The Instigator
Patzer24
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
jpvn14
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points

Jesus Is the Messiah Prophecied in the Old Testament

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Patzer24
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/25/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,202 times Debate No: 18466
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (3)

 

Patzer24

Con

Greetings,

This is my first (real) debate on this account and would like to debate the following resolution: "Jesus Christ is the Messiah that was foretold in the old testament."

I am Jewish and do not believe Jesus was Messiah. I would like someone to please (try) and prove me wrong.

First round, my opponent may start in attempts to show Jesus as Messiah.
jpvn14

Pro

Let me just say what an honor it is to debate against you!

Here are some questions for you:

Who do you think Jesus is?

Do you think He died on the cross?

When Peter acknowledged Jesus' Messiahship, Jesus did not correct Peter, but accepted Peter's answer (Matt. 16: 17-19). The woman from Samaria stated her belief that the Messiah was coming (John 4: 25). "Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he" (John 4: 26). Jesus' teaching and miracles were proof of his Messiahship. Jesus' teaching was different from others in his day (Matt. 7: 28, 29). Nicodemus said to Jesus: "...we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him" (John 3: 1-2, see also 20: 30, 31).

The word Christ which means Messiah was used over 500 times in the New estament. Most of the times it was being referred toas Jesus.

Do you believe the Bible is true?

If you believe the Bible is true, then you should have no doubt believing in Jesus as the Messiah. And rememebr, to be f a Chrisitian faith, you have to realize that ALL of the Bible is true, not just some of the Bible.

Resources:
http://www.biblequestions.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Patzer24

Con

Greetings,

I would like to welcome my opponent to debate.org and would like to thank him for accepting this debate. Is Jesus messiah? By the end of the debate, I hope my opponent would have a better understanding of the Jewish position and why Jesus could NOT have been messiah.

==PRO'S ARGUMENTS==

I first wish to address PRO's arguments before going into the Jewish detail as to why Jesus could not have been Messiah.

"Who do you think Jesus is?" Jesus was probably a man that was legendized by the Christians. He may (or may not have) existed.

"Do you think he died on the cross?" From the evidence I have seen, more than likely.

"When Peter acknowledged Jesus' Messiahship, Jesus did not correct Peter, but accepted Peter's answer (Matt. 16: 17-19). The woman from Samaria stated her belief that the Messiah was coming (John 4: 25). "Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he" (John 4: 26). Jesus' teaching and miracles were proof of his Messiahship. Jesus' teaching was different from others in his day (Matt. 7: 28, 29). Nicodemus said to Jesus: "...we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him" (John 3: 1-2, see also 20: 30, 31)."

This does not really prove anything...we know that miracles DO happen from false teachers. Notice the following What Deuteronomy 13:2-3 says, "If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder of which he spok to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," you shall not heed the words of that prophet; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

It seems to me that it is very possible that miracles do occur within false teachers. Hashem is rather testing you to see if you truly desire to worship Him.

"The word Christ which means Messiah was used over 500 times in the New Testament. Most of the times it was being referred to as Jesus." I honestly fail to see your point.

"Do you believe the Bible is true?" Yes, I believe the Tanach (as you would say, "Old" Testament) is true. I believe that the Torah is as relevant today as it was 3,000 years ago.

"If you believe the Bible is true, then you should have no doubt believing in Jesus as the Messiah. And rememebr, to be f a Chrisitian faith, you have to realize that ALL of the Bible is true, not just some of the Bible." The problem is that I do believe that the Tanach is true (the "old" testament), but reject the New Testament. (Remember, I am a Jew).

==CON'S CASE==

I would now like to share some of the Burden of Proof and explain why Jesus, most certainly, was NOT the Messiah.

Contention 1: Wrong lineage

(P1) The messiah must be a descendent of David through his son, Solomon.
(P2) Jesus was not a descendent of David through his son, Solomon.
(C) Therefore, Jesus was not messiah.

Matthew and Luke's genealogy not only contradict each other, but contradict the Hebrew scripture. According to Jewish Law, tribal identification "comes from the father's side," while the mother determines whether or not the child is Jewish. If Jesus was born of a virgin, he could NOT have been a true descendent of David.

Furthermore, we read in Luke 3:31 that it was Nathan that was the ancestor of Jesus through David. Therefore, he could NOT have been Messiah.

2Samuel 7:12-16 – (12) When your days are fulfilled, and you shall lie with your forefathers,
then I will raise up your seed that shall issue from your body after you, and I will establish
his kingdom. (13) He shall build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. (14) I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he
goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with afflictions of human beings.
(15) And My mercy shall not depart from him; in the manner in which I withdrew it from
Saul, whom I removed from before you. (16) And your house and your kingdom shall be
established forever before you; your throne shall be established forever.
We see the following elements in the Davidic covenant:
1) An everlasting dynasty, the Davidic dynasty, is established with David
2) David's heir to the throne, through whom this dynasty shall pass, will be one of his
natural (biological) sons
3) The son who inherits the throne from David is the one who will build the Temple in
Jerusalem
4) The Davidic dynasty will propagate through David's seed ( זֶרַע [ZEra]), i.e., via his direct
descendants
5) Every future king who sits upon the throne of David will be a mortal man
6) Every future king who sits upon the throne of David will have a special "father-son"
relationship with God, so that when he sins, he will be duly punished
7) Even when future kings (in David's seat) commit iniquity, God will keep the Davidic
dynasty intact, and not terminate it as He did with Saul's kingship


Reference: http://thejewishhome.org...;(Download the PDF "Genealogical scams and flim-flams).

Contention 2: Crucified Messiah?

Jesus was supposedly crucified, and it seems that this was one of my opponent's questions for me. The fact that Jesus was crucified proves that he was NO MESSIAH!
(P1) He that is hung on a tree is accursed of God.
(P2) Jesus was crucified.
(C) Therefore, he was accursed by God and thus cannot be messiah.

"But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you sall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.

Because Jesus was hanged on a cross, he could not have been Messiah.

Contention 3: Jesus is not messiah because he failed to complete the messianic prophecies!

(P1) The messiah will fulfill all the messianic prophecies.
(P2) Jesus did NOT complete the messianic prophecies.
(C) Therefore, Jesus is not messiah.

I believe that this is the most compelling case that I will make. Jesus could NOT be Messiah because he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies. In order to understand this, we need to understand who the messiah will be and what the messiah will (supposedly) do.

The messiah will:
  1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
  2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
  3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
  4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the messiah.

Jesus failed to complete any of the three, therefore, he is not messiah.

Reference: http://www.aish.com...;

Jesus is clearly not messiah.

Thank you.

jpvn14

Pro

Cons arguements

Wrong Lineage

If you lok at Matthew 1, here is what it says:

This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b]the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

Jesus had various credentials to support His claims to being Messiah, God's son. One credential often overlooked, one of the most profound, is the fulfillment of prophecy in His life.

Over and over again Jesus appealed to the prophecies of the Old Testament to substantiate His claims as the Messiah. Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law." Here we have reference to the prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures (Luke 24:27).

Jesus said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44). He said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (John 5:46). He also said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" (John 8:56).

The apostles, the New Testament writers, etc., constantly appealed to fulfilled prophecy to substantiate the claims of Jesus as the Son of God, the Savior, the Messiah.

But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled (Acts 3:18).

And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures [meaning the Old Testaments], explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ" (Acts 17:2,3).

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures [in other words, Christ's death was prophesied in the Old Testament], and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3,4).

In the Old Testament there are sixty major messianic prophecies and approximately 270 ramifications that were fulfilled in one person, Jesus Christ. It is helpful to look at all these predictions fulfilled in Christ as His "address." You've probably never realized how important the details of you r name and address are -and yet these details set you apart from the five billion other people who also inhabit this planet.


3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son 18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e]did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

1. It clearly states that Josephs lineage is direct to Soloman.

2. It states that Mary is a virgin, and thus is not a usual to Jewish Traditions

Contention 2: Crucified Messiah

How did you come to the conclussion that he who is hung on a tree is accursed of God? God did not curse Him, God loved Him. (John 3:16) He also loved us. And Jesus had the chose if he wanted to be hung on the cross, he choose it so we could go to Heaven.

Jesus being crucified shows that He is the messiah, as the messiah takes away the sins of the world.

Contention 3:

1. You do realize He is talking about Heaven, and how everyone willknow He is the Mesiah when they are at the Judgment seat of Christ.

2. Antoher prophecy that He will fulfill

3. Another prophecy that will be fulfilled when God forms a New Jerusalem

4. When the apture comes that one will be fulfilled as well.

Pro's Arguments

Lets look at the prophecies already fulilled:

Daniel 9:25-26:

Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

Probability of fulfillment 1 in 10*5

Micah 5:2-

The prophet Micha will be named to the tiny village of Bethlehem were Jesus was born, 700 years in advance
1 in 10*5

Their are so may more prophecies that have been fulfilled


Thank you



Debate Round No. 2
Patzer24

Con

Thank you once again for your quick reply and superb conduct.

==PRO'S ARGUMENTS==

My opponent cites 2 references from the Hebrew Bible: Micha 5 to prove that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and Daniel 9 that "predicts" the time of the cross. Let us start with Micha 5.

Issues with Micha 5

1) Because you are born in Bethlehem does not mean you are Messiah.

--There were/are a lot of people born in Bethlehem. However, the fact is that it does not mean you are Messiah, thus because Jesus (may) have been born in Bethlehem, does not make him Messiah.

2) The passage is out of context.

--While this is a Messianic prophecy, it becomes clear that the person that is spoken of is a mortal man that is a king. Since Jesus is not and was never king, he cannot fulfill this particular prophecy.

"And [the Messiah] shall stand and feed his flock in the strength of the L--rd, in the majesty of the Name of the L--rd, his G--d; and they shall dwell, for then shall he be great to the ends of the earth." Micha 5:3

What do we know about the Messiah from these verses? (1) The messiah will be a king; (2) The L--rd will be his G--d; (3) Be great to the ends of the earth.

This is vastly different from Jesus, who was (supposedly) G-d incarnated. How can G-d have a G-d?

In Jesus' lifetime: The Temple and Jersualem were destroyed. 1,000,000 Jews died fighting, the rest were exiled. Therefore, Jesus was obviously not a conquering Messiah. [1]

3) This passage does not state where the Messiah will be born!

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me he who is to be ruler in Israel, and his origins are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore, He will give them up until the time when she who is in travail has brought forth; then the rest of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel.

Instead of giving the birth place of the Messiah, it is referring to the Messiah, who is a descendent of David that is an Ephrathite of Bethlehem. Bethlehem Ephrathah is a clan, not a city. Consider:

I Samuel 17:12, "Now David was the son of that Ephrathite of Bethlehem in Judah, whose name was Jesse..."
"Out of you shall come forth" does not mean that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, as the fathers of Christianity misinterpreted, but that he will descend from David, who was born there.

"His origins are from of old, from ancient days"-This denotes the great time span from David, who lived 2,900 years ago, until the Messiah comes.

"Therefore, He will give them up until the time when she who is in travail has brought forth"-The Jewish people will remain in exile until the Land of Israel repopulates itself with them. [2]

Daneil 9

Simply put, this is not a messianic prophecy. Notice that nowhere in the new testament do the writters use Daniel 9 as evidence.

I think my opponent is referring to this verse:

Seventy weeks are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to atone for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place. Know, therefore, and discern that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem until an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; then for sixty--two weeks,it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. And after the sixty--two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and be no more; and the people of a prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the Sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood; and until the end of the war, desolations are determined. And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease....

This is clearly not a messianic prophecy. I encourage my opponent to read source number 3 as it takes 8,000+ characters just to fully explain the prophecy. [3] I will dedicate some time in the next round to fully explain Daniel 9.

==CON'S ARGUMENTS==

I have argued the follwing:

1) Jesus had the wrong genealogy;
2) Jesus was crucified; and
3) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

My opponent really does not refute the fact that the lineages contradict each other. Joseph may have been from Solomon in one case, but a descendend from Nathan in another. Which is which?

"It states Mary is a virgin, and thus is not a usual to Jewish tradition."

Correct. Lineage is determined from the father. The mother (if that is what Luke is talking about) has NOTHING to do with the lineage. Therefore, Jesus did not fulfill this.

The fact is the virign birth is contradicted. I will explain later.

Crucified Messiah

"Jesus being crucified shows that he is the messiah..." Really? How so?

He who is hung on a tree is accursed of God is from the book of Deuteronomy.

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

In Romans 1:3, Paul states that , "[Jesus] was born of the seed of David."


It is important to note this contradiction. The word seed literally means "sperm." [4] This is quite funny for Paul to say, considering Jesus was supposedly born of a virgin.
[1] Drazin, Michoel. Their Hollow Inheritance: a Comprehensive Refutation of Christian Missionaries. Safed: G.M. Publications, 1995. Print.
[2] Ibid.
[3] http://www.drazin.com...;
[4]
Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for sperma (Strong's 4690)". Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2011. 26 Sep 2011. < http:// www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?
Strongs=G4690&t=KJV >
jpvn14

Pro

Just wanted to say that I Con gave some good arguments, but I still am able to prove that Jesus is the Messiah.


In Response to Micah 5

I agree. Lots of people were born in Bethlehem. But the accurcy that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is amazing! There are many places Jesus could've been born, but due to the fulfillmet of Micah, he was born in Bethlehem.

"This pssage is out of context"
I could not disagree more. Where is your proof that Jesus wasn't king? He was king of the Jews! He was even brought to death with that title.

"The Messiah will be a king" The Lord wwill be His God. He will be great to the ende earth.
That passage is completly correct! And yes, Jesus i God, but he wasn't God when he was on the earth. He was 100%human while he lived on the earth, therefore he could've had a God.

Jesus actually as a conquering God. Just not conquering in how you view it. He conquerred sin, death, defeat, and lies. I think he is a very conquerring.

Daniel 9

You are rgiht when you say they didn't use this as evidene, but why did the need to? There was always so much evidence anyways, that more would be over the top. After all, Jesus want us to make the decision for ourselves.

Cons Arguments

"The act is the virgin birth is contradicted" ....Please do explain, as I'm sure it is another of those "contradicted" parts that you claim.

Crucifed Messiah...

Here is my arguement regarding that issue:

Dying an accursed death

“Anyone who is hung on a tree is under God’s curse,” says Deuteronomy 21:23. Because of this verse, Jews considered any crucified person to be condemned by God. As Isaiah wrote, people would consider him “stricken by God.”

The Jewish leaders probably thought that Jesus’ disciples would give up after their leader was killed. And it happened just as they hoped — the crucifixion shattered the disciples’ hopes. They were dejected and said, “We had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21). But their hopes were dramatically restored when Jesus appeared to them after his resurrection, and at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit filled them with new conviction to proclaim salvation in Jesus Christ. They had unshakable faith in the least likely hero: a crucified Messiah.

Peter told the Jewish leaders, “The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree” (Acts 5:30). By using the word tree, Peter reminded the leaders about the curse involved in crucifixion. But the shame was not on Jesus, he said—it was on the people who crucified him. God had blessed Jesus because he did not deserve the curse he suffered. God had reversed the stigma.

Paul referred to the same curse in Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.’” Jesus became a curse on our behalf so we could escape the curse of the law, which is death. He became something he was not, so that we could become something we were not. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He became sin for us, so that we might be declared righteous through him. Because he suffered what we deserved, he redeemed us from the curse of the law. “The punishment that brought us peace was upon him.” Because he suffered death, we can enjoy peace with God.


enough said regarding that

Romans 1:3

It is just saying again that he is of the lineage of and descendant of David. "Seed" was used comletly differnt back then. As it was used to say that he is a descendant. It also says that He was of the literal seed, because Joseph is a descendant of David, so is Jesus.

Pro's arguments

HIS BIRTH

PROPHECY: Nearly 750 years before Christ's birth, the Old Testament Prophet Isaiah prophesied: "The Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN shall CONCEIVE, and bear a SON, and shall call His name Immanuel."--Isaiah 7:14.

FULFILLMENT: In exact FULFILLMENT of this prophecy, Mary was a young VIRGIN engaged to be married to Joseph, a carpenter of Nazareth, when the Angel Gabriel appeared to her saying that she would bear a child. "Then Mary said to the Angel, `How shall this be, seeing I have not laid with a man?' And the Angel answered, `The HOLY GHOST shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you! Therefore that holy One which shall be born of you shall be called the SON of GOD."--Luke 1:26-35. (Immanuel means "God with us", and for those of us who have received Jesus into our hearts, that's Who He IS: God is WITH us!)

PROPHECY: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall be upon His shoulder: And His NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the MIGHTY GOD, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace!"--Isaiah 9:6. (Prophecy given 740 B.C.)

FULFILLMENT: This shows that the ancient Jews, unlike most modern ones, believed that God had a SON--Who was to be born in the flesh and Whom the prophecy said was to be called "The Mighty GOD".

PROPHECY: Micah, prophesying in the eighth century B.C., predicted the exact village where the Messiah would be born: "You, BETHLEHEM, though you are small among the clans of Judah, yet out of you shall He come forth unto Me that is to be RULER over ISRAEL; Whose existence has been of old, from EVERLASTING."--Micah 5:2. (Prophecy given 710 B.C.)

FULFILLMENT: The Gospel says "Jesus was born in BETHLEHEM of JUDEA."--Matthew 2:1. Although the Jews knew that their Messiah was to be born there (Matthew 2:4-6), they didn't, as a nation, accept Jesus as their ruler. Nonetheless, the prophecy says that He "IS to BE ruler". This takes place spiritually now for those who voluntarily accept His Messiahship, and will SOON take place LITERALLY by FORCE at His Second Coming!

Jesus' existence, as the prophecy says, "has been of OLD, from EVERLASTING". Jesus said, "Before Abraham was (around 2,000 B.C.), I AM."--John 8:58. He was here referring to Himself as the eternal God Who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush as: "I AM THAT I AM"(Exodus 3:14), the eternal Son of God! (See also John 1:13,14.)

TRIUMPHAL ENTRY INTO JERUSALEM

PROPHECY: The Prophet Zechariah commanded the people by the Spirit of the Lord to: "REJOICE GREATLY, O daughter of Zion! SHOUT, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your KING comes unto you: RIGHTEOUS, and having SALVATION; meek, and riding upon a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."--Zechariah 9:9. (Prophecy given 487 B.C.)

FULFILLMENT: Five days before His crucifixion, as Jesus neared Jerusalem, He told His disciples, "Go into the village ahead of you, and at once you shall find a donkey tied there, and her colt with her: Untie them, and bring them to Me. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, and brought the donkey and the colt...and Jesus sat on them...and the multitudes that went ahead, and those that followed, SHOUTED, saying, `Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord!'"--Matthew 21:2-10.

Imagine!--The King of kings, God in the flesh, came riding into Jerusalem, meekly sitting on the lowly colt of a donkey, just as God's Prophet, Zechariah, had predicted over 500 years earlier!--And not only did JESUS fulfil this part of the prophecy, but the MULTITUDES of Jerusalem who "REJOICED GREATLY" and "SHOUTED" praises to Him as He entered the city were further proof that indeed, Jesus of Nazareth was "the KING" of whom Zechariah had prophesied!

Resources:

http://deeptruths.com...

http://www.gci.org...



Debate Round No. 3
Patzer24

Con

Thank you for showing superb conduct and good arguments throughout this debate.

Micha 5


My opponent drops the contention to show Jesus was messiah based upon this verse. In efforts to prove Jesus is Messiah, I feel this was a week "proof text"

"This pssage is out of context"
I could not disagree more. Where is your proof that Jesus wasn't king? He was king of the Jews! He was even brought to death with that title.

=> He was mocked with that title. That does not mean he is king. Furthermore, no-where was he even crowned king!

"The Messiah will be a king" The Lord wwill be His God. He will be great to the ende earth.
That passage is completly correct! And yes, Jesus i God, but he wasn't God when he was on the earth. He was 100%human while he lived on the earth, therefore he could've had a God.

=> There are so many things wrong with this assertion. Hebrews states, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Therefore, he cannot go from being G-d, to not being G-d. In addition, Micha re-affirms that G-d is always the same and is unchangable.

Jesus actually as a conquering God. Just not conquering in how you view it. He conquerred sin, death, defeat, and lies. I think he is a very conquerring.

=>
I do not quite understand.

Daniel 9

You are rgiht when you say they didn't use this as evidene, but why did the need to? There was always so much evidence anyways, that more would be over the top. After all, Jesus want us to make the decision for ourselves.

=>
My opponent drops the fact that it is not a messianic prophecy.
(See http://jewsforjudaism.org...) .
=> If the NT writers would have used it, it would have been a very strong proof text. Therefore, we can be quite certain that they did not understand it as a Messianic prophecy.


CON'S ARGUMENT


"The act is the virgin birth is contradicted" ....Please do explain, as I'm sure it is another of those "contradicted" parts that you claim.

=>
Romans 1:3 as stated later on in that round.

To answer the contradiction, my opponent states, "It is just saying again that he is of the lineage of and descendant of David. "Seed" was used comletly differnt back then. As it was used to say that he is a descendant. It also says that He was of the literal seed, because Joseph is a descendant of David, so is Jesus."

=> "Seed" ment "Sperm" or "Offspring" (Strong's) Therefore, according to Paul, it seems highly likely that he rejected belief in a virgin birth.

=> Jesus cannot be of the offspring of David because of the mythical "virgin birth." As stated earlier, it was the father that was vital in determining which Tribe a person was from

Romans 1:3

As pointed out earlier, "seed" meant "sperm." I point out in my debate with ReformedArsenal that the definition, according to Strong's is: the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny



jpvn14

Pro

Micah 5

In response to me saying that Jesus was king of the Jews, Con said,"He was mocked with that title. That does not mean he is king. Furthermore, no-where was he even crowned king!”

My opponent fails to see that Jesus isn’t a literal king as is accustomed nowadays. Jesus is the king of all things good. Unfortunately with all of the evil in this world, he wasn’t crowned.

Jesus entered into Jerusalem one week before He would be raised from the dead. He was the only king to enter into Jerusalem holding all the dreams and aspirations of the Jewish people, for a Messiah. Zechariah spoke of that day, visualized that day in Zechariah 9:9Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon a donkey, and upon a colt the foal of a donkey.”

“=> There are so many things wrong with this assertion. Hebrews states, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Therefore, he cannot go from being G-d, to not being G-d. In addition, Micah re-affirms that G-d is always the same and is unchangeable.”

See, what all humans don’t understand is that Jesus is 100% human, and 100% God. It’s God in three forms, the trinity, the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (our conscience). So His 100% human side gives Him the opportunity to have a God. This is just one of those things that is impossible to understand completely.

=> I do not quite understand.”

Well I’m saying that Jesus is a conquering God. He saved the lost from eternal hell (conquered evil), He conquers Satan’s lies, and He conquered our indifference toward Him. It just a different kind off conquering than what you are thinking of.

Daniel 9

=> My opponent drops the fact that it is not a messianic prophecy.”

Um….it sure is a Messianic prophecy, what are you talking about? It says that the Messiah will rebuild the streets, and walls, and make them even better than before. He will fulfill this on the second coming.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

-The Prince is referring to the Messiah.


=> If the NT writers would have used it, it would have been a very strong proof text. Therefore, we can be quite certain that they did not understand it as a Messianic prophecy.”

As I said before, they don’t need to use it! There is obviously so much evidence already.

=> "Seed" ment "Sperm" or "Offspring" (Strong's) Therefore, according to Paul, it seems highly likely that he rejected belief in a virgin birth.

Of the seed of David - Of the posterity or lineage of David. He was a descendant of David. David was perhaps the most illustrious of the kings of Israel. The promise to him was that there should not fail a man to sit on this throne; 1 Kings 2:4; 1 Kings 8:25; 1 Kings 9:5; 2 Chronicles 6:16. This ancient promise was understood as referring to the Messiah, and hence, in the New Testament he is called the descendant of David, and so much pains is taken to show that he was of his line; Luke 1:27; Matthew 9:27; Matthew 15:22; Matthew 12:23; Matthew 21:9, Matthew 21:15; Matthew 22:42, Matthew 22:45; John 7:42; 2 Timothy 2:8. As the Jews universally believed that the Messiah would be descended from David John 7:42, it was of great importance for the sacred writers to make it out clearly that Jesus of Nazareth was of that line and family. Hence, it happened, that though our Saviour was humble, and poor, and obscure, yet he had that on which no small part of the world have been accustomed so much to pride themselves, an illustrious ancestry. To a Jew there could be scarcely any honor so high as to be descended from the best of their kings; and it shows how little the Lord Jesus esteemed the honors of this world, that he could always evince his deep humility in circumstances where people are usually proud; and that when he spoke of the honors of this world, and told how little they were worth, he was not denouncing what was not within his reach.

-Again, definition of seed is used in a different way. But if you are not lenient on the definition of seed, the reason Paul said born of the seed of David, was because he wasn’t aware of the virgin birth till 30-60 years after he wrote it.

Pro’s Arguments

Messianic Jew: The Power of Prophecy in the Jewish Scriptures
Louis Lapides, a Hebrew scholar and Messianic Jew, is a well-known writer and speaker on Messianic prophecy in the Old Testament. One of the important pieces of evidence that convinced Lapides that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah of the Jews was the fulfillment of prophecy in the Jewish Scriptures themselves. There are over 300 prophecies concerning the coming Messiah (about 40 of which are very specific), and Jesus fulfilled every one. Some say this is just coincidence. Some say its Christian manipulation after-the-fact. Some say its interpretation out-of-context. However, all of these objections break down under investigation. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the reliability of the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, we now know with certainty that these Jewish prophecies pre-dated Jesus Christ, and that today's Old Testament translations are nearly identical to the ancient Hebrew texts. Lapides has said, "You know, I go through books that people write to try to tear down what we believe. That's not fun to do, but I spend the time to look at each objection individually and then to research the context and the wording in the original language. And every single time, the prophecies have stood up and shown themselves to be true."

http://www.allaboutreligion.org...

And a personal experience


Messianic Jews have created some wonderful ministries. It seems that some of the most powerful testimonies for Jesus come from Jewish people that discover that their Messiah has already come. Here are a couple of excerpts:

"The more I read the Bible and learned about God, the more I wanted to know Him. I began to follow the Old Testament laws so he would be pleased with me: I ate only kosher foods, stopped going to Friday night football games, and tried my best to keep all the commandments I could. As I continued to read the Bible, I came across verses about a promised Messiah. Now I knew a bit about the Messiah already from my Jewish upbringing. When I read about the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures, my curiosity was piqued. The picture was sketchy, but it slowly became frightfully clear. This Messiah that I was reading about in my own Jewish Bible sounded like you-know-who! I didn't know much about Jesus, but I did know that I wasn't supposed to believe in Him. I began trying to find other explanations for prophecies like Micah 5:2, which describes an Eternal One who would be born in Bethlehem; or Daniel 9, that pinpoints the time of Messiah's first coming; also Isaiah 53, which spoke of Messiah's life and his sacrifice for sin. As I tried to explain away these and many other prophecies, I found that I could not. I realized that if the Bible was true, then Jesus had to be the Jewish Messiah! I felt guilty simply having these thoughts! What if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? Then I would be committing idolatry! But what if He was? I would be denying God by not believing! I had to be totally sure, so I kept on studying and searching and trying to prove it wasn't so. After two years of struggling, I found myself drawn closer and closer to Jesus" (Zhava Glaser, Chosen People Ministries).

Con has not given me any reasonable arguments to back his belief up.

Debate Round No. 4
Patzer24

Con

Thank you for a good debate. In this debate, I have argued that Jesus is NOT the Messiah because:

1) His genealogy is incorrect;
2) He died an accursed death; and
3) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Since this is the final round, I will not be bringing up any new information. Rather, I will sumarize. I am sorry if I did not respond to all of your arguments, your arguments were a lot and took too much room to respond to, especially Daniel 9 in which it takes almost 8,000 characters to respond. I request a separate debate for Daniel 9.

The "Personal experience" argument makes no sense. Rather, this is a fallacious argument. Does it really matter if they have created good ministries in the eyes of Christians? No. In fact, we view them as decitful.

Furthermore, why is it that only messianic congregations can create those "wonderful ministries"? Personal experiences=/=Truth. Judaism is based upon a national revelation, not a personal one.

I stated my opponent contradicted the immutability of Jesus and G-d, this is how he responds: "See, what all humans don’t understand is that Jesus is 100% human, and 100% God. It’s God in three forms, the trinity, the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (our conscience). So His 100% human side gives Him the opportunity to have a God. This is just one of those things that is impossible to understand completely."

This is contradicted in Deuteronomy which states, "Here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One."

Zechariah 9:9Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon a donkey, and upon a colt the foal of a donkey.”

Simply put, if you read on and before, it is a military king returning from battle--obviously, Jesus did not fulfill it. In addition, Matthew has Jesus riding on TWO animals! Heck, the gospel's can't even agree on who found the animal!

Thank you.
jpvn14

Pro

In Respone to Zechariah 9:9

The text is a three line unit with a 1:(1:1) structure. The first line introduces the following two. The middle line has three parts, or versets, with the major caesura coming between the second and third versets. The first and last lines each have two parts. Internal semantic, syntactic, and morphological parallelisms characterize the opening and closing couplets. The lack of strict parallelisms across the middle, tripartite line serves to set off and highlight its content. The rhetorical peak of the unit is constituted by the central line.
Each verset of the whole is unfailingly made up of two to three stress units. Totals are indicated in the left margin opposite the Hebrew text. The pattern constitutes the meter of the unit. It is identical to that found elsewhere in ancient Hebrew verse.
The above translation pays no heed to the history of the text’s interpretation. It differs from other translations for that reason. Claims to the contrary notwithstanding, modern translations of the Hebrew Bible often calque ancient translations rather than directly translate the Hebrew text.
Translators are sometimes unaware of the degree to which their work is determined by tradition. To be sure, there is much to be said for embedding the work of translation within tradition. It situates the text within a stream of interpretation that has flowed without ceasing for more than two millennia.

In response to Jesus and God

You are right when the Bible says God is one. God is God. Jesus is God. Jesus=God. God=Jesus. Holy Spirit= God. Holy Spirit= Jesus. Jesus, God, Holy Spirit= God. God is one, he is just comprised of what we call a "trinity".

Personal experince

Actually, having a personal experience makes complete sense. There is no way you have a personal experience with no one. So to have a persoanl experience, it's obvious you need someone. That person is Jesus.

Conclusion

Altough my ultimate rreason fo this debate has failed (leading him to Christ), believe I should still win this debate, as I have backed up, and provided points that say Jesus is the Messiah.

Face it, there are NO facts or any sense that Jesus is not the Messiah. It's obvious he is!
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by jpvn14 5 years ago
jpvn14
yes, I assume so. Since this is my first debate, I'm not sure how good they are supposed to be, but compared to the others I have seen, this one is pretty good.
Posted by Patzer24 5 years ago
Patzer24
Thanks. Pretty good debate, eh?
Posted by jpvn14 5 years ago
jpvn14
no problem man. I have been busy to, but I always seem to have time right when you post your round.
Posted by Patzer24 5 years ago
Patzer24
Sorry for not having the full refutation ready. Been super busy.
Posted by Patzer24 5 years ago
Patzer24
They are good. I have seen them numerous times though, so it is rather easier for myself, as Jewish, to refute.
Posted by jpvn14 5 years ago
jpvn14
hey are very well done, and hard to defend. How do you like mine?
Posted by Patzer24 5 years ago
Patzer24
It is okay. Great debate :D how do you like my arguments?
Posted by jpvn14 5 years ago
jpvn14
I posted early, due to an unexpected turn of events
Posted by jpvn14 5 years ago
jpvn14
I will post my reply in like 10 hours
Posted by Patzer24 5 years ago
Patzer24
Indeed. I am going to respond tomorrow.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by jewgirl 5 years ago
jewgirl
Patzer24jpvn14Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Right off the bat pro Failed his BoP (see con in R2), and was on the defensive the whole time.
Vote Placed by Rednerrus 5 years ago
Rednerrus
Patzer24jpvn14Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguements are all based on misunderstandings of Christian teachings.
Vote Placed by dappleshade 5 years ago
dappleshade
Patzer24jpvn14Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Surprisingly Con accepted miracles. The conclusion won this for Con; the point for spelling and grammar is solely because of round 3.