous, illogical and grossly irrational. This would only make sense if trinitarian Christians accept that they are polytheists not monotheists.

Considering that I do not know everything that's going on inside my subconscious mind yet am one body does not fit in here . Jesus was human, the other God who sent Jesus isn't. Two different entities. When God jesus was eating on earth, God A was in heaven and God Holyspirit was in reserve waiting for God Jesus to die so he could come come and abide forever with the followers of God Jesus..... And yet God is one???

I and my subconscious mind are inseparable. When I die, it dies. When Jesus died, God in heaven didn't die. When Jesus was going about on earth preaching to people, God in heaven knows and sees but was in his place. When Jesus was being circumcised, God in heaven was aware hence it is not possible to equalise my not knowing what's going on in my subconscious mind with God and Jesus.

I am done with my rebuttal, I will go on to make my concluding points in the fourth round.
christthinker

Pro

I apologize to the Con if he feels that I have violated the rules of the debate. Originally, I was simply trying to help the Con to make his argument.

The Con started by proceeding from a false premise. The Con cannot have a valid argument when it is built on a false foundation. For example, if I were to say that 2 + 2 = 5, therefore, 2+2+5 = 10, I would be wrong. The correct answer would be 9. The conclusion was incorrect because we started with an incorrect statement: 2+2 = 5. In a similar way, the Con has said that Jesus must be proved all knowing. Jesus himself says that he is not all knowing. Thus, the Con has started from a false premise as I mentioned in my first post. Second, the Con wants us to prove that there is no other God but Jesus. The Con continuously relies upon Biblical reference, but I have shown that there are other "heavenly beings" that could be considered gods (lower case "god"). See Romans 8:38-39, which refers to actual living heavenly beings beyond the mere idols, we see on earth. Therefore, from the start, the Con has been proceeding from a false premise.

Attempting to resort to procedural lifesavers is often the sign of a desperate argument. The Con could have made better arguments against the existence of a holy trinity, yet he has abandoned substantive arguments in favor of procedural pleas.

I pointed out a fact about the Bible, which the Con claims to be ingnoratio elenchi. It is important that the Con understand the Bible since he is using Biblical references for all his "proofs."

I will use humor to refute the Con"s position that Jesus cannot be the Son of God and God at the same time: I had a salad with dinner tonight. I had lettuce, cheese, dressing, and imitation bacon bits. The fact that I ate cheese, lettuce, dressing and imitation bacon bits made the salad no less of a salad! The sum of the parts still made the one salad! OK, Con, you should have fun with this one.

The Con says that the concept of Jesus being the Son of God and being God is preposterous. I will refer you to the Nicene Creed to give a very accurate description of Christian monotheism as well as the Trinity.

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

See http://www.togetheratonealtar.catholic.edu.au... for a better reading of the Creed.
You will notice that creed start with "we believe in One God" and then goes on to describe Jesus as being "one in being with the Father." Note that the aforementioned "God" is with an upper case "G."

These parts of the Nicene Creed were decided at the first Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Contrary to popular belief, the determination of which books would be included in the Christian Bible was probably after the first Council of Nicaea. Follow this link https://en.wikipedia.org... to learn more about the council.
Therefore, here we have a "creed" that is followed by all Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and many Protestant Christians that says that there is only one God and Jesus is one with that one God. Furthermore, this "creed" pre-dates the Bible.

Clearly, we are saying that there is one God and clearly we are saying that Jesus is God and at the same time, the Son of God. It is a difficult concept to grasp, but it is not irrational or preposterous except to those who choose not to believe. In the same way, such a person would say that the talking serpent of Genesis is irrational and preposterous. Alternatively, the same person would say that the Big Bang of science is irrational and preposterous.

See Matthew 13:13 GNT where Jesus says, "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Note that The Father goes by many names: God, Jehovah, Yahweh, and Allah among others. In a similar manner, God goes by many forms: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God is not nearly as simple as we humans are, but sometimes I wish He were, because then it would be easier to explain!

See http://www.christthinker.org... on my blog for a description of the parts of the Trinity.
Debate Round No. 3
Lucassamson

Con

In the first and second round, I have been trying to prove Jesus is not God according to the christians Bible, in this round, I will solidify my points by extending my references outside the Bible coupled with logic. The pro should note that I have been making my arguments using biblical references because I believe that is what he believes in. My reasons for arguing that Jesus is not God are not confined to the Bible

JESUS IN JUDAISM

In Judaism, Jesus is not believed to be God. Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to
Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a
form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the
absolute unity and singularity of God .

The belief that Jesus is God , the Son of God , or a person
of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish theology. Jews
believe Jesus did not fulfill messianic prophecies that
establish the criteria for the coming of the messiah. [7]
Authoritative texts of Judaism reject Jesus as God, Divine
Being, intermediary between humans and God, messiah
or saint. Belief in the Trinity is also held to be
incompatible with Judaism, as are a number of other
tenets of Christianity .To read more about what the Jewish talmud say about Jesus, go here https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

JESUS IN ISLAM

Islam honors all the prophets who were sent to mankind.
Muslims respect all prophets in general, but Jesus in
particular, because he was one of the prophets who foretold
the coming of Muhammad. Muslims, too, await the second
coming of Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of
Allah's prophets to mankind. A Muslim does not refer to
him simply as "Jesus," but normally adds the phrase "peace
be upon him" as a sign of respect.

In the Quran , there are many stories about the life and
teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic). The Quran
recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he
performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected
prophet of God. The Quran also repeatedly reminds that
Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God
Himself.

I will quote some Quran verses that talks about Jesus below ;

[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah(God) . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
Holy Qur'an: Maryam (19:30) - http://www.muslimpro.com...

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger;
many were the messengers that passed away before him.
See Also: Do Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus?
His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat
their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to
them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the
truth!" (5:75).

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has
given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made
me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me
prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to
my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is
on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day
that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the
son of Mary.
It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should
beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a
matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

I will also use humor (like the pro claimed to do in his third round of argument) to proof that it is not only polytheistic to say Jesus is God but also irrational, preposterous and illogical.

The pro is a trinitarian Christian and he believes in the Bible. While making this point, I am agreeing to disagree that Jesus is God. Since Jesus is God, then God is Jesus and then, we can write God instead of Jesus in a sentence. Let's see how it is going to fit in biblical verses. Since Jesus is God, I will be writing God instead of Jesus in the following biblical verse and anywhere Jesus referred to God, I will replace with myself or me. I quote ;

<<<<>>>>>>><<<>>
http://bible.com... And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Since Jesus is God, we can write the verse this way

"mat.27.46.kjv And about the ninth hour GOD cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, myself, myself , why have I forsaken myself ?
~~~~~~~
http://bible.com... Jesus wept.

Since Jesus is God, we may also write,

"jhn.11.35.kjv GOD WEPT"........ The crying God.
~~~~~
http://bible.com... The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Since Jesus is God, the verse can also be written like this

"act.3.13.kjv The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son GOD ; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

AND LASTLY

http://bible.com... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

since Jesus is God, the verse can be rewritten this way

http://bible.com... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and God , whom thou hast sent.
~~~~~
Does it make any sense?? Well, trinitarian Christians are not expecting the theory of trinity to make sense to those who do not believe that Jesus is God as the pro said in his second argument that it is complicated.

The question is why will a God decide to make his concept sound irrational, illogical and complicated.

None of the disciples of Jesus christ believed in the concept of trinity. None of them called him God .

Christians do claim Thomas recognised Jesus to be God that's why he said "My lord and my God! " when he saw Jesus after the CRUCI-FICTION. this is false, the exclamation of Thomas is similar to say oh my God! Or oh my Goodness!!!

Nowhere in the Bible or any other book did Jesus call himself GOD. The early Christians never called Jesus God. Even in this century, jehovah witnesses and other unitarian Christian denominations do not believe jesus to be God.

Every explicit scripture shows that at every point of his
existence Jesus has a God over him and he was less than
Almighty God (Micah.5:2-4; John.14:28; 20:17; Mark.13:32;
Rom.15:6; Rev.3:2,12). At the highest position he will ever
attain, Jesus is still "subject" to *GOD*.

It is unfortunate that I can type a maximum of 10,000 words, I reached the max and I had to delete some points having never touched trinity. If the pro would like to have a debate on trinity, I will gladly challenge him nevertheless, I will make some points on it.

The word trinity is no where to be found in the Bible. No disciple of Jesus believed in trinity.The only way someone can believe that Jesus is Almighty
God is to ignore the clear, explicit statements of the his/her Bible and accept incorrect interpretations based on
ignorance of the facts.

Trinity wasn't preached by Jesus. Tertullian, sabellianism, first council of nicea 20 May to 19 Jun, AD 325, council of constantinople all contributed to formation of trinity. I would have loved to debut it all in this debate but I can't type more than 10k words. Here's a link to study more about trinityhttp://plato.stanford.edu...

Ask a Christian ;

Is Jesus God? A=YES

son of God? A=YES

Son of MAN? A=YES

he died? A=YES

God rose him up? A=Yes

Lamb of God? A=YES.

I stop here with this verse

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not
yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and your Father; and to my God, and
your God.

Jesus never claimed to be God, if Jesus ever claimed to be God, please bring your proof!!!
christthinker

Pro

You have a good post, but it is still missing important points. I will note, that I am happy for the 10,000-word limit! In law school, we were taught to be concise, to the point and as brief as possible. Therefore, I will try to do so here. Very few lawyers ever figure out how to be brief!

The Muslim View you mention:

I was aware of the high honor Jesus receives in the Holy Quran. I also suspected that you were using the Bible because that is what I believe in. Thank you. I will note that I do have one little problem with your use of the Bible: you used the King James Version! I don"t speak old English or middle English or whatever language the King James Version is written in. I speak the modern American version of English. I think the translation chosen is very important, as the Bible is difficult enough to comprehend anyway. Many Christians like these old versions " I don"t wish to struggle. I use the Good News Translation (GNT) and the English Standard Version (ESV). It is easy to switch between translations at http://www.biblegagteway.com....

There was a time when I tried to read the Holy Quran. I didn"t finish is for one reason: correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is ordered by verse from the shortest verse to the longest. Such a format would make it very difficult to keep from taking passages out of context. I do plan to read it again, but hopefully it will be a hyperlinked version so that I can get a better feel for the context. My interest in reading it was actually my suspicion that both fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims were taking statements out of context. You wouldn"t believe the things some Christians who have read the Quran say about it. I usually laugh and tell them that they could find the same type passages in the Bible and that they are probably taking positions out of context. In the same way, I suspect that many Jihadists are taking things out of context.

In addition to having been a litigator in the past, I also practiced tax law at one time. I have an LLM in taxation. The tax code, tax regulations, revenue procedures, private letter rulings, etc., is the messiest piece of intertwined cross references I think one will find anywhere on the planet! Finding the context within the American tax law is very difficult. In a similar manner, the Bible can be difficult. I will use the "gay" issue as an example. In advance, I will note that my secular opinion on the gay issue is different from my opinion within my church. Such is one of the complexities created by a belief in the separation of Church and State. Jimmy Carter noted that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. However, Jimmy Carter (I do have a lot of admiration for President Carter) is wrong in this case. See Matthew 15:19-20 ESV. In this verse, Jesus speaks against "sexual immorality." The question is, "what is sexual immorality?" See Matthew 5:17-20 ESV where Jesus says he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Therefore, unless Jesus expressly amends part of the Law of Moses (he did in several places), a particular provision of the Old Testament law would still be in effect. Leviticus 18 ESV defines sexual immorality. At Leviticus 18:22 ESV explicitly includes homosexuality as being prohibited under the law as presented by Moses. My point has nothing to do with the "gay" issue, but instead with the complexity of context. To make things even more complex, I will note that Matthew 15:19-20 GNT doesn"t have Jesus saying anything about sexual immorality, but instead only says only "immorality." Quoting the Bible can be very complicated and I fear that the same may be true of the Quran.

You had a good argument regarding Thomas" statement, "My Lord, my God." That would have been the verse I would have used for my proof by Biblical reference. I will use another one: see John 10:30 ESV where Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." In addition, there is a list of similar quotes by Jesus at this link http://www.openbible.info.... I will note that I believe some of the quotes on this list would have been taken out of context" Consider this my proof by Biblical reference.

Had you been an Atheist, I would have had to not only prove the divinity of Christ and his oneness with God, but I would have had to prove the existence of Jesus, the truth of the words of the Bible and proof that there is a God. The proof of these questions is actually my greater proof and his completed by the proof is the preceding paragraph. Here is the proof: if everyone were to follow the teaching of Christ we would have peace on earth, we would have no hunger and no poverty. There is an obvious difference between "Christian" and "person who follows the teaching of Christ." I will elaborate on this in a moment. Christ said to "love each other" and "to even love your enemies." There could be no war if everyone followed this commandment of Christ. Christ said See Matthew 25:35-46 for Christ"s criteria to be used at the Final Judgment. If everyone met Christ"s definition of the "righteous" as noted in Matthew 25:35-46, there would be no hunger and no crippling poverty anywhere in the world. See my posts "Why Christ"s Teachings Are More Important Now Than Ever; Regardless of Whether Christ Is Real or Not"" at http://www.christthinker.org... as well as my post which will be titled "5 Ways The World Would Be Better If Everyone Followed Christ"s Teachings." This second posts should be up either today or tomorrow.

My point is that the proof of Christ is in the teachings of Christ! It would be hard to argue with what He teaches. Note, that one could follow Christ"s teachings but be a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or even Atheist. On the other hand, few Christians actually follow Christ"s teachings. Admittedly, such teaching go against our savage human nature and it is a difficult concept to put into practice.

Before I conclude, I will note that the Con says the Trinity makes no sense in that there is one God, but Jesus is God and Jesus is also the Son of God. The Con is basing these conclusions upon his every day observations from the viewpoint of a human being. From God"s perspective, as Creator of everything, the perspective would be much different. Rather than speculate on how God sees things, I will just point to another Bible verse where Jesus says, "This is impossible for human beings, but for God, everything is possible."

I believe our religions are not that different and we should strive to find common ground. Different opinions on the divinity of Christ are small in comparison to the teachings of Christ and the effect they could have on the world if everyone were to implement these teachings " especially the teachings I mentioned above.

Thank you for a good debate and as we always say in the Catholic Mass, "peace be with you."
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Lucassamson 1 year ago
Lucassamson
The pro wrote "the proof of Jesus should be in Jesus' teachings". Jesus said this in John14:28.. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am
coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would
be glad that I am going to the Father, for the
Father is greater than I.
Posted by AlhajiDawah 1 year ago
AlhajiDawah
Jesus is a Servant of God

Acts 3:13 New International Version
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his SERVANT Jesus.

Acts 4:27 New International Version and International Standard Version
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy SERVANT Jesus, whom you anointed.

John 17:3 Jesus says "And eternal life means knowing you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and knowing Jesus Christ, WHOM YOU SENT."

Quran 19:30 [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the SERVANT of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
Posted by Lucassamson 1 year ago
Lucassamson
Lexus, the Bible stands as a book
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
Its a good debate, its one reason islam was formed, because the idea that there are these three beings that are yet are not gods violates the idea of monotheism.
Posted by Lexus 1 year ago
Lexus
Is the bible assumed to be the true word of god for this debate?
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