The Instigator
Mr.Infidel
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Neonix
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

Jesus Sinned

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Neonix
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 748 times Debate No: 20726
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (5)

 

Mr.Infidel

Pro

Resolution

The New Testament records instances in which Jesus sinned.

Clarification

This debate is NOT about whether or not Jesus existed, nor is this a debate about whether or not Jesus is Messiah; but this is a debate about whether or not Jesus sinned.

Definitions

You may disagree with these definitions and adopt your own, but the following definitions are offered to clarify the resolution as I have expressed it.
  1. "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus" is a proposed historical human being whose character began the myth of the character of Jesus in the Christian gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The historical "Jesus" has a biographical profile roughly corresponding to the profile of the character of Jesus in the gospels (i.e. home town of Nazareth, baptism by John the Baptist, traveling preacher, twelve disciples and crucifixion in Jerusalem). [1]
  2. In Jewish theology, there are different types of sin [2]:
    1. Cheit: A Cheist is a missing of the mark (you tried to do something right but messed up).
    2. Avon (ovon): A leading astray, often by lust or uncontrollable urges.
    3. Pesha: To willfuly go against God.
      1. Also known as "intentional sin."

Positions of Opposing Contender

My contender must show that my arguments are false. I accept the entire burden of proof.

Rules
  1. Round 1 is acceptance only.
  2. Absolutely no ad hominem attacks: This will result in an automatic loss.
  3. Do not introduce new arguments in the last round.
  4. If you wish to forfeit, then please post it; do not let the time run out!

I wish my partner the best of luck.



1. ApostateAbe's definition: http://www.debate.org...;

2. https://apps.facebook.com...;

Neonix

Con

I accept. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate!

==Opening Arguments==

Contention 1: Jesus changed the Torah!

Deuteronomy 13:1 – All that I command you, take care to do it; you shall not add to it, and you shall not diminish from it.

Throughout the Torah, we are commanded that the Torah is an eternal law. The Bible uses the phrases "This shall be an eternal law for all generations" multiple times:

"This is an eternal law for all generations"

(Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28)

We are told in Deuteronomy 13 that whoever attempts to add to or remove from G-d's Law sall be immediately identified as a false prophet; no questions asked!

Sub point 1: Diviorice

Divorice is perfectly permitted in the Torah in certain circumstances. This is what the Torah says:

Leviticus 21:7, "They [the Priests] shall not take a wife who is a harlot, or defiled; nor shall they take a woman divoriced from her husband for he his holy to his God."

Numbers 30:10, "But every vow of a widow, and of her who is divorced, with which they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.

When a couple "falls out of love", we are told to do the following:

Deuteronomy 24:1-2, " When a man has taken aife, and married her, and it comes to pass that she fins no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanss in her; then let him write a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she has departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

What did Jesus say?


Matthew 5:31-32KJV) – (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife,
let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever
shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit
adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

According to JC, fornication is the only reason for divorice--a clear changing of G-d's law!

Contention 2: Racism

Matthew 15:22 records this account which shows the hypocrite that Jesus was:

"Just then a Canaanith woman who was from that region cried out to him "Take pity on me, master, Davi's son! My daughter is mentally ill (lit. Crazy), and she is suffering terribly!" But He [Jesus] completely ignored her. His students came and begged him "Get rid she keeps pestering us." And he replied "I was only sent to the house of Israel's lost sheep." Then she came again and bowed in front of him, saying, "Pleas help me, master!" But all he said was "It is wrong to take food from os own children and throw it to dogs!"

Here is this woman who begs jesus to help and JC COMPLETELY ignores her! The Torah teaches thatthe foreigner who lives among us" is to be treated with the exact same love and respect as any native Israelite!! (Israel 19:34)

Not only does this show that his discipes were cruel, narrow-minded bigots--but so was Jesus himself! Clearly this is NOT loving your neighbour as yourself! [3]

I rest my cas!

References

1. http://thejewishhome.org...

2. New Testament translated provided by Professor Mordochai http://mordochai.tripod.com...

3. No wonder when Jesus cried out "My God my God why have you forsaken me," nothing happened!

Neonix

Con

I'd like to thank Pro for such an excellent topic. It always brings me great joy to speak about God.

Pro has accepted the burden of proof that Jesus changed the Torah. I will conclusively counteract the arguments proposed by Pro.

Definition 1:

to·rah /ˈtōrə/ noun(in Judaism)

The law of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures (the Pentateuch).

A scroll containing this.




Point 1: I propose that Jesus did not change the Torah. The Torah of old is still the same complete functional document today. The content of the five books of the Torah almost mirror the King James translation perfectly, outside of chapterisation and order of appearance (which was arranged by the Catholic church, and later rebuked by Martin Luther).

"...the final canon of Scripture, thereafter recognised by all Christians for over 1,000 years, was settled on 28 August 397 AD by the Council of Carthage after the example set by St Cyril of Jerusalem in 350.



This Council met under the supervision of the Bishop of Carthage, North Africa, and the Western Roman Emperor, Flavius Honorius, the decrees being later approved by the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, who later also approved the definitive translation of St Jerome called the Vulgate."
Jesus Christ did not change the Torah. He never even mentions that the New Testament and the Torah should be joined together to form the Bible.

Point 2:

Jesus did not change the Torah. As Paul states, the Law is good. However, the Jews believe that the Messiah will herald a new law when he comes. (Since we cannot debate about Jesus being the Messiah, it makes this point easier to explain).

God will reveal a new law through his Messiah:

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good.

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their

brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them

everything I command him
.


19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself

will call him to account.

--Deut. 18:17-18

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I

delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to

the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will

not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice

on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope."


This is what God the LORD says-- he who created the heavens and

stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out

of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk

on it:

6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold

of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant

for the people and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to

release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to

another or my praise to idols.

9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I

declare;
before they spring into being I announce them to you."

Isaiah 42:1-9

1 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a

new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of

Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their


forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of

Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to

them," declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel

after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their

minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and

they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his


brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For

I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no

more."
(The Messiah has come at this point, to give the new law.)

-Jer 31:31-34

Conclusion: Jesus heralds the new law of God, but he did not change the Torah. The Torah still exists in it's original form, and the apostle Paul called the Torah good and holy.

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

< ------>

In response to arguments made by Pro:

"Jesus changed the law of divorce." -

Jesus did not change the law of divorce. he unpacked it, so that nobody could practice divorce for sinful reasons.

The divorce law states: That when a woman sins against her husband to the point where "she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her", he may divorce her.


This law is axiomatic. It's definition is obvious within itself. The term unclean speaks of great acts of sin. (Otherwise the Jews could have divorced every time the woman has her menstrual cycle, because that made her unclean for 7 days.)
So, this "unclean" act of the woman has to be great to merit divorce. It is obvious that a lot of Jews had used this "open" interpretation as an excuse to dump their wives and get new ones. That why Jesus unpacks the law, so that there is no mistake behind it's meaning: "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery:"

Conclusion:

Unless the woman has been unfaithful and has made herself seriously unclean through adultery, divorce is not an option. That is not an addition to the law. This is the definition of the law.

< ---------->

Pro quoted a text from Mathew about a woman who begged Jesus to heal her daughter:

" And his disciples came and begged him, saying, Get rid of her, she keeps pestering us."

And he replied "I was only sent to the house of Israel's lost sheep." Then she came again and bowed in front of him, saying, "Pleas help me, master!" But all he said was "It is wrong to take food from our own children and throw it to dogs!"

Pro has omitted the rest of the text to fool the voter. Did Jesus really abandon that woman to suffer? Here is the text:

She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

The Jews had a problem with racism. They hated Gentiles and they hated Samaritans even more (half-Jew, half-gentile or referring to people of Jewish lineage that did not go to Egypt). They used to call Gentiles and Samaritans "dogs", going so far as to pray for God to destroy them.

We can see in the beginning of the passage that the followers of Christ are disgusted by this "gentile" woman. They want Jesus to get rid of her. Jesus notices the racism in his followers and addresses it.
In front of the Jews (who have up until now only believed by signs and wonders), he tests the faith of the Gentile woman. The woman passes the test and Jesus grants her healing for her daughter because of her strong faith (faith WITHOUT signs and wonders to fuel it). He did this to shame his followers for judging her. Her faith was stronger than theirs, even though they live with him. This issue is revisited over, and over again. Oh ye of little faith.
<------------>
The Torah teaches that the foreigner who lives among us" is to be treated with the exact same love and respect as any native Israelite!! (Israel 19:34)

I agree. The Jew is supposed to do this. I find it interesting that it was not practiced. The Samaritans where not even allowed to drink from the same well as the Jews.

John 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?"

Didn't that just happen in America, less than 60 years ago? Segregated drinking fountain?
With that kind of faith in God, would you recognize the law bringer if he came?

Christ didn't sin. Everyone else did.
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Mr.Infidel forfeited this round.
Neonix

Con

Unfortunate. I will forfeit this round out of courtesy.
Debate Round No. 3
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Mr.Infidel forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Mr.Infidel forfeited this round.
Neonix

Con

Please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Neonix 4 years ago
Neonix
How to Vote

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Posted by Neonix 4 years ago
Neonix
Someone counter MasterKage. That's not a legal vote. The opponent clearly forfeited, no matter the reason. We need to stop voting like we don't read the rules.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by warpedfx 4 years ago
warpedfx
Mr.InfidelNeonixTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeit by pro hence goes to con.
Vote Placed by popculturepooka 4 years ago
popculturepooka
Mr.InfidelNeonixTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Countering MasterKage's votebomb.
Vote Placed by MasterKage 4 years ago
MasterKage
Mr.InfidelNeonixTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Tying this; Pro was not able to respond since he made a new account to change his name, hence the forfeits.
Vote Placed by royalpaladin 4 years ago
royalpaladin
Mr.InfidelNeonixTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by KRFournier 4 years ago
KRFournier
Mr.InfidelNeonixTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Argument and conduct to Con for Pro's forfeit.